Author Topic: Tutorial Ideas  (Read 10054 times)

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Mark

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Tutorial Ideas
« on: September 14, 2007, 02:53:48 PM »
What part of C3D would you like to see a video tutorial on?
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Mark

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 02:56:14 PM »
I would like to see one on cut & fill with two surfaces. I've never worked with two surfaces ( existing & proposed ) so I'd like to see what you can do with them as in cut & fill.
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Guest

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 03:16:29 PM »
I would like to see one on cut & fill with two surfaces. I've never worked with two surfaces ( existing & proposed ) so I'd like to see what you can do with them as in cut & fill.

I would LOVE to see that.  We do that all the time here, and since I'm just getting into C3D, the timing is perfect.  Can you show the different depths of cut in different colors like you can in Land Desktop?  We do a lot of that for presentations.

dfarris75

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 04:06:57 PM »
• Structures and Piping
• Efficient use of C3D (aka Best Practices > process) for commercial, roadway, and sub-d's

jpostlewait

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 07:24:34 PM »
• Structures and Piping
• Efficient use of C3D (aka Best Practices > process) for commercial, roadway, and sub-d's


Topic one takes a day as long as you don't talk about part-builder.
Topic two is impossible. By that I mean It truly is a moving target. Best practice varies according to user ability and which SP you are on and a lot of other things.

Spell checker suggested replacement for Part-builder was parboiled. :lol:

Dinosaur

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 08:41:34 PM »
I don't know about that John.

Perhaps "best practices" would be a tad ambitious if not pretentious, but outlining a good efficient work flow for those three project types might be a possibility.  After three years, My shop still has not established an efficient work flow and it has become a major obstacle.

I've been spending more of the last year doing sanitary and storm sewer than anything else and they are not that bad.  Sanitary is almost a cake after you <establish> a couple of your standard parts and you start letting your labels do the kitty litter trick on the rough edges.  Storm is a still only about 80% with some notable problems I have been ranting about lately.  I don't think I can get a finished design document out for them yet, but I can get close enough to make it worth the effort.  For both you still have to inflate the carp out of your label library to keep the reviewers happy.  I am not going to admit to anybody how I am doing the water drawings but it IS using Civil 3D and it is at least adequate.

OK, part-builder is a boogey man if you insist, but it is not the same nightmare it was in 2006 when it was still undocumented and the wrong click would instantly hose your install.  I was finally driven to hold my nose and enter P-B to change the wall and floor thickness choices for my structures and after about 3 times of losing my nerve I saved the changes and it actually worked without any consequences.  Most of the time I can avoid going in there by making my labels lie.

-EDIT-

I forgot to make some suggestions . . . I really need some help mastering MAP so all the great tools there get dusted off and used first instead of when I remember they are there.  I can do an acceptable query, but topologies and cleanup are things I don't know well enough to remember they are an option.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:29:13 PM by DinØsaur »

TR

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 11:54:12 PM »
FYI, A good place to host (and possibly peruse) some tutorials would be http://showmedo.com/

dfarris75

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 01:07:13 PM »
I guess when it comes down to it a video tut on the "best practices" wouldn't really be necessary. A good outline showing the process using C3D in a text doc would be sufficient.

Dinosaur

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 07:23:54 PM »
I added these to the wrong thread when I was awake too late:

some other suggestions . . .
Civil 3D has created a layer netherworld with layers embedded into styles for objects that have their own layer all of which can be set in several different places and the whole thing can take a tumble by using a label or object style borrowed from a drawing dating prior to the latest template generation or worse yet having layer zero specified at some unexpected point.  Too many engineers and techs have become spoiled by the express tools layer manipulation tools and far too often these tools (and even standard layer manipulation) wreck absolute havoc in a Civil 3D drawing.  The key to the whole thing seems to reside in the object layer name settings as this is the very thing that has caused most of the problems.  Is there some way to get past these layer problems and allow the shortcuts many have come to rely on.

An optional direction is to trash the idea of controlling visibility and line weights with layers completely by using visibility states and settings within the style display dialog.  I am still thinking that this is the best long term solution especially with the 2008 addition of changing several properties within different viewports of the same drawing.  Is there a way to explain how to set up Civil 3D to work in this way?

