Topic: What's the next Milestone for the swamp?

[jbuzbee]

From this thread:
http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=37351.0

This site is a great resource.  A great place to learn and share.  But what's next?

As discussed with se7en, it seems to me that a fair amount could be achieved through deliberate, planned, and managed collaboration.  I mean a group getting together with an idea, developing an abstract, resource management planning, appointing a manager, and start developing with regular chats here, in public, for everyone to learn.  Start off small and develop the collaborative process: focus on that first, not coming up with a jaw dropping project.  Once people get the hang of collaborating, then delve into the complex stuff.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  The key to a great collaboration is everyone is doing what they want, what they're good at, with a balance to the overall needs of the project.  Putting the right people together could really produce some interesting stuff. 

Just a thought . . ..
 

[JohnK]

I vote: a library of code which can be used for Autolisp (both flavors) or OpenDCL. In short, writing theSwamp's version of--or replacing--the STDLib (from Reni Urban).

This way:
1. People of all "levels" can contribute.
2. People can use "it" several different ways (learn from, develop with, etc.).
3. We can put the overlooked SVN feature of this site to use.

[Krushert]

I vote: a library of code which can be used for Autolisp (both flavors) or OpenDCL. In short, writing theSwamp's version of--or replacing--the STDLib (from Reni Urban).

This way:
1. People of all "levels" can contribute.
2. People can use "it" several different ways (learn from, develop with, etc.).
3. We can put the overlooked SVN feature of this site to use.

What is SVN?  Is it some new diabolical tool developed by that Se7en madman?       

[alanjt]

We started a group collaboration of rewriting all the ACET-* Express Tool subroutines, but it didn't last long.

[JohnK]

What is SVN?  Is it some new diabolical tool developed by that Se7en madman?       

yeah kinda. But i put the description and documents for it somewhere on the internet. If there was only a way to find them amongst all that other stuff.

...Okay, that was a bad joke; I should have just stuck with the usual "let google be your guide" or something like that. sorry for the bad joke; its late and im going home now.

 

[JohnK]

We started a group collaboration of rewriting all the ACET-* Express Tool subroutines, but it didn't last long.

Okay this may sound mean but its really not...well it could be--i didnt mean it that way--but i wil let you decide for yourself (besides, you are a big boy you can take a little "shot" once and a while). If it helps, read my reply below and apply a Joe Pesci voice.


Yeah, way to contribute to the conversation. Would you like to offer anything constructive now?

[barc]

excellent, a one-stop-shop for your friendly neighborhood code thief (that'd be me)  It has my vote   .... where do I vote?

[JohnK]

excellent, a one-stop-shop for your friendly neighborhood code thief (that'd be me)  It has my vote   .... where do I vote?

lmao

You dont get one. Not untill you get as many posts as Bill Gates has dollar bills.

[barc]

[mumble] crud frelling newbie [/mumble]

[dgorsman]

I don't have a *whole* lot of time, but I need experience in project management both for upcoming work and a minor crusade that needs to be started.     And I can use experience with SVN.

I'll contribute where I can in the areas of coordination, planning, and management.  Technically I can also contribute some expertise in XML/XSLT (yeah, I'm evangelizing a bit lately  :whistle: ).

[JohnK]

[mumble] crud frelling newbie [/mumble]

lol Again with the humor!? I think you and I will get along just fine (just don't get all touchy-feely on me).

[Jeff H]

Maybe follow the guidelines and structure @ codeplex.com as I have seen some good and useful things created there.
Of course do it here at the Swamp

[JohnK]

Okay now that I've been home (and tested something on Linux) I think i should be totally upfront about my suggestion. I kinda got "something up my sleeve".

Allow me to explain myself better. One major problem with the previous attempt at a library was the chances for creating what's called a "high coupled library". A few months back i wrote a tool that can help eliminate those chances (and some other problems as well). I would consider giving that tool away--to the community of course--if we do go forward with a group project (it doesn't have to be a STDLib). The tool I wrote a few months could best be described as a "Preprocessor" (please don't read too much into that; this tool is pretty "low-level").

[Daniel J. Ellis]

One major problem with the previous attempt at a library was the chances for creating what's called a "high coupled library". A few months back i wrote a tool that can help eliminate those chances (and some other problems as well). I would consider giving that tool away--to the community of course--if we do go forward with a group project (it doesn't have to be a STDLib). The tool I wrote a few months could best be described as a "Preprocessor" (please don't read too much into that; this tool is pretty "low-level").

