Author Topic: Management: Bringing Managers and Drafter up to level of exceptable levels  (Read 20202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Kerry

  • Mesozoic relic
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 11654
  • class keyThumper<T>:ILazy<T>

Michael,
I'm sure you are a perfectly fine teacher, but you are starting to sound like a used car salesman which is turning me right off.
kdub, kdub_nz in other timelines.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson

Michael,
I'm sure you are a perfectly fine teacher, but you are starting to sound like a used car salesman which is turning me right off.

I was answering a question.

Should I ignore a legitimate question?



Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

Kerry

  • Mesozoic relic
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 11654
  • class keyThumper<T>:ILazy<T>

Michael,
I'm sure you are a perfectly fine teacher, but you are starting to sound like a used car salesman which is turning me right off.

I was answering a question.

Should I ignore a legitimate question?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but sometimes trying to win every battle will lose you the war.
kdub, kdub_nz in other timelines.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

cadtag

  • Swamp Rat
  • Posts: 1152

Interesting set of comments here.  So let me drop in a couple of euros worth...

"The thing to remember about a self-made man is that he's the result of unskilled labor."

What one learns on their own is limited to their own experience. This is not to downplay in any sense the initiative and drive that brings people to the fore, but a simple observation.  What a person has no exposure to is not something they can learn.  To paraphrase Rumsfield, it's an unknown unknown.  What one knows about, but doesn't know how to do, is the known unknown.

A training program that takes into account the specific environment, skills, and discipline of the trainees can mitigate that effect to a degree.  And having a live human being with experience with the software and the industry is pretty important too.  an online html page really is not the same thing as an experienced instructor who can clarify, explain, and expand on the docs.


Bethrine,

"...after a certain point, the help file is no longer helpful and outside assistance of some sort is necessary."

I disagree. How do you think the trainers learned it all? Trusting training to spoon-feed you exactly what you might need to know is not a good way to learn.

Dave

Now it's my turn to disagree.  the help files for any software package are inherently limited in what they can accomplish.  Remember that the software documentation is generally developed pretty late in the game, when budgets are running down and qa/qc time is limited.  That's sorta the nature of the beast -- it can't be documented until it's done.  or as close to done as makes no matter.  Far to often I've run into vendor documentation that offers a vague description if a feature, and links to another page int eh docs, that offers an equally vague sentence, and then links back to the original page.    With AutoCAD online help being 'search drive', the problem is compounded, as one needs to get the right search term, which often requires one to know the answer before asking the question.  Just take a look at the Autodesk discussion forums, and see how many posts talk about missing dialogs.  But doing a search returns nothing relevant, and none of the responses mention FILEDIA.

Further, the Help can only describe what's in the software.  The docs can't offer value judgments or exhaustively describe the benefits/disadvantages of method A vs method B.  And I've yet to see CAD documentation from any vendor that really gets into the valuable stuff one has to learn to use the software effectively in a multi-organization multi-discipline scenario, or discuss adapting features to client/agency requirement.  They can't get into that level of detail.

But a competent trainer can.   An incompetent trainer who's limited to 'learning it all from the help files'can't.  CAD Training sessions that are limited to regurgitation of the on-line documentation is really not training worth having.  Neither is relying on the vendor docs to 'spoon feed you exactly what you might need to know'.

Tortiz,

"You can hide the cost of training but it there. You can say I learned it on my own but, I bet a lot of it was on the job. someone paid for it. You, with time and a computer / internet connection or at work on company time."

Can I share something with you? I've been out of work for almost 2 years. (I'm a carpenter.) Office survey is the direction I want to go. Should I wait until an employer is willing to train me, or should I dig into the Help Section, so that the next job that comes up, I can say, "Hell yeah, I can do that!" Which sort of employee would you want to hire?

Dave

While I applaud your initiative in proactively digging in and learning what you can on your own, please don't assume that will make you an expert in delivering the end product required.  Especially given your current employment status, it's very much worth your time and effort to do that, and yes, I'd much rather hire a go-getter than a chair warmer.  But the Help files will not make you an expert in ALTA surveys, nor will they educate you into the 'best' deliverables to hand off to the civil engineers doing the design.