One thing that has haunted me from the very first and has complete escaped the grasp of anyone I have worked with . . . I am seeing an absolute flood of styles and am at a loss for a good naming convention for them.  Most of the new ones are being created on the fly and by the time I have determined they perform to expectation, I have gone on to a new problem and at the end of the day find myself with a bunch of "copies of ..." or "child of ..." or "copy of child of copy of ... (3)" and so on . . .  Is there any way to just make it stop and be a good descriptive name?  More important is there a way to get rid of the ones that have been improved upon so they do not clog up the template and be used inadvertently in new projects?

jpostlewait

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 08:54:06 PM »
Styles creation and the Management of them is definitely an area of concern.
Long time ago I offered the opinion that with flexibility comes complexity and they are still intertwined.
Don't have a good answer Dino. It's currently a work in progress.

sinc

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 11:05:42 AM »
I would like to see one on cut & fill with two surfaces. I've never worked with two surfaces ( existing & proposed ) so I'd like to see what you can do with them as in cut & fill.

I would LOVE to see that.  We do that all the time here, and since I'm just getting into C3D, the timing is perfect.  Can you show the different depths of cut in different colors like you can in Land Desktop?  We do a lot of that for presentations.

The basics of this are incredibly simple.  When you create a new surface, you have a choice of four different types of surfaces in the upper-left of the Create Surface dialog.  Two are for "normal" surfaces, and two are for "volume" surfaces.

Start by creating the two surfaces you want to compare (e.g., an EG surface and FG surface).  Then create a new volume surface.  You can create a grid volume surface, basically the same as the grid volume in LDT, or a TIN volume, basically the same thing as a composite volume in LDT.  Then select your EG surface and FG surface as the comparison surfaces for your volume surface, and you're done.

Of course, that doesn't get into the details of how to get the colors looking the way you want.  That's actually the more-difficult part, that takes some fiddling with styles.  Once you have your styles created, though, it becomes quite simple.

So the bulk of a video on this subject would actually become a tutorial in how to define the styles for volume surfaces, along with how to create the styles for the legend table.

There's also a bug in the program that puts the little color blocks in the legend table on the current layer.  So you have to make sure you set the correct layer current BEFORE you create your legend table, so those little color blocks get created on the right layer.

sinc

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 11:13:00 AM »

An optional direction is to trash the idea of controlling visibility and line weights with layers completely by using visibility states and settings within the style display dialog.  I am still thinking that this is the best long term solution especially with the 2008 addition of changing several properties within different viewports of the same drawing.  Is there a way to explain how to set up Civil 3D to work in this way?


After messing with this for a while, I gave up on the idea.

The basic problem is that we share too many drawings with other companies, and so far, NONE of them are using Civil-3D.  So we have to make sure that we get things so that when we export a drawing to Vanilla Autocad format, things end up on different layers in some sort of sane manner.  If too many things ended up mashed together on a small set of layers and made the drawings too difficult to work with for those other companies, we would probably start losing clients.

So that means that the important part of most of our styles is the layer that components get put on, and the rest of the attributes in the style are usually set to ByLayer.  There are exceptions to this, particularly in things like tables (where we put lots of things on the same layer, and use the Lineweight property in the style), but the bulk of our styles basically only control what layer items get placed on.

If we ever reached the point where everyone we worked with was using Civil-3D, then we might move to the point where we do more things with the Styles and use far fewer layers.  But I don't see that happening any time soon.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 11:14:01 AM by sinc »

mjfarrell

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Styles
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 11:55:15 AM »
This area of C3D is rather interesting to me.  I like to think of a song lyric that goes "God Made an Angel, each a little flawed" when it come to objects and styles. As they are not exactly a Chicken or the Egg type question. In a prefect world all settings would be set already by the application  and one would use them (chicken), or one would set all those settings first before ever using the product (egg).  The challenge with trying to create your own chicken is, face it, that you simply do not know how this turkey (C3D) is built.

To be honest, the simplest approach to using it would be to NOT use any of the supplied NCS templates and use the Object Style to control everything, and leave it all on layer zero. To some the last sentence is blasphemy; and I am full aware that this presents huge challenges with NON C3D users being able to use the data that this presents when "Exported to AutoCAD".  This let's you create most everything from scratch and along the way gather a much deeper knowledge of just how it all comes together, this let's you create your own chicken, or raptor depending on how much you put in your drawing template (egg).  So far I'm leaning heavily towards a combined approach of full layer control of all subcomponents as BYLAYER, so that style changes happen at the layer level not the object because it's set that way in the object.


