Topic: Management: Bringing Managers and Drafter up to level of exceptable levels

[sourdough]

Hi All,
   I don't think there are many that have all the skills down for using Civil 3D, God knows I still have lots of room to keep learning. I would like to know how other companies keep up with training people for their organizations. The thing that get's me the most is when people are managers that don't have the experience to bring the rest of the company to an level of efficiency that makes sense. Where do you draw the line. I can't wait to hear your thoughts. Not using features in Civil 3D and replacing them with autocad only methods drives me crazy. Getting training from official, or friends is always a challenge either financially, or by just finding time to learn due to deadlines (that evil word we live by). Your thoughts.

Respectfully,
MJP

[mjfarrell]

Interesting point of view considering how many times you and I have discussed the need for training........


Some companies get a person like myself to come in and do periodic training for all staff members.
They then work with the software for some time to assimilate that knowledge.
Evaluate where they are, and then commission so more training.

A company must be committed to improve their staff skills, and this then improves their competitive advantage and profits.
Otherwise they are content to just grind it out.

A funny thing about training; many companies focus on the cost of training
with little or no regard that it WILL return dividends on the investment.
However they have no way to measure how much money they lose to inefficiency,
lost technical advantage over competition.  And no way to measure staff turnover
due to not investing in their employees and having them leave for a company that does ensure
that they get at least semi-annual access to skill training.

[Mark]

many companies focus on the cost of training with little or no regard that it WILL return dividends on the investment.

I would say most companies.

[mjfarrell]

Unfortunately I think a lot of this has to do with too much
bad training from so many 'from the book' trainers out there.

This was a topic that came up in my latest discussion with a group planning
a training session with myself.  There was expressed a bias against training
only from the book with limited or no ability to address real engineering or
survey project task.

Not to bang my own drum on this; part of the value that I bring to all of my classes
is the wide array of companies, projects and local conditions that I am exposed to.
This all translates into real usable application methods. 
And as I make it clear to most, I don't start the training believing I have all of the answers.
However I do my homework for each client and group of students to provide working (workable)
solutions to their particular project(s) challenges.

[Dinosaur]

Is a sensitive topic for me ... the small family owned company I was with when Civil 3D was emerging had a clearly stated policy of pursuing zero training, claiming that if they could not figure it out on their own it could never be useful to them.  When I tried to broach the topic, I was informed by the family en mass that that was perhaps the most stupid suggestion ever made in their building.  I took my own vacation time and piggybacked a training session from Michael with a company half a continent away all on my own nickle.  I learned enough to to use the program for nearly all of my work but lacking any support from on high, further understanding suffered and new features introduced with later releases were adopted slowly if at all.  It all ended mercifully with the housing crash and i have not opened the program since 2009.  The "family business" was reduced to the owner and his son, using the design functions but stick building documents with pure vanilla just like they wanted ... better them than me.

[Pointdump]

That expensive "training" is only needed for people too lazy to read the Help Section and do the Tutorials. Anyone who won't exert some effort on his own time to continue learning about his craft is not worth hiring.

Dave

[mjfarrell]

That expensive "training" is only needed for people too lazy to read the Help Section and do the Tutorials. Anyone who won't exert some effort on his own time to continue learning about his craft is not worth hiring.

Dave

Dave,
Your assertion that only 'lazy' people need training is a bit offensive.
Over the years I've met a great many very smart and motivated
people, that were still able to benefit from class.
The tutorials and the help file only go so far, and then you start needing
to do stuff that is beyond the scope of those tutorials; which are
at best only foundational.
Some of the people that have been in class have had years of working with Civil 3D,
yet there were still some remaining issues, or questions whose answered had eluded them.

Further the issue of time is not a commodity that all persons or companies have.
Their clients are not paying them to sit and read the help file, and after work ends
many have families and or other social engagements.
A project manager has far more cost effective things to do that read the help file.
And I would hate to hear the conversation should a person enter 40 hrs of non-billable
time under the entry of READING HELP FILE. 

[Locke]

Your assertion that only 'lazy' people need training is a bit offensive.
Over the years I've met a great many very smart and motivated
people, that were still able to benefit from class.
The tutorials and the help file only go so far, and then you start needing
to do stuff that is beyond the scope of those tutorials; which are
at best only foundational.
Some of the people that have been in class have had years of working with Civil 3D,
yet there were still some remaining issues, or questions whose answered had eluded them.

Seconded.

While I am an avid believer in self-help when it comes to learning, people are wired differently.  I performed poorly in a classroom setting, whereas others flourished.  At the end of the day, the concepts are the same, it's just the delivery mechanism that is different. 

[MP]

That expensive "training" is only needed for people too lazy to read the Help Section and do the Tutorials. Anyone who won't exert some effort on his own time to continue learning about his craft is not worth hiring.

Dave

Not an absolute but does ring of truth. Those without drive, determination and initiative cannot be saved by training.

[Tortiz]

I've been the CAD support for our group for 24 years now. the group is part of a large company with multi offices around the country. Our manager has let me train the team in multi CADD platforms. I not only out source the training but do a lot of in house training. The turnover is 0. I just hired a entry level CADD tech, the first in a long time and we expect to keep him for a long time. That said, during the years of the recession we were able to stay profitable and thrive because we were versatile and could work on any kind of job.  Training pays....

[cadtag]

the only thing more expensive than training your employees and having them leave, is NOT training your employees and having them stay.

the days when a reasonably astute person could pick up a professional level of CAD expertise by reading PC Magazine, computer shopper, Cadence, and Cadalyst have been history for a while.  the level of complexity in the software, as well as the increases in complexity from OS, networks, SANs, VMs, hardware, etc, has gone far beyond what can be gleaned in ones spare time.  No one knows it all, and no one ever will.  One who claims that is either deceiving the listener, or deluding themselves.

[Jeff H]

the only thing more expensive than training your employees and having them leave, is NOT training your employees and having them stay.

the days when a reasonably astute person could pick up a professional level of CAD expertise by reading PC Magazine, computer shopper, Cadence, and Cadalyst have been history for a while.  the level of complexity in the software, as well as the increases in complexity from OS, networks, SANs, VMs, hardware, etc, has gone far beyond what can be gleaned in ones spare time.  No one knows it all, and no one ever will.  One who claims that is either deceiving the listener, or deluding themselves.

Have to disagree I know it all.

[Tortiz]

Unless your working on a project by your self, everyone on the team has to have about the same level of expertize in the software or you playing to the lowest common denominator. As a simple example, if a person doesn't know how to change a dimension and explode it,  Its a cost to the project, might be small but it adds up over time.

[Pointdump]

mjfarrell,

Anyone unwilling to do the tutorials and read the Help Section, and yes, I mean on their own time, fully deserves the "lazy" label.

Notice I mentioned people who "need" training. I never said that training wouldn't benefit them. More power to you if your company is flush with money and can afford those overpriced training sessions.

The best CAD people don't wait for training. They tuck in and get after it. I've got no use for lazy people who whine that their company won't train them.

Dave

[Kerry]

< .. >
The best CAD people don't wait for training. They tuck in and get after it. I've got no use for lazy people who whine that their company won't train them.

Dave

I concur 100%