Neither Google nor wikipedia have heard of "high coupled library."  I like that, very clever on your part: invent a probblem so you can generously provide a solution!!!

dJE

[pkohut]

One major problem with the previous attempt at a library was the chances for creating what's called a "high coupled library". A few months back i wrote a tool that can help eliminate those chances (and some other problems as well). I would consider giving that tool away--to the community of course--if we do go forward with a group project (it doesn't have to be a STDLib). The tool I wrote a few months could best be described as a "Preprocessor" (please don't read too much into that; this tool is pretty "low-level").

Neither Google nor wikipedia have heard of "high coupled library."  I like that, very clever on your part: invent a probblem so you can generously provide a solution!!!

dJE

"highly coupled code"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_%28computer_programming%29

[Mark]

For those asking about SVN. (ask me in a PM or do a search here for 'tortoise')

[JohnK]

Well that was short lived. I guess I'm going solo again.

I'm going back in my hole. See ya.

[jbuzbee]

sad.

[JohnK]

Project <NO-NAME>; Phase: alpha (concept)
Project Green Dragon; Phase: alpha (concept)

I have set up a small scale test library consisting of ~30 functions for me to find bottlenecks, test with, and plan my documentation and standard operations with.

For this initial concept phase my goal was to establish, and follow, the traditional *nix development strategy of using a Makefile. I choose this environment for several reasons a few being; I wanted the power of building, packaging, and deployment. I also reasoned that if I created a generic makefile, it could be used in multiple situations with very little editing.

I have tested my setup on both the Windows and Linux operating systems with very little problems.

I now have a good feel for the way I want my library to operate and I have multiple choices for deliverables.

Next Step is to name this project, develop some documentation, and plan it out.

[JohnK]

I am proud to announce this project officially has a nick name...err...official code name. 

Project Green Dragon
(c) Se7en

<LOGO HERE>
If I get around to drawing one

"Green" for "reuse".
"Dragon" because it was a symbol for battle.

*blink-blink* err...umm..."Reused Battle"..."Battle--"...no, no, no..."Recycled for Battle"...yeah that will do. Now my project sounds tough!

[JohnK]

Documentation is good 'nuff and automation is solid. I have ported this project over to Linux (that means that the line endings of all the files are different--[ http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~krueger/csc209h/tut/line-endings.html ]).

If anyone has code they would like to offer up to the cause, I would greatly appreciate it.

[pkohut]

Seven, I think you took the bull by the horns...but where's the beef?

I'm confused  Autolisp, C++, Brainfuck ... Linux, DOS, Windows!?!?!?
Makefiles 

[JohnK]

yes, makefiles; they are easier for me to use right now. However bat files can be used as well as the command line when i port this back to windows.

My library is structured like the C++ STD lib.

Project Green Dragon: preprocessor doc
<snip>

File names:
.lh     =       lisp header file
.ls     =       lisp source file
.lsp    =       final product

,----[ MainFile ]-
|
| ;#include print-line.lh
|
| (defun myfoo ( / )
|   (print-line "Hello") ;; function in the "print-line" header file
|   (princ)
|  )
`----

,----[ print-line.lh header ]-
|
| (defun print-line ( str )
|   (princ (strcat "\n" str))
|  )
`----

My preprocessor will read the input file and then read the required
"include" file and thuss generate a fully assembled output file to
load into AutoCAD or copy to a network folder.

,----[ assembled file ]-
|
| (defun print-line ( str )
|   (princ (strcat "\n" str))
|  )
|
| (defun myfoo ( / )
|   (print-line "Hello") ;; function in the "print-line" header file
|   (princ)
|  )
`----
<snip>

to be honest i don't really feel like sharing any beef right now...it doesn't matter. This project was never about the "beef", it was more about the "grabbing the bull by the horns" ...but with OTHER people.  Programming is supposed to be a group activity...I'm just going through the motions here (its not fun doing this alone).

[pkohut]

Project Green Dragon: preprocessor doc
<snip>

File names:
.lh     =       lisp header file
.ls     =       lisp source file
.lsp    =       final product

,----[ MainFile ]-
|
| ;#include print-line.lh
|
| (defun myfoo ( / )
|   (print-line "Hello") ;; function in the "print-line" header file
|   (princ)
|  )
`----

Got it! Understand now 

[jbuzbee]

I tried that with compiling to .fas but my poor memory and extreme lack of documentation made management impossible.  I like your idea though.

I've got a suite of ObjectDBX based routines I would be glad to donate if you have the need.  Let me know.

[JohnK]

`Mangment' (If we are talking about the same thing) doesnt seem to be a problem; ive created and tested on a higly coupled example i created and i got very good results.

Yes please. I will take any code i can get my hands on. You will have full credit (if you would provide at least one example of how you would like your name to appear in the header i would appreciate that as well).

I will take OpenDCL code as well if you would be willing to give that up too.

