Author Topic: vault and single user  (Read 5009 times)

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drizzt

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vault and single user
« on: October 18, 2007, 04:50:53 PM »
Finally, I have convinced the powers that be I need Civil 3D. :-) I will be installing sometime before the end of the year and I need some input on vault. I am the only user here, and it will more than likely stay that way.

So far, I do not see any advantage to using vault. Any feedback you people may have will be helpfull

sinc

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2007, 05:19:25 PM »
Vault has advantages and disadvantages.

The only way to get any modicum of Project Management is to install Vault - the core C3D product has absolutely no concept of a "project".  And while Data Shortcuts work, they are pretty clunky, and more-difficult to use and manage than Vault data references.

But using Vault has other drawbacks.  We need to be able to move projects between offices and work from home, which is problematic with Vault.  And since Vault keeps a historical record of every version of every drawing you stuff into it, and C3D drawings tend to be multi-MB files, the Vault can take up a lot of memory on your server.  This may have negative repercussions for your backups (assuming you have some sort of backup system in-place).

We are currently not using Vault, and are managing well enough.  The biggest problems we have are tracking which Survey Point numbers have been used in a Project, and our inability to create Data Shortcuts to Parcels.  But using the Vault does not help with the problems with Parcels, because Parcels can't be accessed with Vault data references, either.

drizzt

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2007, 05:29:15 PM »
Man, I am reading through all the other topics on vault! Scarry stuff!
I think I will try it without Vault and see if I really need it. My manual document management worked well with LDD 2000, why do I need to change it??

mjfarrell

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2007, 06:33:41 PM »
I strongly wish that Vault was either or, not either, nor. The original project functionality in C3D was just fine without throwing Vault in.  Now I wish they would give us a choice C3D projects, OR Vault, with a decent way to migrate to provide scalability.   
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Michael Farrell
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numa

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2007, 09:00:20 PM »
Is it possible for vault to snapshot (save version) of a file say, once a day?  as opposed to everytime a save is performed?  thanks.

mjfarrell

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2007, 09:41:42 PM »
one might be able to perform a mirror of the Vault Server contents for this purpose at a set time

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=6453129&linkID=9261340  might prove useful,  I have seen variants of scripts written to remove many of the extraneous backups Vault makes of files.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 09:46:29 PM by mjfarrell »
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Michael Farrell
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jpostlewait

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 07:48:37 PM »
How I learned not to hate Vault.
For the single user running by himself Vault could work fine with an external USB drive of say 80 G for somewhere around a hundred bucks. Just set the file store to the external drive and there ya go. Vault can be very handy, particularly early on when things tend to FUBAR often.
Or if you are into Virtual machines that also works nicely.
The scripts are IMO a clunky 90's approach to managing the file store but they work.
Same comment concerning back up.
Restore however is a complete disaster. Only thing that can be restored is the entire Vault.
Mike the Mirror option doesn't mirror the Database, at least the last time I checked so It's a pretty crappy option.
Enough of what it doesn't do How about what it does.
Early on in the learning process, and after all we are all early on in this, it's pretty easy to jack things up.
Vault provides an option to go back to where you were before things went South.
That one by itself can cost justify the expense of Vault. I've learned to just pay drive space as an insurance premium.
It's not perfect but sometimes it's well worth the time and trouble to implement it.
Numa's suggestion of a snapshot would work in a virtual environment but is not a feature of the product.

mjfarrell

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 08:21:58 PM »
JP, thanks for clarifying why I dislike Vault so much, and considering the migration path with each release.....

If you are new to C3D go get the Save My Button command http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=17552.msg212054#new
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Michael Farrell
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jpostlewait

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 08:39:00 PM »
I guess I missed the point.
Vault provides a little more functionality than a lisp routine that does a quick save.

mjfarrell

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 08:52:41 PM »
Yes, Vault does that, and it carries a bit of administrative overhead most users could really do without in order to achieve what worked in earlier versions without need of Vault. 
However if the user wants a quick easy way to get to BF (before FUBAR) then this utility does that for them. NO they will not get project management tools as such, or the overhead of Vault admin, however they will get their data back.
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Michael Farrell
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jpostlewait

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 09:04:26 PM »
You know that's what I used to think.
But the administrative overhead is close to squat.
Drive space is not but as I tried to point out drive space requirements can be met by many different means.
Don't get me wrong I still think Vault is in dire need of improvement in the Civil environment but It does have it's advantages.
So what do you recommend for larger user bases?

mjfarrell

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 09:11:41 PM »
Skill, and care.

Also a shift in the way the process is done.  Given the power in the product (C3D), One can limit the number of active users in any active project, such that the 'version control' mentality isn't an issue.  I invite you to go back and load an older version a behold the simplicity that it offered for project management, it was near perfect.  C3D is not an all hands on deck tool, and thus gangs of cad savants need not attack a project to meet its needs.

This is another area where MAP should work with C3D objects, yet fails, then the user could chose MAP as an admin tool as well.
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Michael Farrell
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jpostlewait

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 09:34:57 PM »
Go back and load an old version?
Crap Mike I can't do that.
That water passed under the bridge a while ago.
I have to deal with what is given now and in the future.
And I'm not a fan of keeping a copy of every frickin drawing ever done.
I purge those.
Vault is a flawed product but it does has it's uses.
Is it mandatory for successful use of the product? No.
But if you implement a Vault based solution It can be an asset.

sinc

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2007, 10:41:48 AM »
But the administrative overhead is close to squat.

