Topic: civil 3d: swapping parts not updating in data shortcuts

[alanjt]

I have been working on a set new parts list, custom part fields, etc. Every thing has been working well enough, but today I noticed that if I data shortcut the network, any changes I make will not update (swap part). Another oddity I've noticed is that, if you swap a part, then edit any of the custom properties, you sort of lose the link to the proper part you've chosen.

A test is if you swap a part to a type e inlet, when you swap part on it again, it selects the correct type e part. However, if you then edit the material field to add an additional piece of info, then swap part just to see the swap part dialog, it will no longer select the type e, but be set as type c, which is the first item in that family.

I'm posting a link to my work-in-progress template folder. It includes my pipe styles / parts list dwg file, and the part list catalog I'm working on. If someone would give this a look, I would greatly appreciate it.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bqwsrekun899phc/AACrGL9cSITo1Gu_H_aAaZ6Sa?dl=0

I'm pretty desperate at this point, so any help would be most appreciative.

[alanjt]

Ok, now I'm even more confused. I tried an older template and part catalog (basically oTB), and if I try and swap parts after data shortcutting, it says the correct part in the part properties, but the style doesn't update. wth?
Is there some data reference setting I don't have checked?

[mjfarrell]

Does the style you want exist in BOTH files?

Is the Parts List the same in both files?

Further is that style the default in the parts list in the file where the referenced part appears?

[alanjt]

Does the style you want exist in BOTH files?

Yes. I copied over the parts list, which copies all referenced styles.

Is the Parts List the same in both files?

Yes. I copied it over before drefing the network.

Further is that style the default in the parts list in the file where the referenced part appears?

Yes. All defaults are setup in the parts list. All structures styles are set when you swap the part. None are set by just changing the style.

[mjfarrell]

let me see if I can get a chance to peep at your data today

[alanjt]

let me see if I can get a chance to peep at your data today

I would really appreciate any insight.
Everything was created in 2013.


While searching last night, I did come across a list of fixes for the 2014 service pack 1 that mentioned correcting the issue with styles not updating in the dref file, but I couldn't find anything for 2013. I don't remember ever having a problem in 2011, but I can't vouch for 2013.

[mjfarrell]

that might pose a challenge...I am not using 2013


what version are you hoping to resolve this issue for?

[alanjt]

that might pose a challenge...I am not using 2013


what version are you hoping to resolve this issue for?

Preferably 2013, but if I can get verification that it works in any version, I'd be happy. Are you still running 2014, or did you bite the bullet for 2015?
If upgrading is the fix, that's not an issue.

[mjfarrell]

that might pose a challenge...I am not using 2013


what version are you hoping to resolve this issue for?

Preferably 2013, but if I can get verification that it works in any version, I'd be happy. Are you still running 2014, or did you bite the bullet for 2015?
If upgrading is the fix, that's not an issue.

For the limited 'improvements' within 2015 we have decided to NOT use it at this time.  Stupid, I know but no good reason to disrupt projects
to finish beta testing 2015 for autodesk at this time.

[alanjt]

that might pose a challenge...I am not using 2013


what version are you hoping to resolve this issue for?

Preferably 2013, but if I can get verification that it works in any version, I'd be happy. Are you still running 2014, or did you bite the bullet for 2015?
If upgrading is the fix, that's not an issue.

For the limited 'improvements' within 2015 we have decided to NOT use it at this time.  Stupid, I know but no good reason to disrupt projects
to finish beta testing 2015 for autodesk at this time.

Good thought process.

I just opened a different project, swapped some parts and some update the dref and some don't. WTF? Is there some bug with 2013? I have the latest service pack.
I'd love for a 2014 user to test and tell me how it reacts.

[mjfarrell]

suspect order of operation....

part swapping, then saving, and closing source file

opening file with shortcuts present, synchronizing?

[alanjt]

suspect order of operation....

part swapping, then saving, and closing source file

opening file with shortcuts present, synchronizing?

I've tried it that way, but I've also tried it having both open, saving source, then clicking the synchronize bubble.