Training will help, experience will help more -- at least in the arena of practice that the survey company deals with.  If they primarily focus on ALTA work - it's not going to educate you in FAA requirements or machine control.


Bottom line. in my opinion, go-getters who dig in and learn as much as they can are definitely ahead of the game.  But a trainer who offers a broader perspective in the industry as a whole is very worthwhile.  And a company that rejects training completely is not a company that cares about their staff member success.

Then again, I haven't had a job since the mid 80s.  I've had a career since then so perhaps my perspective is somewhat different from yours.
The only thing more dangerous to the liberty of a free people than big government is big business

Greg B

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 12417
  • Tell me a Joke!
How do the trainers gain their knowledge?

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
How do the trainers gain their knowledge?

The Autodesk vendors literally are given 'course ware' to read from.

However there is no experience to drive them to full and comprehensive understanding of best practices, etc.
As I said before often no better than the book they read from.

Others through a combination of studying the software, and applying it in the wild.


I'll stop before more accusations are cast my way.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

JNieman

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 1655
What one learns on their own is limited to their own experience.
That's such a non-statement that it really erases the foundation of your point.  When does anyone learn something that isn't limited to what they experience?  Why would self-improvement exclude one from learning from others' experience?  Ever read a book you didn't write?


Then again, I haven't had a job since the mid 80s.  I've had a career since then
:roll:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:26:57 PM by JNieman »

Dinosaur

  • Guest
How do the trainers gain their knowledge?
That depends entirely on the individual trainer and who writes his paycheck.  I call two of the biggest names in Autodesk product training friends ... close enough to have at least shared an evening worth of refreshment and discussion over the then current version of Civil 3D ... in different rooms and different times ... cities even ... still one of my best judgement calls ever.  One of these gentlemen, while an independent trainer, had participated on the product development team.  His depth of knowledge of the product is not in question nor is his ability to share that knowledge with his clients, students and the group of trainers he had brought into his company.  My other friend had spent a number of years bending Land Desktop to his will and when the 2004 pre-release of Civil 3D hit the mail boxes, he grabbed his disc and locked himself in his room with it.  After the dust had settled, he emerged with proof that to some degree the fool thing worked, what absolutely did NOT worked, which operations would throw an error and what might work to attempt recovery from the various errors ... yes, there were many.
My first friend while technically independent still was tied to the Autodesk corporate desire to go forth with dispensing only certain gems of wisdom with the various levels of training and support purchased and using the approved course ware with designed data sets proven to generate the prescribed results with the given procedure.  The second trainer would ask for a set of raw data from a representative project from his client well in advance of the scheduled classes.  Any necessary workflow changes were identified straight away.  Any known "gotcha"s likely to give surprising results  were covered along with how to avoid or recover from with only minimal disruption.  I am not sure how my first friend dealt with these issues but I am sure he had some success doing so given his number of satisfied customers.  The trouble is there being several corporate teams based with Autodesk vendors not privy to this knowledge and would just recite the course ware script verbatim along with the price list for the next levels of training and support.

Pointdump

  • Mosquito
  • Posts: 19
Cadtag,

"...the help files for any software package are inherently limited..."

Really? And how, exactly, would you know that?

"an online html page really is not the same thing as an experienced instructor who can clarify, explain, and expand on the docs."

Sniff! And when Cadtag looked upon the breadth of his CAD domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer.

