Topic: Lessons learned.

[jpostlewait]

Hey sinc.

Notice you didn't mention the styles part of the beast.
Still running OOTB or have you tied into that yet?

[sinc]

Hey sinc.

Notice you didn't mention the styles part of the beast.
Still running OOTB or have you tied into that yet?

Funny you should notice...   

That's actually the current area of concern - how do we handle styles, layers, etc.  We still are very concious that we need to at least get SOME of our linework on other layers for when we send design surveys off to engineers (none of the engineers we know is currently using C3D -they're all still on LDD).

We're somewhat resigned to not giving them drawings that are as neat as what they used to get.  But as much as possible, we're trying to avoid giving them drawings where EVERYTHING is on Layer 0 and NOTHING is ByLayer...   

BTW - what's OOTB?

[Dinosaur]

. . .BTW - what's OOTB?

Out Of The Box

[jpostlewait]

>>We're somewhat resigned to not giving them drawings that are as neat as what they used to get.  But as much as possible, we're trying to avoid giving them drawings where EVERYTHING is on Layer 0 and NOTHING is ByLayer...    <<

Don't be resigned to that.
I think that actually if you put in the time and effort you drawing quality will improve.
When you do venture into the belly of the styles beast you will discover some amazing functionality. Also some incredible shortcomings.

Your core issue concerns your ability to deliver C3D 2007 created drawing files to your clients without that capability.
And that's ugly.

Inter-separability is a huge issue that has been inadequately addressed.

In my own house, we have the Archies trying to move to the Revit flavor of the month, the MEP guys using building systems and the civil guys trying to roll out C3D.

What happens when we actually get a project using these diverse products?

I don't know but I'll take a WAG that it's not going to be quite as smooth as it looks in the marketing brochures.

And then after we are past that somebody else may stake it.
WTF are we going to be able to send them?

[jpostlewait]

Time to update this.
Believe it or not I actually have learned someting since the last post.
The Beta test business is essentially wide open now.
If you want a look at next years product, sign up.
Another lesson learned.
If you go to AU for a week don't be surprised when you return home that the Naysayers have gained traction in your absence.
The Dinosaurs, no offense Dino, will take advantage of your absence.
This product really is a life changing event and some people are quite comfortable in their lives.
We need to figure a new strategy, not unlike the Iraq study group, in order to move forward.
Fairly critical period in our efforts and might be time for a CEO meeting.
Despite the early failures of the 2007 product the SP3 stuff ROCKS.
Lot of thinking needs to be done by my implementation team and I before we chart the next course.
I'm getting impatient, it really can't be as hard as we are making it.
Well, it ain't easy.

[Dinosaur]

Well John, as long as you still had an office to come back to, they didn't gain enough ground to turn the tide back.  They are fighting a losing battle because this thing is just too good to go away.  It is far from perfect, does a lot of things we don't really need and misses some things we would really like to have but even so is superior to anything else available that doesn't come with a Bentley logo and it may be better than MX or PowerCivil too.  I am not sure if Civil 3D will be the future workhorse for civil engineering design, but I know whatever it is will darn well NOT be Land Desktop 20xx.  My battles with the Naysayer (only one in my case, but quite a handful) are now done, but Civil 3D is still teetering on the brink.  If it falls though, it will be to some package still beyond the horizon.  As sinc has discovered, once you give Civil 3D a chance to show its stuff, one does not look even forward to firing up Land Desktop.  It is pure tedium to use once you figure out how to accomplish a few tasks with Civil 3D.
Now, the last we heard you had a whopping load of comments from your project.  How well is Civil 3D holding up to a significant round of revisions compared to cranking out the initial design?

[jpostlewait]

Sorry Dino for my delay in filling you in on what's happening.
Last week was difficult.
My guys are beginning to feel the sense of urgency that I have trying to convey for a while.
We have to regain forward momentum before we sink.
Pilot project on hold for a number of reason's best not discussed in a public forum.
Running into some real Mid-Management roadblocks that are proving to be more difficult to overcome than I would have hoped.
The theme of this year's AU was "An Agent of Change"
I'm putting in for a purple heart.
Just hope it's not awarded posthumously.

Spell checker's suggested replacement for Mid-Management was Mismanagement.
Now that's a pure piece of gallows humor that I have ever heard.

[Dinosaur]

OUCH ! !   Our problems were always a sense of urgency to just get the blasted project finished and approved along with hemorrhaging budgets because we had to learn and develop things as we went.  This sounds like a whole new class of what I call "megacrash" caused by high management and bean counters rather than the program.  I can only offer that I was officially forbidden to use Civil 3D on three separate occasions for durations measured in weeks and months before things turned around.  I didn't necessarily follow those dictates completely, but they were rough times indeed that eventually passed.

For some reason though, I keep looking at that 2006 AU theme name and reading "AGENT ORANGE" - blast those Vietnam era flashbacks . . .

