Topic: Civil 3D - Some Things It Is UNWISE To Do

[Dinosaur]

I know there are not many Civil 3D users out there yet, but I hope this thread will eventually turn into a resource of seemingly harmless actions that are much better off left undone when new users first start on their journey learning to use this program.

It is late and my day started 18 hours ago and so for this along with reasons closely related to my starting this thread I will post only one thing tonight.  It may seem rather obvious, but that did not prevent a colleague from doing it at some point over the last 4 months that was just discovered today - GRRR

You have mastered the art of corridor creation and have your roadway designed perfectly.  You have exported a surface from your masterpiece and are applying building pads, swales and walls to this new surface, but the extra linework in that beautiful corridor is getting in your way.  You turn off its layer a go about creating your grading plan surface.  At some point you begin to worry about file size and start looking for something to remove and look there! That old existing surface that was superceded after we got more data.  That's outa here - along with the profile view created with it that our corridor was based upon and since the corridor is turned of no one notices at it blinks into oblivion.  In fact, no one cares until it is realized that that street is just too high and you just can't ignore the contours being THAT far off.  It is NOT fun (or easy) to recreate these things and all of your review comments will be dependent upon getting a new grading surface first.

The first entry on this list is do not erase your corridor.  It is one thing that can NOT be saved externally and must reside in your model.  It is actually an important thing to remember about ANY Civil 3D object - DO NOT ERASE THEM - If one must be deleted click on it in toolspace and delete from there.  If you see a little orange flag in front of it, the object is being used or referenced elsewhere in the drawing and the delete function will not be available.

[Dinosaur]

Well, a few people looked at that one.  Did anybody try it out to see if I was feeding you a line?  If you do give it a try, don't rely on "oops" or "undo" to cover your keester - Civil 3D hates those commands when they involve restoring a Civil 3D object, you might get lucky . . . but . . .

Here is a nice one - turn the corridor auto update OFF and keep the sampling intervals  l o n g  whilst messing with the corridor parameters unless you feel the need for extended breaks every time you change one.  It is also CRITICAL to set it to OFF before you do anything to an assembly or sub assembly parameter.  There is no faster way to the dreaded "power exit" than to plug in a number to a sub assembly that creates a condition that Civil 3D can not calculate.  There is no warning if you are committing this offense.  The programmers rely on aversion therapy to enforce compliance - you break the unmarked rules; your computer crashes without warning.  Some relief can be had by remembering to do a qsave before entering these waters but remembering this can be as difficult for some of us as remembering the dangerous tweaks . . . BEFORE we push the OK button.

OK, that is two and maybe even three or four . . . I know somebody else has crashed on the same rock enough to know how to avoid it . . . how about sharing it?

[Jeff_M]

Thanks for sharing these Dino. I just wish I could convince the powers above that it really might be in our best interests to move on from LDD3......in the mean time I will continue to explore it's use in my free time and, hopefully, learn from other's experience.

[Dinosaur]

The best thing you can do for yourself Jeff (short of some GOOD training) is to get familiar with the Toolspace interface.  That is the best and safest way to interact with the program and avoid some unexpected consequences of seemingly very benign commands.

Would you like to really mess up your points database?  Instead of saving your points to a project or remembering to protect or lock them, just freeze their layer.  Now select some linework either by window or crossing (even selection by pick does this but it is easier to catch) and copy it in a few scattered places and watch the fun.  If you are paying attention you will see that any points within your selected area are included in your selection set and are now brand new points.

[dubb]

The best thing you can do for yourself Jeff (short of some GOOD training) is to get familiar with the Toolspace interface.  That is the best and safest way to interact with the program and avoid some unexpected consequences of seemingly very benign commands.

Would you like to really mess up your points database?  Instead of saving your points to a project or remembering to protect or lock them, just freeze their layer.  Now select some linework either by window or crossing (even selection by pick does this but it is easier to catch) and copy it in a few scattered places and watch the fun.  If you are paying attention you will see that any points within your selected area are included in your selection set and are now brand new points.

i really enjoy this thread....

[Jeff_M]

Would you like to really mess up your points database?  Instead of saving your points to a project or remembering to protect or lock them, just freeze their layer.  Now select some linework either by window or crossing (even selection by pick does this but it is easier to catch) and copy it in a few scattered places and watch the fun.  If you are paying attention you will see that any points within your selected area are included in your selection set and are now brand new points.

'da hell? After some 'playing' around with this all I can say is "Who dropped the ball on this one? That is nothing short of disastrous....." I can't believe that this is by design.

[Dinosaur]

Fun stuff, eh Jeff?  It is like the programmers assumed that just because they provided means to prevent this from happening the user would know about the potential problem, how to prevent it and remember to do so before issuing what in other programs is a very innocent series of commands.  Civil 3D can make very savvy CAD operators look extremely incompetent if they just start using it without any training.

Dubb, good to hear you are enjoying this as much as I am.  Your post about the missing points got me thinking about doing this thread and when our corridor model was discovered missing last Friday, I thought it might be useful for some of the quicksand to have warnings signs posted.  The frightening part is that points and corridors are some of the things that work really well in Civil 3D.

