Topic: Management: Bringing Managers and Drafter up to level of exceptable levels

[MP]

The best CAD people don't wait for training. They tuck in and get after it. I've got no use for lazy people who whine that their company won't train them.

Dave

I know many world class CADD folks, some managers, some programmers, some operators and every single one of them is a go getter, blaze their own trail, make it happen type.

[JNieman]

Pointdump may be blunt and direct, but he ain't wrong.  Not by a long shot.

I never had a single formal Autocad training class and everything I got I learned from the help file, online resources, and a great deal of help from this place in the archive of info and helpful responses to my desperate frustrations with <infomercial cry> "There HAS to BE A BETTER WAY!" </infomercial cry>

I'm not saying training is useless, but if someone can't learn on their own - having it told to them won't make much difference.  I see training as a way to get someone /capable of learning/ up to a certain platform level so they can jump from a better vantage point... on their own.  It's a time-issue, imo.  One week of training might replace a month or two of occasional help-file searches and peer-support pleas.


ETA:  That said, I'm up against NX and CATIA right now, for which I'm suggesting training for NX, and demanding training for CATIA (we all agree no one can be expected to function without it in CATIA) because we I'm already quite overwhelmed.  I'm not a entry level person, either, who gets paid sub-billable wage in order to account for "learning curve".

[mjfarrell]

ETA:  That said, I'm up against NX and CATIA right now, for which I'm suggesting training for NX, and demanding training for CATIA (we all agree no one can be expected to function without it in CATIA) because we I'm already quite overwhelmed.  I'm not a entry level person, either, who gets paid sub-billable wage in order to account for "learning curve".

This validates what I said about not having the luxury of time to waste valuable resources with reading help files or doing base level tutorials.

And if the training you are accustomed to is too expensive, that would be why I've been offering an alternative to 'expensive'
training for all these years.

[JNieman]

Sorry, forgot this thread was about you.  I was speaking in generalities of training and factors involved, and then about my position specifically!  I'll step away, now.

[Tortiz]

You can hide the cost of training but it there. You can say I learned it on my own but, I bet a lot of it was on the job. someone paid for it. You, with time and a computer / internet connection or at work on company time.

[Greg B]

You can hide the cost of training but it there. You can say I learned it on my own but, I bet a lot of it was on the job. someone paid for it. You, with time and a computer / internet connection or at work on company time.

Now wait a moment.  Everyone is always learning something new while working on a job.  Unless you go to work and sit in your chair and click the exact same button day after day, you are learning something new.  What you are being paid for is to do your job.  Not training.

[Bethrine]

I'll chime in here and add my current experience:

I was hired at "sub-level" wages and allowed to learn what I didn't know. Partly because of that, I have gone out of my way to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can.

The other part is just because I want to be excellent at my job and appreciated. I want to be the person in the office everyone is glad to see every morning. Only part of that is personality, most of it is if you make other people's jobs easier for them and that means pulling my own weight at the very least.

Being self taught, there is no reason I cannot be successful that way however, I would point out that after a certain point, the help file is no longer helpful and outside assistance of some sort is necessary. The people here are an excellent resource and, in my opinion, a rare one! I did learn more from the help file than out of the book from my local community college (I didn't go to classes, just read the book). I also got more out of an Autodesk training manual than I did from the help file. Because of those two experiences, I would love to go to an Autodesk gathering of some sort and see what I could glean from that but as far as getting my Associates locally, I am thinking that if the teacher isn't any better than the material, it may not be worth the paper it's printed on.

IMO: It depends on the training as well as the employee and the right training along with the right employee will be worth every penny. The right training with the wrong employee is pointless.

[Tortiz]

From a management point of view, you want to start with the right person. From a personal point of view I like being vary good at what I do. I go out of my way to learn as much as I can to do my job well. All I'm saying about training is to formalize it, Put a cost to it and put in to the overhead cost. I'm not only taking about getting outside training but, if you need to go to a online training video from say Autodesk University that cost go to overhead not the job.

[Pointdump]

Bethrine,

"...after a certain point, the help file is no longer helpful and outside assistance of some sort is necessary."

I disagree. How do you think the trainers learned it all? Trusting training to spoon-feed you exactly what you might need to know is not a good way to learn.

Dave

[Pointdump]

Tortiz,

"You can hide the cost of training but it there. You can say I learned it on my own but, I bet a lot of it was on the job. someone paid for it. You, with time and a computer / internet connection or at work on company time."

Can I share something with you? I've been out of work for almost 2 years. (I'm a carpenter.) Office survey is the direction I want to go. Should I wait until an employer is willing to train me, or should I dig into the Help Section, so that the next job that comes up, I can say, "Hell yeah, I can do that!" Which sort of employee would you want to hire?

Dave

[Bethrine]

Bethrine,

"...after a certain point, the help file is no longer helpful and outside assistance of some sort is necessary."

I disagree. How do you think the trainers learned it all? Trusting training to spoon-feed you exactly what you might need to know is not a good way to learn.

Dave

I agree in the sense that one should not use only one method as a learning resource.

I am guessing that Autodesk trainers have an inside ear to the developers as well as the directions the software is going and an eye toward what users (or maybe purchasers) want to get out of the program.

Where I really wanted assistance, in addition to reading, is on the file systems between using Windows, Inventor Project Tree or Vault for a combined AutoCAD-Inventor system. Also, finding lisp/VBA information is not easy unless you are willing to pay for it or get lucky. (Unless I am missing something here and it is offered in programming classes but not CAD classes?)

[JNieman]

There is a BOAT LOAD of great LISP information out there, and theSwamp is a FANTASTIC gaggle of experts.

AfroLISP is where I managed to acquire my humble meager knowledge of LISP, while voyeur'ing the LISP threads that pop up here.

[mjfarrell]

Bethrine,

"...after a certain point, the help file is no longer helpful and outside assistance of some sort is necessary."

I disagree. How do you think the trainers learned it all? Trusting training to spoon-feed you exactly what you might need to know is not a good way to learn.

Dave

The bad news; many of those 'trainers' are no better than the book they are reading from.

A few have real world experience.

And a thinner slice have not only real world experience, they also have numerous consulting experiences behind them.
Where they learn not only what is actually possible to do with the software, and or how to force it to deliver what
the users expect out of it.

There is a galaxy of difference between the first and the last type.

[Bethrine]

There is a BOAT LOAD of great LISP information out there, and theSwamp is a FANTASTIC gaggle of experts.

AfroLISP is where I managed to acquire my humble meager knowledge of LISP, while voyeur'ing the LISP threads that pop up here.

Awesome! That's the second link I've come across, thank you!! Both links were suggested here. 

Btw, it's AfraLISP 

The bad news; many of those 'trainers' are no better than the book they are reading from.
.....
There is a galaxy of difference between the first and the last type.

What are the first and last type? ...What's possible with the software vs. how to force it to deliver?

(Side note: I am going to get my Asso. degree in this either way, especially as I already have all of the classes complete except the CAD ones and in the long run the paper looks good if ever I need it as well as being a personal accomplishment for me.)

[mjfarrell]

The first type; and I worked with this guy in South Africa
literally reads directly from the courseware and has little if any real world experience.

The Last type - someone with good class room skills, ability to show the tools and
what they do in more than one way.  And many consulting experiences from which
they have learned much more than can be gained from a book, or the help files alone.