[alanjt]

*bump*

[mjfarrell]

haven't forgotten this...just finishing a large drainage area map today

will look at this in the AM Tuesday

*bump*

[alanjt]

haven't forgotten this...just finishing a large drainage area map today

will look at this in the AM Tuesday

*bump*

Thank you, Michael.
I wasn't being impatient. More than anything, I was bumping it in the hopes that others would see it, since I posted it right at the beginning of the holiday.

[mjfarrell]

did you create a special parts list?

or are there specific parts I should be looking at with this?

(after I clear up error regarding catalog not being set....when I'm sure that it is...! ?)

[mjfarrell]

Here is my results....


Set Catalog to yours

Open TEST.DWG suupplied

Edit 6" PVC pipe - Set to GAS MAIN

Create Pipe network


Save

Create Data shortcuts path/folder/and shortcuts

Save

Start new file

Drag and drop parts list from source (TEST.DWG)
Save
Create Reference to pipe network created above
Check Pipe properties - they Match source


Return to TEST.DWG

Edit Pipe properties for 6" PVC - set to Telephone/Fibre Optic

Swap all parts in network - for 6" PVC (same part - new optional properties)
Save

Return to file with reference to pipe network
Synchronize Reference

Check pipe properties - Optional Properties Match source (TEST.DWG)


this is in 2014 - we might have a 2013 to test this in somewhere (?)  for testing purposes

[mjfarrell]

similar test method with 2013 version same results...optional properties were updated upon synchronization.


What properties are not being updated on your side?
This test was done with a fresh install of 2013, no updates, service patches or hot fixes applied.

[alanjt]

The pipes aren't the issue, it's the structures.
Are you using the custom parts list? MB-P Storm
The issue occurs when I swap a part in the base (test.dwg) file, any drefed files will not update the structure style. The part properties will be correct, but the style doesn't update.

The other issue I've noticed is if you alter any of the custom properties, the part is no longer properly tied to the correct part when you execute the "swap part" command, but instead will default to the top item in the list. Honestly, I don't really care about this, except that it doesn't dref correctly, but instead uses the style tied to the first part in the list.

Example: set a type E inlet by swapping a part. Then edit a custom property. Now, if you swap part on it, when the swap part window comes up, it should have type e inlet selected, but instead it has type c inlet selected (the first part in the list).

[mjfarrell]

I think what you are seeing is what most have come to expect as 'normal' behavior for pipes and structures. (sad I know)

Further I don't believe that styles carry over with a dref at all....try it with a surface for example.
IF one changes the source surface style it will have no impact on the dref'ed surface style at all


I noticed just now that this happens with your 'P' bottom structure list; however not with the 'J' bottom structure list....so it isn't even consistent in that regard.

Let me devise some other tests.....and test

[alanjt]

What the hell? That's the entire point of being able to dref a pipe network. I mean, that's the entire reason for the existence for the parts list. How else can I change a type 1 inlet to a type 2 and it display correctly? They will have the same structure bottom, but the top will be different. I guess this is why FDOT went with building the entire structure top and only using a structure outline for the style. I just don't get it. The really strange part is, some times, when you swap a part and update in your dref file, it actually changes the style to match, but it's never consistent, and it doesn't always pick the correct style.
I have always tried to remain on Autodesk's side, but this has pushed me to the dark side.

With surfaces, it doesn't really matter if the style carries over since it's that portion may be different from drawing to drawing (color/etc.), but with the network, where your display is based on the style, you HAVE TO HAVE it update accordingly.

A user can't be expected to swap a part in the pipe network file, then go to each file the network is drefed in and update the display style.

What are other people doing to combat this?

[alanjt]

I really appreciate you spending time on this. I'm about to pull my hair out.

[mjfarrell]

delete the entire dref'ed net work


recreate the reference


curse silently and carry on

[alanjt]

What if you have profiles or cross sections? You'd lose all labels, etc.

[mjfarrell]

OR..revert to

ALL Pipe design data is in one file

XREF into sheets as required.