Here is one that is a bit different.  It is not as devastating as the points thing, but very frustrating the first time through unless proper styles have been set up for you.

You have created an existing ground surface and you want the topo to display as dashed lines for the index contours and hidden lines for the intermediate contours with each having its own color . . . As Captain Pikard would say . . . "Make it so" . . .

[dubb]

now im the bad guy around the office here. so i made it clear that i will neve use 2006 map 3d unless its for my environmental team. i cant use it in the infrastructure, too many complaints.

[Dinosaur]

OUCH ! !
That is what  call the "mega-crash" with Civil 3D - when its use is banned by management . . . don't worry, it happens all the time (especially around billing time).  It has happened to me twice.

[mjfarrell]

I have a BIGGER list of things users should be carefull of doing.
Also to Jeff and Dubb, I can solve both of your challenges if
I could get out there and teach everyone how it works, when
to use it and why.

[Dinosaur]

Sherpa, would you care to share a few of those hidden traps?

[Dinosaur]

And speaking of the "MEGA-CRASH" guess what happened at my office today . . . I'm not too discouraged though, this one seemed more like a stress induced panic rather than a full blown ban.  It will probably amount to one or two missed project opportunities and not much more.  At least this time the drawing data was transferred correctly via xml instead of just firing up the model in LDT like happened the first two times . . . people CAN learn although they can be rather slow about it sometimes.  Time will tell how many problems were created in the transfer.  No matter what though, it could be worse . . . I get to stay with remaining projects and don't have to deal with the mess being created OR . . .    :kewl:

And just so I don't hijack my own thread . . . my unwise act ?  Time management, or lack thereof actually, caused by slipping into learning mode instead of just getting the stupid comments out of the way.  You know there must be some way to get the program to change something just exactly this way, but THAT sure didn't work . . . maybe if . . . The next thing you know it's lunch time, so feeling guilty you will just keep working and skip lunch . . . THERE! that is pretty close, just . . . huh? where's everyone going . . .  . . . you've just killed a day to get "pretty close" to clearing that comment.  You HAVE learned how to do that the next time you see it and preserved the integrity of your model and not exploded any objects thus keeping this Civil 3D project viable, but possibly at the expense of a new project where you can apply your freshly learned lesson.

Sometimes a combination of client pressures and a barrage of review comments demanding scores of irrational comments that just don't come naturally when using Civil 3D.  The evil comments are the ones that look like they can be achieved with just the right tweak and well. see above.  At some point at least early on, ending the experiment, enduring the jabs at STILL not being able to "finish out a job a job with that turkey" and moving on with a fresh start makes more sense.

[Dinosaur]

I have been trying very hard to resist posting a wisecrack in here about it being decidedly unwise to install 2007, but I am weak and pathetic so it has now been posted.  The odd part is that I don't really believe that it is such a bad idea.  I wouldn't deploy it for others to use right now, but I sure would install it and test drive it.
I am seeing all kinds of reports complaining about stability issues and new features that don't function as expected and it strikes me how similar the complaints and rhetoric were last May when 2006 was brand new.  Those problems have mostly dissap peared into service packs, hotfixes and most importantly, time spent getting used to the program and knowing WHAT NOT TO DO.  I am sure that this history will repeat itself and by September or October I will be ready to install 2007 just as I did 2006 last autumn.
Whenever you feel it is time to try it out, just remember that as of this writing, with the format change this year there is NO piratical way to save a 2007 Civil 3D file into ANY other AutoCAD format and continue using the drawing for active design purposes with that version.  DO NOT USE IT FOR PRODUCTION unless you are prepared to commit to it completely.  There is no turning back; I am not even sure if an XML transfer will help because 2007 uses a new version of that as well.  It also seems to be necessary to rebuild your drawing templates from scratch with a fresh 2007 version template and add your old customizations to that rather than just copying your old template.  There are a lot more warnings circulating various Blog sites right now.  I have links to several of these site on MY OWN BLOG if you are not thouroughly frightened off by now and want to check further.

[mjfarrell]

Dino,


Isn't amazing how a few years back; the folks at www.augi.com were all distressed
over my discourse on the the forced path to upgrade, poor product testing, and the
inevitable change to the DWG format?  They eventally invoked a ban, then a random
employee of Solid Vapor locked me out, etc, etc. 

Remember in class when I suggested that the minimum system specifications be much higher?
Even now autodesk's recommendation is about half of what it should be.

As 2007 steamrolls the end-user, and slams IT department budgets with these higher demands,
this lower cost subscription program is starting to be quite expensive indeed.  Factor in the
horror stories of poorly delivered training that I hear about, I'm starting to feel a little like
Nostradamus. 

