Topic: Time for new system... need advise

[Dr. After]

I am looking into a new computer for all my "work" work here at work.  In other words, this will be the dedicated plotting machine that will also need to have great CAD abilities for the next couple releases.  While we don't do any rendering or 3DStudio, we are finding that the much used TIF files by reprographic companies are very large and take up massive amounts of memory just to create thumbnails of a directory or to even print more then one at a time through windows.  We had gotten these great 2.4Ghz Dells with the 533 FSB, but now you are going to spend $500 to upgrade the RAM on these and you are lucky to even find RAM that isn't just plain old 100Mhz rambus.  None the less, upgrading my two units will cost about $1000 so I figure it's time to approach getting a new machine.  I can spend about $2500 for a system and only require a 20-24" FP monitor.

So my real questions here are:

What is a good processing speed?  Dual Core?  Dueal Processor? etc...

What is the bets type of RAM?  Preferably one that won't go extinct like the ones to utalize my 533 FSB.

What is a sufficiant graphics card for that size moniter and Vanilla CAD?

I will propbably be getting it form Dell as we have had great relations with Dell so far and up until recently they were the most upgradable out of the top resealers of computers, but if there is a better option out there, I am all eyes.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Chuck Gabriel]

only require a 20-24" FP monitor.

Sarcasm?  If not, there went half your budget.

[RbtDanforth]

These guys are always winning the Cadalyst shootouts, withs some amazing machines. My last full upgrade was one of these (450mhz athalon within the week that athalon came out, 26gig hdd when 20 was as big as I could find elsewhere).

I was doing Max a lot at the time and had used it on several very hot computers (for the time). The machine they built crashed less than any of the others by a factor of 7 or10. I am considering making them my next upgrade. It is between them and a local genius and friend.

[Kerry]

Thats a pretty mean looking system Bob ... but I can't get the cost estimate to be under 20 grand

[RbtDanforth]

Im looking at one for just under 2g, but depending on how greedy you are....

[Binky]

This might be a bit disjointed but it does all go together but not so much in any order.  I buy parts rather then systems but it may help and I enjoy blabbing about it. as you will see...

Once there was a noticable difference in the performance between the AMD and Intel chips.  Now though both are running fast enough cheap enough that to base a decision on brand is really more brand loyalty.  Simply buy the fastest that your budget will allow.  There is a price bubble where an extra 20 dollars will get you the next chip up but the one up from that is an extra 150 dollars.  for myself and my budget I spend the 20.  depending on where you shop and such it is generally around the 3.2 gig mark, which is really alot of raw speed.

What about Xeon's or Extreme editions or dual cores? depends on what you want the machine to do.  Xeon/Opteron are meant for servers, these have better memory management built in and other tweaks that are geared to file servers.  The Extreme/FX chips are power number crunchers, they would make darn good work stations but have a premium price and unless your rendering and doing heavy analysis or have extra cash on hand,probably not worth the price.  Last the dual cores.  these are meant for multi tasking multiple applications, do not expect them to run single application any better then the single core chips (not yet anyway)  unless you are running an operating system built from the core up to utilize multiple processors (unix and the like).  soon applications will be written to take advanage of both cores but Autocad is not one of them yet.  For the budget you mention I would stay with the P4 or Athalon 64 chips as fast as I can afford.

Video is a weakness of mine, I have to have the best I can get my hands on (I enjoy the games, Half life, Doom, quake etc...). Games and rendering are the only reason to go top of the line though.  Both Nvidia and ATI have released not one but two major video chip models in the last year.  I have a BFG 6800 OC deluxe on my machine at home at there is nothing it can't do, it is before the two releases that I mentioned with those about triple the performance that I am currently running.  The point to this is that you can get more video then you need at a decent price ($200 to $275 compared to $500 and up).  Getting a card without a DVI out is getting hard but I would make sure that it has two (for a second monitor, vga to a flat panel just doesn't quite make it). For cad i perfer ATI based cards, There is something with Nvidia cards and mtext that make the text hard to read when you edit it. For a pure gaming machine BFG tech makes the finest(These are Nvidia based).  For ATI a 700X or 800X and Nvidia a GeForce 6800 would do the trick

Memory is fickle, buy it now and buy enough.  as your experience has shown it may not be easy or cheap to add later.  The manufacturing technologly changes fast and it is only going to get worse for a spell. Its another discussion altogether as to why.

I would not worry about dual core for these machines but probably the ones after these, if you can afford the Exteme or FX chips it will be longer before you feel the need to upgrade but not a deal breaker for what you are after and the extra money might be better spent on more memory (2 gig mimium).  The Xeon/Opteron just is not the right choice for anything but servers.

This is my opinion and I know folks have different ones.  That monitor size you stated is a killer though, Viewsonic make a 20" around $500,any larger and and you are going to have to sacrifce some computer.  There are large flat panels a decent price but be sure that is has dvi inputs or you will be disappointed in the image quality.

Hope it helps... Sorry I got long winded.

[Chuck Gabriel]

Don't apologize.  That was great.  Long-winded is good when you actually have something to say.

[RbtDanforth]

Just two notes

#1 I have run dual core in autocad, and watched the memory manager, when you do something calculation intensive like bhatch, BOTH cores are working, I rarely saw the second core over 50% but it is definitely contributing big where it counts. I have a few things (lisp or 3d) that can choke a computer accidentally, The last dualie I had just took visible time, where usually I need ctr-alt-del.

#2 I have considered flat screens, but I run at 1600x1400 pixels on a 19" and would run 3200x? if the CRT would do it (had one once that did) as yet I have not seen a flat screen that will do over 1280x1020, (some wide screens are 1600x900 but I would not count that), and even then the resolution is not as bright. Until either flats can match CRTs, or their lack of sex appeal drives them out of the market, I will be using them. If you perfer using your cad at 800x600 then Flat screen is a consideration.

one vote for new tech and one for old. Bonus point, XI focuses on the cad industry, and the calculation intensive apps, having one convinced me there is a difference.