The more one works with pipes, the more one would want to take a pipe and do bodily harm to the programmers of the pipes modules.  (NOTE to FBI, seriously a joke, no actual threat implied)

[Dinosaur]

delete the entire dref'ed net work


recreate the reference


curse silently and carry on

I always felt better when I cursed LOUDLY and carried on after a session fighting pipes

[alanjt]

OR..revert to

ALL Pipe design data is in one file

XREF into sheets as required.


The more one works with pipes, the more one would want to take a pipe and do bodily harm to the programmers of the pipes modules.  (NOTE to FBI, seriously a joke, no actual threat implied)

But how do you deal with cross sections and profiles?

At this point, I question if it isn't just better to draw all pipes/structures the old way as just blocks/plines in the base file, then use a pipe network with outline styles that drawing everything on a no plot layer, but use the styles

[mjfarrell]

design first

draft last

Limit your edits after the drafting phase

[alanjt]

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-civil-3d-general/part-swapping-pipe-network-not-showing-correctly-in-data/m-p/3702746#M189479

Just stumbled across this. This has to be the dumbest bit of information I've ever read. I can't believe this is how pipe networks are designed.

[mjfarrell]

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-civil-3d-general/part-swapping-pipe-network-not-showing-correctly-in-data/m-p/3702746#M189479

Just stumbled across this. This has to be the dumbest bit of information I've ever read. I can't believe this is how pipe networks are designed.

Pipe networks (NOT WORKS)  are such a terrible attempt , and largely abandoned in place (my opinion) by autodesk.
The programmers should hang themselves in shame.

This goes towards my frustration that they are now investing so much energy into INFRAWORKS instead of fixing the 'design' tool we all already own.
Given that INFRAWORKS is or was initially released as "A visualization tool", NOT a design tool.
And now they want to somehow shoehorn a bunch of 'design' tools into it, at the expense of fixing the broken mess that is pipes of any nature inside Civil 3d.   

[alanjt]

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-civil-3d-general/part-swapping-pipe-network-not-showing-correctly-in-data/m-p/3702746#M189479

Just stumbled across this. This has to be the dumbest bit of information I've ever read. I can't believe this is how pipe networks are designed.

Pipe networks (NOT WORKS)  are such a terrible attempt , and largely abandoned in place (my opinion) by autodesk.
The programmers should hang themselves in shame.

This goes towards my frustration that they are now investing so much energy into INFRAWORKS instead of fixing the 'design' tool we all already own.
Given that INFRAWORKS is or was initially released as "A visualization tool", NOT a design tool.
And now they want to somehow shoehorn a bunch of 'design' tools into it, at the expense of fixing the broken mess that is pipes of any nature inside Civil 3d.

I would have argued with you until this headache. So much time wasted on this endeavor.

[Jeff_M]

So much time wasted on this endeavor.

Have you submitted a support request with Autodesk? I encourage you to do so, if not. They only know we, as end users, need something different than what they've programmed if they are told about it. And the more that report the same thing, the better chance we have of getting it fixed. Follow it up with emails to the support crew (look on the Infrastructure blog for their email addresses), possibly even to the Product Manager. Join the Beta team where the developers DO look at the forum posts.

And, yes, they ARE still developing and working on Civil3D. I was asked a number of times at AU what I thought could be added/changed to the API for programmers. I know there were some roundtable discussions to get input from end users as well (of which I only attended one due to other commitments).

[mjfarrell]

So much time wasted on this endeavor.

Have you submitted a support request with Autodesk? I encourage you to do so, if not. They only know we, as end users, need something different than what they've programmed if they are told about it. And the more that report the same thing, the better chance we have of getting it fixed. Follow it up with emails to the support crew (look on the Infrastructure blog for their email addresses), possibly even to the Product Manager. Join the Beta team where the developers DO look at the forum posts.

And, yes, they ARE still developing and working on Civil3D. I was asked a number of times at AU what I thought could be added/changed to the API for programmers. I know there were some roundtable discussions to get input from end users as well (of which I only attended one due to other commitments).