Don't worry about the delayed response - I have been too busy since that last post to even check in here on a regular basis during the day.  With any luck, the title information came through Friday and our 163 acre project has started its first adventure through the approval process.  I won't know until Monday as rather than work Friday, I got to drive 760 miles over 14 hours with minimal breaks courtesy 3 cans of Red Bull, 2 Starbuck's Frappuccinos and double strength Starbuck Cappuccino energy drink - all on a virtually empty stomach . . . .bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Dinosaur]

Sorry Dino for my delay in filling you in on what's happening.
Last week was difficult.
My guys are beginning to feel the sense of urgency that I have trying to convey for a while.
We have to regain forward momentum before we sink.
Pilot project on hold for a number of reason's best not discussed in a public forum.
Running into some real Mid-Management roadblocks that are proving to be more difficult to overcome than I would have hoped.
The theme of this year's AU was "An Agent of Change"
I'm putting in for a purple heart.
Just hope it's not awarded posthumously.

Spell checker's suggested replacement for Mid-Management was Mismanagement.
Now that's a pure piece of gallows humor that I have ever heard.

If I am reading certain posts on the Discussion Group correctly, John has indeed prevailed through this troubled time and is now up to his eyebrows converting the masses.  I hope I am not jumping the gun in congrtulating him on a job very well done.

[jpostlewait]

Congrats is a big word.
We have managed to "backfill" our political lapses in this process.
2007 sp3 is finally floor ready and the styles beast has been addressed.
The Vault business has been addressed.
I still think it's a bloated, primitive, POS but from the end user prospective they like it.
So if I have to deal with it and they don't we're are moving forward with it.
Our company finally reached the tipping point.
It's going out and it's going to everybody.
Well everybody in the Land Desktop end of the business.
And a couple guys in the Microstation Geopak side also.
It certainly isn't easy from from my side.
Can't imagine what it's like from the Mom and Pop shop side of the business.
But you don't have to create PowerPoint presentations on why we should move forward.
My partner in this adventure wrote an article for Civil3D dot com about being a technical Evangelist.
If he ever turns it in you should see it.
Damn 7:20 on Friday Night and I'm posting on a Geek board.
I'm thinking I need Help.

[Cannon]

Not as much as your consultant that jumped on that same board on Saturday to read it.

See you Monday. 

[dgreble]

Or logging in on Sunday during nap time to lurk!

[jpostlewait]

Even more progress to report.
Because of events, some that I have influence in and some I didn't we now have 6 more users trained.
The Pilot project has come back, 1 new project starts Monday and the other new project next week.
So we are sitting with 6 pretty good users and 6 toddlers and three projects to do.
Seems like the force ratio should work.
Maybe in another month or so we should be able to know a lot more about both how to implement and who is next.
Can't say enough about how important the CEO has been during this process.
My partner in this, the guy on the floor who has to deal daily with the forces of the darkside has been a ROCK.
My consultant, who is rumored to lurk here and occasionally post is......... searching for a word here........ sorry not one word.
It's a little more complicated than that. If you want to hire someone to help you implement this product I have a lot to say in favor of the guy helping us. I have a lot to say about the quality of service and advice that I have been fortunate to receive from him, and his friends.
I said early on I was not going to use this thread to promote any one implementer, those who pay attention know and those that don't can always P.M. me and I will be happy to share.
Besides I blow enough wind in his sails on other locations.
We are now over the hump. Still some moguls to negotiate but it's downhill now.
Thinking maybe March we turn out another dozen users and run them on more projects and then maybe May shoot for another dozen or so.
At this point it's a done deal.
Trying to decide if I should post a top ten Lessons Learned or just make everybody slug it out through this thread.

Wait a minute maybe I have a good idea for a post on another site.
No football tomorrow.
Top ten list. I might try that.

Crap Saturday night and I'm posting on a Geek board.
I really do need a life.

[jpostlewait]

Update this thing.
After next week we will have a couple dozen trained users and a half a dozen projects going.
Among the growing pain decisions yet to make are what the heck do we do with 2008?
Vault is sort of under control, as much as it can be, but what happens when we really get rolling?
Lots of questions remain.
Our pilot project, after some starts and stops, not the fault of the software, is nearly finished.
The guys involved from the start are scary good at this stuff but they will tell you they have a ways to go.
We have a keeper of the dwt and I am confident that he will do a good job of evaluating what needs to go in there and what doesn't.
We are struggling some with how to communicate.
If the guy in the Wastewater group figures something out how does the traffic guy find out also?
I got published with some of my BS here.
http://www.civil3d.com/index.php/2007/03/heres-johnny-a-survival-top-10-list/
Thinking tonight of submitting to the powers that be a Survivors list at next years AU.
At this point things are going downhill, but there is always tomorrow.

[Dinosaur]

Good to see you back with more war stories.  If have been as busy as I with taming this beast there is little wonder at your absence here.
I am still curious how Civil 3D fared with you when the comment letters hit the fan.  It has already saved my keester once when we got caught submitting a project based on design criteria that had been replaced literally 3 days prior with completely different requirements with such things as sheet size and scales in addition to having both ends of the project in City A that the sewer actually will serve and the bulk of it in City B who decided its entire mission was to block it at all cost.  Both cities went wild with their turnaround deadlines.  LDT would have failed us miserably with the scope of changes but Civil 3D allowed me to at least maintain some dignity and now the newly completed elementary school can actually have flush toilets.