[Dinosaur]

I remember all of those things very well, especially in the class where you gave us a grading exercise and sat back while everyone's computer blinked out in succession - yours included.  It is amazing how much more stable Civil 3D is when running on a 64 bit processor and 2gb memory instead of a 1.2 laptop with 256mb.
You were quite correct when you suggested to me that the drawing format change with 2007 would cause a host of compatibility issues.  You had me prepared for some, but nothing like what has developed thus far.  In effect, Autodesk has leveled the playing field for everyone with this move.  Civil 3D 2007 is such an elite product that it can not mesh with ANY older product, Autodesk or otherwise.  Now would seem an ideal time to stand pat with the old release and see if an alternate solution can take advantage of the opportunity.  If the promised enhancements all actually work with 2007 and the product were somewhat stable it would be worth upgrading, but the workarounds made necessary where 2006 fell short are still in place and there is no real pressing need to upgrade, especially in light of the problems that are erupting and the extra hardware costs that would probably be incurred.
If you already have Civil 3d, you are almost certainly on subscription and you will have Civil 3D available.  I would install it and learn everything I can about it, but only as an individual exercise at this time.  If something new comes along or Bentley comes knocking with a full featured demo, my door is open wide.

[sinc]

If you already have Civil 3d, you are almost certainly on subscription and you will have Civil 3D available.  I would install it and learn everything I can about it, but only as an individual exercise at this time.  If something new comes along or Bentley comes knocking with a full featured demo, my door is open wide.

I know that if someone has a viable solution, they have the ear of MY company...

The big thing with us is we just can't take the unreliability.  Autodesk seems to have no concept AT ALL of reliable software.

---

Instructions for Autodesk QC:

• Recieve a bug report from a customer.
• Classify the bug, however you feel like it.  Feel free to create a new classification, just for this bug.  If you get this wrong, that's OK - it will just make it seem like there's a lot more minor bugs, and a lot fewer major bugs.
• Check and see if the bug classification matches a previous one.  If it does, add this bug report to the others in the same classification.
• If the number of reports in the classification hits 100 different customers who complain, look at the bug, and determine if it's a serious bug or not.  If it causes the computer to crash, then it is a serious bug.  Report serious bugs to the programmers, so it can be looked at further, and fixed if the programmers determine it is an easy fix.  If the problem has a work-around, then that work-around will be posted in the Knowledge Base, and the bug will be left in the product.  Otherwise, it will be slated to be fixed someday, in some future version.
• Once a bug classification has 1000 reports, look at it again.  If it is a semi-serious bug (i.e., only Autocad crashes), then report it to the programmers, who will deal with it as above.
• If the number of reports in a classification hits 10,000 reports, pass it on to the programmers, who will try to deal with it as above.  But really, who has time to deal with these unimportant bugs?

[Dent Cermak]

So what you are saying about the new Civil3D is that the wisest thing to do with it is not install it? I agree.
Now here's an oddity. I have the Civil3D Companion with my LDD package. So far it aooears to work fine. BUT then, I don't use a LOT of that package.

[Dinosaur]

So what you are saying about the new Civil3D is that the wisest thing to do with it is not install it?

For my purposes, it is probably an unnecessary release.  There are some new features I would like to try, but not enough to commit the entire office to using 2007 just to keep our drawings compatible.  Everybody higher than me on the company pecking order uses AutoCAD like it was release 9 and stop just short of suggesting that the whole office might be better off if that is exactly what everyone was using.   We are, and and this is a real quote from our design engineer yesterday "throwing stuff up on a wall to see what the city will let us get away with".   In such an environment, most of the functions of even Land Desktop are unused.  The only reason Civil 3D was tried was a problem with design changes not being fully updated throughout the drawing set - apparently the risk of errors is less threatening than losing the ability to fudge the drawings to make them look good and deal work out any problems in the field.

Now here's an oddity. I have the Civil3D Companion with my LDD package. So far it appears to work fine. BUT then, I don't use a LOT of that package.

It sounds like the package you have is the Land Desktop thrown in as a courtesy with the Civil 3D.  With this release Civil 3D was intended as the replacement for the Civil Design and Survey packages.  I think Survey may be dead now and the old Civil Design can still be had for the die-hards, but under its own license and subscription for a sizeable bag of nickles.  As far as its working correctly, good for you.  Perhaps you held your mouth in exactly the right way and used all the curse words in proper order.  Be cautious though because sinc's problems are being reported by numerous others.

[Dent Cermak]

No. My LDD 2007 is made up of LDD2007, the Survey Package(2007) and the Civil3D Companion(2007). All are 2007 versions. I guess they decided to hold off for another year. (maybe they knew Civil3D was broken, but they had "deadlines".) 

[mjfarrell]

sinc,


I have tried and tried and can not duplicate your error. I can change the entire groups style, and or individuals within the group; all without error.  Are your machines all better than the advertised minimums?

[sinc]

sinc,


I have tried and tried and can not duplicate your error. I can change the entire groups style, and or individuals within the group; all without error.  Are your machines all better than the advertised minimums?

The bug was fixed in Civil 3D SP1.

It's this item, from the Sevice Pack README:

An issue with using the Point Editor to change point styles, point label styles, or point layers has been resolved. The Point Editor now responds appropriately when you change these items.

[mjfarrell]

Interesting, as I never installed any service pack, yet???