Jeff,  sorry but most of the beta stuff at present is ALL about INFRAWORKS, unless I'm reading the page totally wrong.

The API is great for developers, however core functionality and improvements to same seem to be no where on anyone's agenda.

Does anyone really think that they are not aware of the serious mess that pipes and part builder really are at this stage of the game?   Really? 

[Jeff_M]

Jeff,  sorry but most of the beta stuff at present is ALL about INFRAWORKS, unless I'm reading the page totally wrong.

The API is great for developers, however core functionality and improvements to same seem to be no where on anyone's agenda.

Does anyone really think that they are not aware of the serious mess that pipes and part builder really are at this stage of the game?   Really? 

I am a member of the Beta group. I do NOT use, test, or even look at anything that has to do with Infraworks. I am ONLY interested in Civil3D, so I'm thinking you are either reading the page wrong or not on the right one.

"Serious mess", really? I use the Pipe Networks (NOT Pressure pipes yet) with very few issues. Granted, I don't use the SSA tool so not sure how bad that back and forth trip is. I also rarely need to swap parts after creating sheets so had never noticed the issue Alan brought to light. AFAIC, this "mess" is far better than what I was using prior to C3D (LDT). Sure, there are some things I've learned to workaround. There are others that I wrote new commands to handle (PipeElevationEditor and SPAddPipesByPolyline in Sincpac, for two). And there are others that could/should be better/fixed. But I'm still far more productive with this mess than I would be without it at all.

[mjfarrell]

Jeff,  sorry but most of the beta stuff at present is ALL about INFRAWORKS, unless I'm reading the page totally wrong.

The API is great for developers, however core functionality and improvements to same seem to be no where on anyone's agenda.

Does anyone really think that they are not aware of the serious mess that pipes and part builder really are at this stage of the game?   Really? 

I am a member of the Beta group. I do NOT use, test, or even look at anything that has to do with Infraworks. I am ONLY interested in Civil3D, so I'm thinking you are either reading the page wrong or not on the right one.

"Serious mess", really? I use the Pipe Networks (NOT Pressure pipes yet) with very few issues. Granted, I don't use the SSA tool so not sure how bad that back and forth trip is. I also rarely need to swap parts after creating sheets so had never noticed the issue Alan brought to light. AFAIC, this "mess" is far better than what I was using prior to C3D (LDT). Sure, there are some things I've learned to workaround. There are others that I wrote new commands to handle (PipeElevationEditor and SPAddPipesByPolyline in Sincpac, for two). And there are others that could/should be better/fixed. But I'm still far more productive with this mess than I would be without it at all.

An obvious statement, any tool is better than none.
However a tool that is at best a 40% 'solution' this far into a products' life cycle is abysmal to me.
The pipes in Land desk top were better than civil 3d in that structure inverts would attach to the bottom of the structure without playing games in the label composer to force them. Further elevation editing and or maintaining slope across the network was so easy one need do nothing more than lower the start or end pipe in the run, and
ALL other pipes and structures would adjust.  But try lowering a pipe in C3D, and notice all other pipes just sit there like nothing ever happened.

The round trip into and out of SSA is so very poor, little if any information assigned within C3D makes the trip into SSA, and the same is true with information assigned in SSA making the trip back into C3D.  Also no real integration, so IF one edits the network another trip must be made because the network model is not linked to SSA in any
way.

And I wont even start on the poor implementation of Part Builder, largely unimproved since its initial release.

And pressure pipes are useless as a design tool as NO analysis of the network can be performed, i.e., they are little better than just drawing with polylines.
Because there are no analysis tools.  The part creator is far better, however add in no support for exporting pressure networks via LandXML those pipes are largely a dead end.


And please point me to any Civil 3D beta projects by title (that are not 'programming' related) and I'll see if I can find them.

[alanjt]

So much time wasted on this endeavor.

Have you submitted a support request with Autodesk? I encourage you to do so, if not. They only know we, as end users, need something different than what they've programmed if they are told about it. And the more that report the same thing, the better chance we have of getting it fixed. Follow it up with emails to the support crew (look on the Infrastructure blog for their email addresses), possibly even to the Product Manager. Join the Beta team where the developers DO look at the forum posts.

