Author Topic: Do we need vault?  (Read 2543 times)

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FengK

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Do we need vault?
« on: March 21, 2008, 08:27:56 PM »
Most of our projects (90%+) would only involve 3-4 engineers at most. If we want to use C3D on such projects, do we have to use Vault? Or are there significant benefits of using Vault? Thanks.

Dinosaur

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 08:58:00 PM »
We have at most, 3 people working on a Civil 3D project and I have not even installed Vault.  Data shortcuts can be managed quite well without its use.  That said, there are some who have installed Vault and are satisfied if not pleased with the benefits of its use.
There are a number of threads even here that discuss the relative merits of both positions.  Following is a list of topic links that may be helpful:
LINK
LINK
LINK

Mark

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 10:41:49 AM »
How do xrefs fit into the picture? I've never used Vault either, most of my previous C3D jobs were simple, in terms of multiple users. At my current job we use many xrefs! I'm guessing this can become a nightmare when you mix C3D objects into it.

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Dinosaur

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 11:29:57 AM »
Xrefs are no real problem - provided some thought is put into the layering methodology of the object styles.  These objects are similar to complex blocks that have the parent layer along with different layers used for the various components that control their display properties and visibility.  Also complicating modifying the display is the color and line type of these components in many of the provided styles has been set to a specific property rather than bylayer or byblock making manipulation through the xref quite difficult with unpredictable results.  It is best to just get out of the habit of using the old express tools method of freezing layers by pick as it rarely works as expected with Civil 3D objects, especially through xrefs.  I have been using the data references to bring a new instance of the objects into my working drawing and control the visiblity and display properties with the style definitions of the objects. 

Cathy

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 12:36:59 AM »
At least C3D users still seem to have a choice, unlike inventor users who are having vault jammed down their throats.   :-o

FengK

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 03:05:23 AM »
At my current job we use many xrefs! I'm guessing this can become a nightmare when you mix C3D objects into it.

I have the same fear. I don't want to use Vault unless I have to, but I don't like the alternative Date Shortcut either, at least not yet. It seems you can only create data shortcut for certain C3D objects, not all. For example, you can create data shortcut for Profile, but not Profile View. This is where I got confused. Within one drawing, is using both data shortcut and xref an acceptable approach, or I should only use one of them? If I only use xref, that I don't have control over all those styles for the C3D objects (alignment, profile, grading, etc.) in the xref. If I only use data shortcuts, it seems I can't get everything I want to show in my drawing. For example, the Profile View I mentioned above.

What did I miss? Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 03:41:55 AM by Kelie »

Dinosaur

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 03:14:18 PM »
. . . It seems you can only create data shortcut for certain C3D objects, not all. For example, you can create data shortcut for Profile, but not Profile View
Quite true, but I do not believe Vault will allow any more flexibility with referencing.

. . . Within one drawing, is using both data shortcut and xref an acceptable approach
Absolutely, in fact desirable.  The key is to keep labeling in your model to an absolute minimum and the object styles in the xref model set so the objects themselves can be easily frozen.  If at all possible, keep those objects in the xref model in a null display state unless you are actively working with them.  Something that is just becoming apparent as the first full Civil 3D projects are finishing the design phase is every label in the drawing being plotted AND in any xrefs regardless if they are frozen or not are regenerated before the plot commences.  This is also having a negative impact on drawing performance when regens become necessary.

. . . If I only use xref, that I don't have control over all those styles for the C3D objects (alignment, profile, grading, etc.) in the xref. If I only use data shortcuts, it seems I can't get everything I want to show in my drawing. For example, the Profile View I mentioned above
Exactly . . . I have been setting up separate multiple tabbed drawings for street, storm, grading and sanitary with the model trimmed as described.  I use a data reference for any relevant surfaces, alignments and profiles, creating (or duplicating for the streets) the profile views and labeling  in this drawing.  My next project will attempt to refine this to only one tab per drawing to determine which method will work best for my needs.

. . . What did I miss? Thanks.
Only the first 3 grueling years of fighting this program as it tries to mature.

FengK

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2008, 03:35:18 PM »
Stephen, Thanks a lot for your tips/suggestions. I'll try them out next week. What do you mean by "keep those objects in the xref model in a null display state unless you are actively working with them"? I'm not familiar with the term "null display state", I suppose you didn't mean "freeze" or "turn off". Each C3D object has a display state?

Dinosaur

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 04:11:22 PM »
Set up a style for the object that has the display property turned off for each element and specify that style for the object.  Several null display object styles are included in the templates provided by Autodesk if you are using one of those or want to copy or use one for reference in creating your own.

Layers and "freeze-thaw" "on-off" states are much less useful or predictable with Civil 3D - especially when picking an entity to alter it's layer state.  It works just often enough to keep you trying but can have very unintended consequences not readily apparent.  Layer 0 is especially vulnerable and often the only remedy will unravel the display changes you made.  I must emphasize that the picking of an entity to freeze or otherwise alter with regular AutoCAD functions is best avoided.

Each Civil 3D object can be assigned a variety of styles that alter the visibility, color line type, line weight, object style, etc. of every entity available to assign to that object.  If an object is exported as a data reference, the drawing(s) into which it is imported can assign any available style, regardless of how it is displayed (or not) in the parent drawing.  The same surface within a set of drawings could at the same time be seen as 2' contours, 5' contours, flow direction arrows, color coded elevation zones, a simple boundary to show its extents and nothing at all.  The same is basically true for all objects, though with perhaps fewer options.

FengK

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 12:22:33 PM »
Stephen, that is some quite useful/helpful tips. Thanks. I'll have to practice some of these before I ask more questions.

mjfarrell

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Re: Do we need vault?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 03:49:06 PM »
Short answer: NO

Long answer: NO

I ask rhetorically, what good is a document management suite, that lets a user close a file and STILL leaves it checked out?

Not a very good one.

Also keep in mind that this pig is more for VERSION control than it serves as project management suite.
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