Author Topic: Text justification.  (Read 6332 times)

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jonesy

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Text justification.
« on: March 04, 2005, 05:16:27 am »
Sorry if this question has been asked and asked again.

Forgive me if I am wrong, when (many many moons ago!) I used to draft on a drawing board I seem to remember all text being left justified. Except for titles etc which were then center justified. Is/was that a drawing standard? and if so where can I get a copy of the latest standard.

I personally think right justified text looks "messy", but there are users here who regularly use centre and right justified text. Before I put my foot down and stop this I need to have some reason to back up my argument.

Any information and suggestions why I am either right or wrong please (but if I am wrong, please be gentle :wink: , and I will back down gracefully)

Many thanks
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

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nivuahc

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Text justification.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2005, 07:57:57 am »
You are correct. Left justified text was the de-facto standard. That's primarily because, when drafting on the board, we didn't have a computer to work out all of the spacing for us and writing backwards was a pain.

I once worked on a project, a large piping plan, where a lot of the text had to be right justified (picky customer). My head hurt after working on that thing for just a couple of hours. It's just not natural for us to write that way and your brain has to wrap itself around the concept.

Then, computers came along and made a task like right-justified text not only easy, but the default method for leaders and what-not. Does that make it better? Not to me. I started out drafting with CaveCAD (i.e. a pencil, a board, an eraser and various triangles, etc...) so I got used to seeing everything left justified. When I look at right-justified text it just looks ugly.

That doesn't make it wrong, though. The fact that it is the default justification for things like leader text flowing to the left... and that most users don't know how to make left-justified text in that situation, I tend to just accept it and overlook it.

Of course, my users can't figure out the basics of OSNAP so maybe I've just learned to accept and expect less from them.

CmdrDuh

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Text justification.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2005, 08:16:19 am »
I would say it depends on what types of drawings your producing.  We do connection diagrams for connecting 2+ electric panels together, and with the terminal blocks, we can put Left Justified text on the right side of the block, AND Right justified text on the Left side of the block.  Thus, we have nice straight lines of text down the center of the Terminal block.  Would a pic help?
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CADaver

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Re: Text justification.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2005, 09:51:04 am »
Quote from: jonesy
Sorry if this question has been asked and asked again.

Forgive me if I am wrong, when (many many moons ago!) I used to draft on a drawing board I seem to remember all text being left justified. Except for titles etc which were then center justified. Is/was that a drawing standard? and if so where can I get a copy of the latest standard.

I personally think right justified text looks "messy", but there are users here who regularly use centre and right justified text. Before I put my foot down and stop this I need to have some reason to back up my argument.

Any information and suggestions why I am either right or wrong please (but if I am wrong, please be gentle :wink: , and I will back down gracefully)

Many thanks
I'm with you.  I find right-justified text hard to read sometimes.  Our standaRd here is LEFT for everything except titles.

VerticalMojo

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Text justification.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2005, 09:54:59 am »
This topic has been moved to its appropriate Forum....

 :loneranger:

jonesy

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Text justification.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2005, 09:56:56 am »
OOPs Sorry. Didn't think to post it here
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

VerticalMojo

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Text justification.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2005, 10:05:40 am »
no prob, just doin my job ! :)

Artisan

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Text justification.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2005, 12:25:05 pm »
I agree about the right text looking odd and out of place. I also came up with the pencil and board and never attempted anything that was right justified. I always had used left justified until I started this new job. The first day I drew out some details with the text left justified. The boss redlined it and told me that right justified was the "standard" that was used in architectural school. I asked him if he was trained to right justify his text when he lettered his drawings in architectural school. He said no, but it was still the correct way, his way. :roll:

M-dub

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Text justification.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2005, 12:31:37 pm »
Whatever the justification, I like to use Middle-*whatever*.  Right justification has its uses, but not many...It all depends on the type of drawing you're working on, I suppose.

My 2 cents...  :wink:
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MP

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Text justification.
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2005, 12:36:02 pm »
I encourage our folks to use middle left.

Obviously there are exceptions, like instrument tags etc. that are more logical placed as middle center, but the norm is middle left.
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CADaver

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Text justification.
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2005, 07:00:47 pm »
Quote from: MP
I encourage our folks to use middle left.

