Author Topic: BIM libraries  (Read 663 times)

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jonesy

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 08:54:39 am »
Thanks for your input hudster and 42.

The company I work for is doing the final design/installation and as built models... will that make any difference in using manufacturers families?

Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

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jonesy

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 10:07:54 am »
Just to add to this, I have double checked this current project and the BEP calls for the MEP to be modelled to the following

5 - Construction LOD To provide full information to support construction / installation of the appropriate systems / products.
LOI The prescribed manufacturer products that that meet the generic product specification.

Am I right in assuming that I need to use the manufacturers families if they are available?
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 10:32:20 am »
Just to add to this, I have double checked this current project and the BEP calls for the MEP to be modelled to the following

5 - Construction LOD To provide full information to support construction / installation of the appropriate systems / products.
LOI The prescribed manufacturer products that that meet the generic product specification.

Am I right in assuming that I need to use the manufacturers families if they are available?
No.
“Common sense is not so common.” ~Voltaire

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hudster

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 10:49:08 am »
What LOD is construction?

Quote
The LOD framework defines the following model element content requirements:
LOD 100: The Model Element may be graphically represented in the Model with a symbol or other generic representation, but does not satisfy the requirements for LOD 200. Information related to the Model Element (i.e., cost per square foot, tonnage of HVAC, etc.) can be derived from other Model Elements.
LOD 200: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a generic system, object, or assembly with approximate quantities, size, shape, location, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 300: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a specific system, object, or assembly in terms of quantity, size, shape, location, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 400: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a specific system, object or assembly in terms of size, shape, location, quantity, and orientation with detailing, fabrication, assembly, and installation information. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 500 The Model Element is a field verified representation in terms of size, shape, location, quantity, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Elements.

We work to LOD 300, and for most that is sufficient. I haven't ever seen a contractors model which contains the manufacturers information, most are happy to utilise our generic models for their information, and only work to fill in the relevant Cobie parameters we provide as per the BEP.

Even working to LOD 500 I would be reluctant to utilise manufacturers families, better to model it yourself to suit your needs.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 10:53:08 am by hudster »
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jonesy

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 11:01:38 am »
Just to add to this, I have double checked this current project and the BEP calls for the MEP to be modelled to the following

5 - Construction LOD To provide full information to support construction / installation of the appropriate systems / products.
LOI The prescribed manufacturer products that that meet the generic product specification.

Am I right in assuming that I need to use the manufacturers families if they are available?
No.
OK, thanks for the clafification
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

jonesy

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 11:07:43 am »
What LOD is construction?

Quote
The LOD framework defines the following model element content requirements:
LOD 100: The Model Element may be graphically represented in the Model with a symbol or other generic representation, but does not satisfy the requirements for LOD 200. Information related to the Model Element (i.e., cost per square foot, tonnage of HVAC, etc.) can be derived from other Model Elements.
LOD 200: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a generic system, object, or assembly with approximate quantities, size, shape, location, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 300: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a specific system, object, or assembly in terms of quantity, size, shape, location, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 400: The Model Element is graphically represented within the Model as a specific system, object or assembly in terms of size, shape, location, quantity, and orientation with detailing, fabrication, assembly, and installation information. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Element.
LOD 500 The Model Element is a field verified representation in terms of size, shape, location, quantity, and orientation. Non-graphic information may also be attached to the Model Elements.

We work to LOD 300, and for most that is sufficient. I haven't ever seen a contractors model which contains the manufacturers information, most are happy to utilise our generic models for their information, and only work to fill in the relevant Cobie parameters we provide as per the BEP.

Even working to LOD 500 I would be reluctant to utilise manufacturers families, better to model it yourself to suit your needs.
This project is to the NBS toolkit LOD 5 and LOI 5.  I will find out more when I meet the model manager/coordinator for the main contractor tomorrow.
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

hudster

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2016, 11:49:02 am »
If your having to use manufacturers families to suit the BEP, i must say, I don't envy you. From most of the families I've seen you'll spend as much time fixing them as you will actually working on your own model.
We utilise our own families and its still a nightmare scheduling all the information.
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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2016, 12:40:04 pm »
Just to add to this, I have double checked this current project and the BEP calls for the MEP to be modelled to the following

5 - Construction LOD To provide full information to support construction / installation of the appropriate systems / products.
LOI The prescribed manufacturer products that that meet the generic product specification.

Am I right in assuming that I need to use the manufacturers families if they are available?
No.
OK, thanks for the clafification

Having a visual "accurate" only family does not meet LOD specifications. You--and Archictect's--have to understand is that if you cannot schedule those parameters (the ones that the specifications require) then "it" is just more garbage. Revit models are not BIM (they can be but they are not the only models, many BIM models are IFC, etc). You need to have families that can be scheduled or "visually altered" by all parties (if they "link in"/"open" your IFC/RVT); you need to take into consideration about how your model will be used (RVT/IFC/Database)  and how easily the other person can obtain the information they are after (someone is not just flying around looking at pretty pictures/renderings. ...I see so much garbage from Architects saying "the information you need is in the family" but in reality, I cannot schedule it or view that information in a useful way. A lot of information is/can be missed because no one knew you had to select that "specialty equipment"--which is supposed to be "mechanical equipment" or "plumbing fixture"--and find some obscure series of checkboxes (the person who created that family/model didn't provide a useful classification and/or useful means of obtaining the information needed).

hudster, LOD 350 is CAD/BIM (coordination). LOD 400 is construction. LOD 500 is as-builts. The manufacture information should be added in the 350 stage/phase and finalized in 400 and 500.
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lamarn

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 02:00:16 am »
INFORMATION and DATA have very different meanings John, what I think you  actually are saying you see a lot of raw data, referred to as 'garbage'. From these data models you are not able to filter right (find information..) If I may say so I read a lot of  (bim being) INFORMATION but seem to forget the difference between data and information. My cent for this discussion..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 02:23:02 am by lamarn »
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hudster

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2016, 04:00:04 am »
That is precisely the problem I have with manufacturers families, 99.999999% of the information is unschedulable, and of practically no value. So if you are using them, you have to add your own parameters and populate them, the main problem with that is, when you pass it to the FM guys, those parameters don't meet their needs and then they have to add their own paramaters and populate those.
This will continue to be a never ending loop of modification until someone somewhere issues a standard set of parameters for all to use. There is of course Cobie, but have a close look and you'll find multiple parameters for the same thing, last I checked there was 3? different parameters for length and no doubt whatever one you chose, it would be the wrong one.
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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2016, 08:12:12 am »
lamarn, yes I suppose they do. Nonetheless, I'm officially changing the BIM acronym to BiM. Please change all your documents.

This is what you get when Architects try to tackle big things. ...Revit: *bleh*. BIM: *sigh*. LOD: Psshht!

hudster, there is. And it's even ISO certified! It's called IFC. http://iaiweb.lbl.gov/Resources/IFC_Releases/R2x3_final/
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rvhwlc

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2016, 09:11:30 am »
From most of the families I've seen you'll spend as much time fixing them as you will actually working on your own model.
if you spend time fixing manufacturer families.. and the bep says you must use them... this would defeat the purprose correct? i agree no manuf families.. . make your own.. many manuf. families are a decade old and autocad solids..

42

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Rob...

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Re: BIM libraries
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2016, 04:55:01 pm »
All this really depends on what kinds of families. I've found some HVAC equipment families to be surprisingly similar to what I would build. It's not like it was 8 years ago when I first started with most of them containing imported .dwg stuff. Those were causing all kinds of problems back then. A real mess. Not so much these days.
Senior Mechanical Designer/Model Manager
Building Systems