And, yes, they ARE still developing and working on Civil3D. I was asked a number of times at AU what I thought could be added/changed to the API for programmers. I know there were some roundtable discussions to get input from end users as well (of which I only attended one due to other commitments).

I have not. How can I do this?

[Jeff_M]

Submit a support case through the Subscription Center, if you are on subscription.
If not on subscription, use the Product Feedback form.
To request to be placed on the Beta team via email: civil3d.futures@autodesk.com

[alanjt]

Submit a support case through the Subscription Center, if you are on subscription.
If not on subscription, use the Product Feedback form.
To request to be placed on the Beta team via email: civil3d.futures@autodesk.com

I am on subscription. I'll do both first thing in the morning. Thank you, Jeff.

Out of curiosity, what is your method for pipe networks?

1. How do you display plan?
2. How do you deal with needing them in separate files (plan/profile, etc.)?
3. Having them in the base file and xrefing in and labeling would be perfect if it wasn't for the fact that I've encountered issues where profiles will not load on open if you have the pipe network(s) xrefed and drefed in (xrefed because they're in the base file and drefed in because you have to have them in the drawing to cut profiles.

For small jobs, I've been fine with just creating my profiles & cross sections in the same drawing as my pipe networks, so I never have a need to dref them, but with very large jobs where I have 100+ sheets, creating all profiles and cross sections in the same drawing, in addition to pipes, etc. just isn't practical. Hell, we recently did a 5 mile road design and it the plan/profile had to be cut into 10 files, 7 sheets per file. They were still laggy as hell, and that's after I extracted the contours, putting them in the base file for display, rather than drefing the surface in, because the size of the surface model kept crashing the files when you would try and print. Even with that, it still took a good 30 minutes to PDF the plan/profile sheets.

[BlackBox]

Submit a support case through the Subscription Center, if you are on subscription.
If not on subscription, use the Product Feedback form.
To request to be placed on the Beta team via email: civil3d.futures@autodesk.com

FWIW -

I've already posted a brief description of this issue, and a link to this thread 'elsewhere' in the hopes that the product team will view (and I'll leave it at that); but this is no substitute for Alan reporting through subscription center as Jeff has advised.

Cheers

[Jeff_M]

Submit a support case through the Subscription Center, if you are on subscription.
If not on subscription, use the Product Feedback form.
To request to be placed on the Beta team via email: civil3d.futures@autodesk.com

I am on subscription. I'll do both first thing in the morning. Thank you, Jeff.

Out of curiosity, what is your method for pipe networks?

1. How do you display plan?
2. How do you deal with needing them in separate files (plan/profile, etc.)?
3. Having them in the base file and xrefing in and labeling would be perfect if it wasn't for the fact that I've encountered issues where profiles will not load on open if you have the pipe network(s) xrefed and drefed in (xrefed because they're in the base file and drefed in because you have to have them in the drawing to cut profiles.

You're welcome, Alan. I used to use the combination of Xref/Dref for the pipe networks. Until sp3 for C3D2012 broke that ability by not fully synchronizing Drefs when that situation is encountered. So I changed my workflow by having a drawing for my pipes only that is only Xrefed to drawings not needing Dref's (such as a drawing with the sewer & water laterals which are just dumb blocks). I then use Drefs only for the Plan/Profile output sheets. However, as I previously mentioned, I rarely need to swap network parts after I've created my sheets so have not experienced the style issue you've reported.

I HAVE had an issue where the structure styles are incorrect when I first create the Dref's in my sheets. In fact, the last big project I worked on had this issue with every sheet, where all of my Curb Inlets came in with the first style in the rectangular structure parts list instead of the style defined in the master drawing. I had to fix this in every sheet created, and this was in C3D2012-SP3. I suspect this is related to what you are seeing. I did not report this as a bug since it was in an older version, and have not checked if it still occurs in the newer versions.

[mjfarrell]

it does