Dave

Greg B

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 12417
  • Tell me a Joke!
How do the trainers gain their knowledge?
That depends entirely on the individual trainer and who writes his paycheck.  I call two of the biggest names in Autodesk product training friends ... close enough to have at least shared an evening worth of refreshment and discussion over the then current version of Civil 3D ... in different rooms and different times ... cities even ... still one of my best judgement calls ever.  One of these gentlemen, while an independent trainer, had participated on the product development team.  His depth of knowledge of the product is not in question nor is his ability to share that knowledge with his clients, students and the group of trainers he had brought into his company.  My other friend had spent a number of years bending Land Desktop to his will and when the 2004 pre-release of Civil 3D hit the mail boxes, he grabbed his disc and locked himself in his room with it.  After the dust had settled, he emerged with proof that to some degree the fool thing worked, what absolutely did NOT worked, which operations would throw an error and what might work to attempt recovery from the various errors ... yes, there were many.
My first friend while technically independent still was tied to the Autodesk corporate desire to go forth with dispensing only certain gems of wisdom with the various levels of training and support purchased and using the approved course ware with designed data sets proven to generate the prescribed results with the given procedure.  The second trainer would ask for a set of raw data from a representative project from his client well in advance of the scheduled classes.  Any necessary workflow changes were identified straight away.  Any known "gotcha"s likely to give surprising results  were covered along with how to avoid or recover from with only minimal disruption.  I am not sure how my first friend dealt with these issues but I am sure he had some success doing so given his number of satisfied customers.  The trouble is there being several corporate teams based with Autodesk vendors not privy to this knowledge and would just recite the course ware script verbatim along with the price list for the next levels of training and support.
How do the trainers gain their knowledge?

The Autodesk vendors literally are given 'course ware' to read from.

However there is no experience to drive them to full and comprehensive understanding of best practices, etc.
As I said before often no better than the book they read from.

Others through a combination of studying the software, and applying it in the wild.


I'll stop before more accusations are cast my way.

So these trainers took written material and basically did self training while working on the system to gain knowledge that they then pass along to other people (for a price).

I see NOTHING wrong with trainers, BUT if they can learn the software to that degree without being trained themselves, then anyone that wants to can do the same thing without needing trainers.  This has been stated before in this thread.

Help files, manuals, online courses, trainers, books.  They are all viable options to learn more about the software.

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Problem is you are assuming they have 'learned' the software.
When in fact the only skill they may be demonstrating is the ability
to read and follow directions.

Knowledge and ability to apply it in different cases is a completely different paradigm.


I know small children that can competently read to you from a book.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

Greg B

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 12417
  • Tell me a Joke!
Problem is you are assuming they have 'learned' the software.
When in fact the only skill they may be demonstrating is the ability
to read and follow directions.

Knowledge and ability to apply it in different cases is a completely different paradigm.


I know small children that can competently read to you from a book.

Huh...so are you assuming that people are only competently reading information on how to use the software, but not using that information without someone holding their hands and carefully explaining everything?

Greg B

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 12417
  • Tell me a Joke!
The thing that get's me the most is when people are managers that don't have the experience to bring the rest of the company to an level of efficiency that makes sense.

Getting back to the OP.  This quote is what gets me.  Everyone's definition of what "makes sense" is different.

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Problem is you are assuming they have 'learned' the software.
When in fact the only skill they may be demonstrating is the ability
to read and follow directions.

Knowledge and ability to apply it in different cases is a completely different paradigm.


I know small children that can competently read to you from a book.

Huh...so are you assuming that people are only competently reading information on how to use the software, but not using that information without someone holding their hands and carefully explaining everything?

Actually basing my comment on observations.
And a direct quote from last set of students in Botswana.
"We were very specific that the trainer have abilities like yours, that really knew how to use the software. Not like the last person they sent."

So they were sent someone, that was competent to read from a book, yet not knowledgeable enough about the software
to actually apply it beyond the scope of the book.

So yes I am making that generalization, as I have seen it in the wild.  I know it happens, and I know those types of trainers exists.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
The thing that get's me the most is when people are managers that don't have the experience to bring the rest of the company to an level of efficiency that makes sense.

Getting back to the OP.  This quote is what gets me.  Everyone's definition of what "makes sense" is different.

Suspecting what I think I know about Mr. Dough; I trust it sufficiently kacked that it must be one bizzarro wolrd he is trying to function in at this point for him to post such a comment.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/