Obviously there are exceptions, like instrument tags etc. that are more logical placed as middle center, but the norm is middle left.
Really? huh.  We use ML some, but specifically for notes that ride a line:
MPS-23-001\P(YC-175839)

Mostly we use UL for notes.

hudster

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Text justification.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2005, 04:50:35 am »
I use middle left or middle right, it just depends on the side of the building that the note is placed on.
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Dent Cermak

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Text justification.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2005, 11:27:50 am »
Text styles, sizes and justifications were established centuries ago by the printing industries and flowed over into the drafting field.
When was the last time you read a right justified book? It would be interesting to try to read a magazine that was printed middle center justified.
It boils down to what looks the most readable doesn't it ? The idea is to transfer the information to the end-user in the clearest manner.
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nivuahc

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Text justification.
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2005, 11:48:52 am »
Quote from: Dent Cermak
Text styles, sizes and justifications were established centuries ago by the printing industries and flowed over into the drafting field.
When was the last time you read a right justified book? It would be interesting to try to read a magazine that was printed middle center justified.
It boils down to what looks the most readable doesn't it ? The idea is to transfer the information to the end-user in the clearest manner.


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and you never thought you'd hear that phrase applied to something that Dent had to say

TR

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Text justification.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2005, 12:14:02 pm »
That statement is scary yet true.

In my field (schematics, P&IDs, Loop & Logic Diagrams) we und up using BC justification most of the time. We use BL for all multiline text but for all tags and a lot of callouts we use BC.

Here's an example of what really bothers me:

Say you have a Control Panel Layout. Typically bellow the control panel you callout it's name and NEMA rating. Now I've seen people use left justified text and they eyeball it so it's centered under the control panel, which it should be. This works fine until you have to edit it of course.

nivuahc

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Text justification.
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2005, 12:54:12 pm »
That drives me crazy.

jonesy

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Text justification.
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2005, 08:19:05 am »
Me too. I have come across that in previous companies I have worked at, but fortunately there are no users here that would do that.
It seems to come down to the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

Artisan

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Text justification.
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2005, 09:56:23 am »
Let me ask this question while we are talking about text justification.

When placing leaders with the text, do you all alternate the location of the leader based on which side the text is located? Example, on a detail, such as a wall section, one will generally place notes to the left side and the right side of the detail. When one places text on the left side, I have seen them drop the leader down the end of the last sentence. But on text for the right side, they will place the leader at the beginning of the first sentence. Does anyone else do this or seen it? Am I clear in explaining this?

CADaver

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Text justification.
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2005, 11:18:19 am »
Quote from: Artisan
When one places text on the left side, I have seen them drop the leader down the end of the last sentence. But on text for the right side, they will place the leader at the beginning of the first sentence. Does anyone else do this or seen it?
That is our standard method, the leader is tagged to the "end" of the sentence nearest the leader.

Artisan

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Text justification.
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2005, 11:54:32 am »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: Artisan
When one places text on the left side, I have seen them drop the leader down the end of the last sentence. But on text for the right side, they will place the leader at the beginning of the first sentence. Does anyone else do this or seen it?
That is our standard method, the leader is tagged to the "end" of the sentence nearest the leader.


I'm not sure if you don't understand what I am saying or I may be reading your response wrong. Either way, Here is a screen shot of what I am talking about.

nivuahc

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Text justification.
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2005, 11:58:49 am »
I think, in this instance, you were both driving at the same thing.

I read your original post to mean what you show in the screenshot and I read CADaver's post to mean what you showed in your screenshot as well.

Artisan

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Text justification.
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2005, 12:01:36 pm »
Quote from: nivuahc
I think, in this instance, you were both driving at the same thing.

I read your original post to mean what you show in the screenshot and I read CADaver's post to mean what you showed in your screenshot as well.


Ok, good deal than. It's Monday and the brain hasn't come up to full power yet. :D

t-bear

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Text justification.
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2005, 12:11:33 pm »
"t's Monday and the brain hasn't come up to full power yet."
Mine likes to wait 'til Friday, LATE Friday................ LOL

whodo

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Text justification.
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2005, 10:37:17 pm »
for me it all comes down to the next guy,
because the next guy is usually me.
I justify the text so that when I have to
come back and edit it I don't have to move
it around as well.
I use right and left justifications so it grows
away from objects I don't want to obscure.
If you think it doesn't matter it will almost
always come back to bite you.

hyposmurf

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Text justification.
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2005, 01:45:44 pm »
Quote from: Dent Cermak
It boils down to what looks the most readable doesn't it ?