To all that I train to use C3D, my mantra is "Do not let Styles stand in the way of using the software, because you can not decide on styles until you know what it is giving you and deciding how you want to control it. And then we get to the heart of DinØs real question, the creating and naming of styles.  I suggest this, that there is a two person team that creates, or reviews all styles prior to adding them to the template.  That the users working on the "pilot project" or any and all projects be educated and involved in the styles creation thereby increasing the knowledgebase and expediting the process.  The two person minimum for styles is that unless you can talk to your self when things don't make sense, and yourself makes more sense than you do, don't work at this alone, or I can send you a jacket with long sleeves and a lot of shiny buckles.  

All of that being said follow these rules:

In the naming of any Style or Object (Assemblies, Surfaces), keep is short yet descriptive.  Simple is best; imagine that some idiot (like me) were to walk in to your office and sit down and try to work with your data, could they? Or are you and they losing productivity as you explain your naming convention?  If you have Standard cross section names in a manual, then name your assemblies some derivative of that. And of single most importance: After naming your style (please) fill in the DESCRIPTION field telling the user everything about that style that you possibly can.
Example Surface Style name:

EG Plan 1'-5' Contours

Description

Use this style for All Existing ground models that appear in plan views.
1' and 5' Contours are turned on, all other elements in 2d and 3d display modes are off.

If you do not fill out the descriptions, it makes it hard for everyone to use, including you. Just a keep thinking about who will use it, and name those objects accordingly.  When in doubt, ask yourself. "Is this name so simple that that idiot on the web would know what it is"?


When it comes to notes, and styles and their children; this would be an easier answer if the software permitted one to create children of all styles. Perhaps the design team can get those styles some fertility treatments so that they can spawn child styles as well.  Where children are permitted, ask the question what is this class of note for, AND do I want to control the whole family's' properties (yes) or do I want to modify the properties of each one individually. The short answer is where allowed lean towards Families of styles rather than a population of singles.

Timbuk 3 Lyrics courtesy of : http://www.lyricsondemand.com/

God Made An Angel

God made an angel, He liked what he saw
He made another, but with a tiny flaw
That went unnoticed, so He made some more
Each one less perfect than the one before

Malice in Wonderland
Days of guns and roses
Welcome to the city of
The nightclub that never closes
Daddy's little girl, she likes to dance
She always was a rebel
Daddy says she looks like hell
She might as well be dancin' with the devil

God made an angel, He liked what he saw
He made another, but with a tiny flaw
That went unnoticed, so He made some more
Each one less perfect than the one before

Gidget goes to Babylon
Blows all her money on a shopping spree
She likes old things, new things
Whatever she can get dirt cheap
She's quite the wheeler-dealer
She's got the bug and she can't control it
She bought the Holy Grail at a garage sale
She practically stole it

God made an angel

Now daddy's little girl don't say a word
She just sits there on the sofa
Lately she's been hangin' out
With that cross-dressin' counter-culture
Guru cassanova

God made an angel, He liked what he saw
He made another, but with a tiny flaw
That went unnoticed, so He made some more
Each one less perfect than the one before




« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 01:13:37 PM by mjfarrell »
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 08:44:13 PM »
Yes, those discussions when limited to just one's self can be problematic.  I occasionally offend myself and wind up not talking at all for days.  The rest of the office thinks I am mad at them . . . well usually I am, but not THAT mad and mostly about something else . . .

. . . are too, and it does have to do with C3D . . . NO, be quite . . . grumpy grumpy grumpy . . . STOP IT, they are starting to point and giggle . . . don't mind him - he's just ticked because they cut off his email access today . . . will you just - ARRGH!

Dinosaur

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Re: Tutorial Ideas
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 09:05:41 PM »
That's better!

Uh, the layer thing . . . Michael, I thought I had a handle on the layer zero freeze-thaw vs on-off thing until Civil 3D, but I don't think things work the same in this turkey.  It seems like if I have layer zero anywhere in an object and turn zreo off OR freeze it the whole object along with any other object also having something specified as zero goes away.  I have had to go on so many search and rescue missions after someone picked on one of these layers to freeze or turn off something when they are zoomed in tight in the model tab I am tempted to redefine the silly commands.  Has there been some variable added that has changed this from the old behavior or have I just been running low on Thorazine?  I have never found any difference when I have the independent layer control checked or not but I have such a mess now on some drawing I doubt it is a valid test.  Do you have any suggestion on that setting?