[ElpanovEvgeniy]

>Dragon

I work on Samsung 204Ts and is very happy!
1600x1200 pixels on a 20.1"

[RbtDanforth]

Well there you go! If ever you find they don't make something, ten minutes later they will . When I last looked I could not find such things, If your info is a week old or more, I guess you'd better Google before speaking.

Perhaps flat screens need to be on my lookup after all.

[ElpanovEvgeniy]

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=50&hs=n4a&hl=ru&client=opera&rls=en&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA+%D0%B2+Google&as_epq=Samsung+204Ts&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=

[Kerry]

If your info is a week old or more, I guess you'd better Google before speaking

hehehehe

.. ditto for 6 months old Bob ..

[Chuck Gabriel]

One more note regarding dual-core.  You don't necessarily have to be running multi-threaded apps to take advantage of multiple cores.  Running multiple applications at once also puts multi-processing systems through their paces.

[ElpanovEvgeniy]

>Dragon
Look a picture and pay attention to the size (a portrait 1200x1600)

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=8991.msg115580#msg115580

[Birdy]

Good info folks.  (see Binky, you've got LOTS to contribute. )

FWIW, we just got 2 Xi machines at work, just under $2,000 which are virtually identical to the one I built at home for ~$1,400. >See this thread<(I ditched the sound card, using the onboard audio, and cheapened up on a few other items)
Monitors not included on any of these.

I'm very happy with Xi.  They're rock solid....so far.  Defineately "cheeper" to build your own, but there's no way I'd do that for a work machine.  I don't think I'd wanna deal with the "looks" if it locked up even once.

And FWIW, the home build is hummin along nicely.  Two.5 months isn't much to go on though.  Ask me about it in two years.

[Dr. After]

I enjoy blabbing about it. as you will see.................................Sorry I got long winded.

Don't apologize one bit.  These are the types of responses every looks for when posting this vague of a scenario.  Thank you for all the personalized (for CAD) info.

Kickin ass post if I do say so myself...

[Dr. After]

Sarcasm?  If not, there went half your budget.

Nope and Nope....  Check this out:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001226

[Chuck Gabriel]

Sarcasm?  If not, there went half your budget.

Nope and Nope....  Check this out:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001226

Wow.  I had no idea prices had come down that much.  That's awesome.

[Dr. After]

Wow.  I had no idea prices had come down that much.  That's awesome.

I hadn't realized that either.  Very glad, because now I have some extra to throw at the CPU.

It looks like it is a tie between the HP xw4300 which comes with a free (useless to me) monitor that we could sell, or the Xi.  Dell just couldn't pull off the faster memory, but maybe I am just being picky.  HP offers the 667Mhz RAM and Dell only offers the 400Mhz.  I am getting 2 sticks of 1024 for each and both have a 800 FSB.

So....  maybe I'm getting an Xi, but it definitely looks like I'm not getting a Dell.  First time not going with them in over 5 years!!

[Dr. After]

Xi® MTower™ 64 SLI Workstation (Base Configuration)

  Upgrades And Options: 

AMD® Athlon™ 64 X2 4600+ 64Bit Dual Core (DC3800) 2x512KB Cache HyperTransport™
2048MB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 2x1024 Dual Rank Interleave
nVidia® Quadro FX 550 128MB DDR3 PCIe 2x DVI Single Link
160GB 7200RPM SATAII 300MB/s 8MB Cache 9ms avg. seek
HD Ctrl. According To Motherboard and HD Type Selected
CD-ROM 52x Speed ATAPI
1.44MB 3 1/2" Floppy Drive
On Board Sound AC 97 Codec or accordingly to motherboard selected
On board 1GB Ethernet (10/100/1000) on board LAN
Logitech® Deluxe Black Windows Keyboard
Logitech® 2+ Wheel PS/2 Mouse Black Optical w/Mouse pad
Genuine Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional CD-ROM w/manuals/act.reg.** SP2
Asus® M2NPV-VM Nvidia® NForce® 430 1xPCIe 2xPCI Non ECC DDR2 800 GeForce 6150 1GbEthernet+4xSATA3Gb RAID
460W Enermax Ball Bearing Thermo Controller or conforming with selected configuration
Standard Xi Warranty One Year on System, Mfg. on Monitor
Xi® MTower Black/Silver/Glass 2xFr.USB 460W UL PS 4x 5 1/4" 6x 3 1/2" 2x BB Fan.
 
Bought Seperately:
Samsung 204B

Total Cost:  $2,031.68

So I was able to get a dual core processor with 2GB of 800 Mhz RAM and a 20.1" 5ms flat panel monitor for almost $500 under budget.  And I even get the geeky glass case with lighted fans, so it glows!!!   

[Andrea]

These guys are always winning the Cadalyst shootouts, withs some amazing machines. My last full upgrade was one of these (450mhz athalon within the week that athalon came out, 26gig hdd when 20 was as big as I could find elsewhere).

I was doing Max a lot at the time and had used it on several very hot computers (for the time). The machine they built crashed less than any of the others by a factor of 7 or10. I am considering making them my next upgrade. It is between them and a local genius and friend.

athalon or athlon ?...

 :kewl:

[Dr. After]

athalon or athlon ?...

Deepens own haw suthern you is...

[RbtDanforth]

"Deepens own haw suthern you is..."
We is so sothern down here the Deep South is north

[PHX cadie]

Ya'lls gatta talk Inglish! If-in eyes member right Andrea isin France!
Gatta go, hav'n gater fer supper