That may be true for some users, but we have not found it to be true.

We are a small company with two offices, and only a few users in each office.  Our second office doesn't even have a server yet - it's just a few computers linked in a peer-to-peer network.

We have need of sharing projects between offices.  That is very problematic with Vault, especially given the state of our network.  Sounds like there are people offering WAN solutions, but when we start talking about that, we are already getting well-beyond the "close to squat" overhead.  The level of upgrading to our office network alone adds significant cost to the adoption of Civil-3D.  Not to mention, we don't really have an IT person, so that means I cannot work on other things, because I need to figure out how to get all this stuff working.  This adds significantly to the cost of adoption.

Not to mention backups.  We we were already having trouble with tape backups.  We can backup to an external drive, but that's not a secure backup.  Just in the last week, we've upgraded our network and instituted off-site backups hosted by a third party, but now that means we get charged per GB for our backups.  That means we have no desire for our projects to blow up into a huge Vault.  Since the design of Civil-3D forces us to include our complete symbol library inside of each drawing, even an empty drawing template is about 1MB.  So our project directories are already quite large.  Vault makes this problem much worse.

Then there is the fact that Vault forces the user to constantly worry about which DWG project elements are created in, since doing this improperly can lock down huge portions of the model.  This would completely remove the multi-user capability of the Vault, so it should be avoided, but it creates yet another thing the user needs to worry about.  When the user must concentrate on mechanics of Civil-3D like that, it distracts from the real work.

Then there is the constant check-in/check-out.  True, it isn't difficult, but it's annoying, and something we would rather not see in the program.  It is a distraction from the work flow, and provides no value to us.  It is merely something we are forced to do by the Vault.

As for disaster recovery, well you have a point there.  But this is going back to something else that should never happen - a DWG file should NEVER get corrupted.  Writing the data to a file should be one of the most-basic tasks this software does, and it should not be a constant source of problems.  But Autodesk software is by-far the buggiest software I've ever used in my life, so I guess corruption-free DWG files is too much to expect.  Still, needing to use Vault as "insurance" for the other problems in the software... well, that frankly sucks.

Then there is simply the fact that the concept of a "Project" is one of the most-basic concepts in this problem space.  It should be designed into the very core of the product.  For example, when we first start up the product, we should be able create a new Project, and define Project attributes such as Project Name, Client, etc.  Then we should be able to access these attributes in things like Fields and Reports.  When we go to perform any task that requires us to browse to a file, we should be able to immediately jump to the home directory of our current project, rather than needing all that constant excessive browsing.  On the Survey tab, we should see ONLY the survey database(s) for the current project, and not every survey database in the Vault.  There are many, many other ways that the concept of a "Project" should impact the way this program works.  But since PM is bandaged on to the very top of the program via Vault, none of this is possible, and the overall usability of the product suffers greatly.

Then there is the fact that Vault is really nothing but a document management program.  Including knowledge of Civil-3D elements in Vault is a programming error that will have recurring negative impacts for the developers at Autodesk.  And since Civil-3D basically gets its PM added in Vault, it is not possible to use other document management systems in place of Vault.  So if you are a large company who already has better document-management software than Vault, well, too bad.  You can't use that for your Civil-3D projects, you MUST use Vault.  That means you will now have TWO different pieces of document management software in your organization, which is again getting away from the "close to squat" administrative overhead.

I agree that there is value in using Vault.  Data Shortcuts are barely-functional, and horribly clunky - Vault is much nicer.  And there is NO PM AT ALL in C3D without the Vault.  But Autodesk could've done this in a completely different way, which would have given C3D users very nice PM, but it would not have involved the Vault at all.  They even could have created a radically different solution that would have created far better multi-user access to project elements, and it would not have forced the user to worry about which DWG files project elements were created in, and would not force the user to constantly check-in/check-out files while working.  That would have been a FAR better solution than the Vault hack they gave us.  But I guess we can only use the tools they chose to give us.  I personally feel that Vault is a huge error on Autodesk's part, but we need PM so badly that we would probably be using it if it weren't for the problems with sharing projects between offices, and the inability to work on projects from home when using Vault.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 10:44:33 AM by sinc »

jpostlewait

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Re: vault and single user
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2007, 05:02:01 PM »
Good points sinc.
But Having two small separated offices is always going to present problems and in that situation Vault is probably a deal breaker.
Maybe with Riverbeds and ProductStream replicator you could make it work but that is again a pricey situation that cost justifying would be difficult.
Our situation the offices are so separate that working on comman projects is rare.
We have to deal with our MEP departments who work all over the world and that is a very difficult problem. They expect to be able to open and edit files from a wireless connection in Guam. It's a little hard to meet those expectations.
Don't lay all of the expense of network upgrades at the feet of C3D. Network upgrades are a fact of life and a cost of doing business. If you don't have a network upgrade planned you're not keeping up.
We still use tape as the primary back up and disaster recovery solution. Been pretty dependable and granted the amount we have to backup grows exponentially we are almost keeping up. See above comment about network upgrades.

As for the rest what could and should really doesn't make much difference. You still have to deal with what is. A lot of people are trying to influence the direction that this shotgun marriage of Vault and C3D is going. I only hope something more workable happens in a couple years.