[dgorsman]

Instead of creating a header defun it might be better to either expand in-place with (function...) or create a nested defun:

Code: [Select]

(defun c:foo ( / )
   (CallMyFunc arg1 arg2)#INLINE#
)

(defun c:foo ( / )
   (function
      (lambda ( arg1 arg2 / )
         ...
      )
   )
)

... or ...


(defun c:foo ( / )
   (CallMyFunc arg1 arg2)#NESTED#
)


(defun c:foo ( / )
   (defun (CallMyFunc input1 input2 / )
      ...
   )

   (CallMyFunc arg1 arg2)
)



The end result isn't as effecient (redundant functions) as hand-written but that is the typical trade-off of automation.

Appending a (defun...) at the top of the file risks be re-defined by a later file load or accidentally re-defining something already in use, neither of which would be easily found by a beginner.  Or even an expert, if the result is auto-FAS'd.

But I do like the concept.

[JohnK]

The preprocessor will ``insert'' the include file where ever you decide to place it. It will also only `insert' an include only once.

That being said, this project is really about a standard library; the preprocessor is only a custom tool for constructing the product right now.

[jbuzbee]

I will take OpenDCL code as well if you would be willing to give that up too.

Give a little time and I'll put something a little more succinct together for you.

[JohnK]

I appreciate it. Take your time.

[Matt__W]

I am proud to announce this project officially has a nick name...err...official code name. 

Project Green Dragon
(c) Se7en

<LOGO HERE>
If I get around to drawing one

"Green" for "reuse".
"Dragon" because it was a symbol for battle.

*blink-blink* err...umm..."Reused Battle"..."Battle--"...no, no, no..."Recycled for Battle"...yeah that will do. Now my project sounds tough!

Project Puff the Magic Dragon

"Puff" for "weed".
"Dragon" because it was a symbol for.... ya know.... flying badasses... with fire and wings..... and stuff.

Duuuuudddeee..... ya know what's cool about dragons?  Nobody f**ks with 'em.  Imagine if Puff the Magic Dragon and Godzilla had a battle.... in space....  WOW!  That just blows the mind.  That battle would go on for like, EVER!  Floating around in space...  You know what I like about space?  There's so much space in space.  You could park your car anywhere!  I wonder what kind of car Godzilla drives.  I bet he drives like, a mini-van and stuff... ya know, so he can blend in with the rest of society.  It would suck to work at McDonald's when Godzilla comes to the drive-thru.... you'd be there forever and s**t making burgers and fries for him.  I don't think he'd buy a 'shake...probably lactose intolerant.  That'd be one expensive trip to Mickey D's.   Where's he keep his wallet?  I bet it's not an alligator skin wallet... he'd probably be offended.  Ya know what offends me?  Rainbows!!  They're so stupid... they just sit there up in the sky all high and mighty... Yup... HIGH.  Way up there where you can't touch them.... (♫ can't touch this... doo doo doo doooooo.... can't touch this ♫).   Who would want to touch MC Hammer anyways?  McHammer....  I bought one at the McHardware Store before.  You ever say the words 'lawn mower' over and over and over and over and over and over again until you can't remember what's the right way to say it?  'Mawn lower'.....'Mawl nower'....Where's that dragon?

[JohnK]

How about: *poof* goes my respect.

I'm already "down" and you go and "kick" me anyways. Thanks.

[Jeff H]

Cool little tool Se7en,

I could see how this would be very handy especially in a group project setting.

[JohnK]

I assume that you're referring to the preprocessor; yeah its cool and it only got better since I started the STDLib project (I made several changes to it while working on this project). What really makes it cool though is the use of it via a makefile. With one command (or double click) I can:
1. make my final product.
2. Archive the whole project/working directory.
3. Upload/move my lisp file(s) to the network.
4. ...anything else I can think of in any combination.

I like it so much (everything is very consistently done) I think I'm going to use it in my everyday work.

However, I think I'm killing the STDLib project. No one here obviously wants to work on a group project (whether it be a STDLib or some other thing) and im getting tired and confused of/at/about switching back and forth between all these languages by myself. I tried to start a group project but...meh. I'm not sure if people understand the point behind a group project or what so...whatever.  I'm gonna go back to not being here much.

see ya around.

[JohnK]

To complete the process of making a total fool of myself: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=37700.0

[Kerry]

To complete the process of making a total fool of myself: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=37700.0

Unfortunately I can't make the time to be involved with the project John ... looks like it would be fun and educational.

[JohnK]

it's cool thanx for the post.

[Kerry]

it's cool thanx for the post.

This video contains content from SME. It is not available in your country.

Sorry about that.

[JohnK]

Sorry about that.

Not that the effect will still be as funny/cool/whatever:
http://www.vimeo.com/7595969