Yeh and which direction do most people read in left to right,so left justified is more appealing.We also use the same method of attaching leaders as you mentioned Artisan.

hyposmurf

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Text justification.
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2005, 01:34:20 pm »
Another question how do most of you work through a drawing?Do you carry out all your drawing work such as lines.plines,arcs,insetion of blocks etc and then add all the leaders/text towards the end of the drawing?Or do you add notes as you move through the drawing while adding lines plines?Trivial I know just interested.

t-bear

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Text justification.
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2005, 06:59:32 pm »
I create the model in MS, create the necessary views in PS, then dim in MS vport, then notation in PS........ By then it's beer-thirty!

hyposmurf

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Text justification.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2005, 02:33:05 pm »
Cheers t-bear Im more interested in those who work in one space fopr most of their notes and model.

jonesy

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Text justification.
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2005, 06:06:56 am »
Our company standard is to have all the model and relative notes/information in model space, all of our work is 2D.
I tend to do as much of the "model" as possible, then I find it easier to annotate the model from there, finding appropriate places to place the text. I find it so annoying to place the text, then constantly move it as the model grows!, so text last means less the text moves
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

www.travelthrutime

Artisan

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Text justification.
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2005, 08:41:59 am »
I do all of my work in model and then use paper for the title blocks and plotting. I get my plan ready by dimensioning it, adding all of the lines, circles or other objects as needed. I save my notations for last due to the fact that I can adjust the notes easier then moving dims around. I try to keep in mind though, while I am dimensioning, to leave space for common notes that I know I will be using, like the common foundation notes we use.

pmvliet

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Text justification.
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2005, 01:06:09 pm »
I draw all my linework, then go back and do text and dimensions. hatching would be last. This is for sections and details that are in modelspace.

part of my reason for doing this is **sometimes** drawings will be issued early and it is better to have 10 drawn details with no text then 1 fully drawn detail with text and notes...

A picture is worth a thousand words as my engineer's would say.

Pieter

TR

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Text justification.
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 11:56:53 pm »
Quote from: hyposmurf
Another question how do most of you work through a drawing?Do you carry out all your drawing work such as lines.plines,arcs,insetion of blocks etc and then add all the leaders/text towards the end of the drawing?Or do you add notes as you move through the drawing while adding lines plines?Trivial I know just interested.


I do Instrumentation and Control drawings so I am pretty much forced to add the identifier text as I design. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to differentiate one limit switch symbol from another. Once I'm done with a set of schematics I then print them out 11x17, get out a red marker and verify that all my line numbers, reference numbers, relay contact count, PLC addressing and terminal numbers are correct, then make the required changes.

Wyatt Earp

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Text justification.
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2005, 03:25:57 pm »
Left Justified rules the Structural Set.
Middle Center for Titles of Tables etc.

Nothing to fancy. Just remember that most clients "see" the hard copy and not all the fancy stuff we use to create it...

hyposmurf

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Text justification.
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2005, 05:55:53 pm »
Quote from: Tim Riley


I do Instrumentation and Control drawings so I am pretty much forced to add the identifier text as I design. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to differentiate one limit switch symbol from another. Once I'm done with a set of schematics I then print them out 11x17, get out a red marker and verify that all my line numbers, reference numbers, relay contact count, PLC addressing and terminal numbers are correct, then make the required changes.


Do they query the amount of plots you run off then,as it would be more than normal?I actually mark mine off with a highlighter as I go.Your method however would be the way to go,there is only so much you can check by eye on screen.

Eclipse

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Re: Text justification.
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2016, 06:39:28 am »
Quote from: Tim Riley

I do Instrumentation and Control drawings so I am pretty much forced to add the identifier text as I design. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to differentiate one limit switch symbol from another. Once I'm done with a set of schematics I then print them out 11x17, get out a red marker and verify that all my line numbers, reference numbers, relay contact count, PLC addressing and terminal numbers are correct, then make the required changes.

Do they query the amount of plots you run off then,as it would be more than normal?I actually mark mine off with a highlighter as I go.Your method however would be the way to go,there is only so much you can check by eye on screen.

Yes. However, I am more efficient at checking a paper plan than I am on the screen, I also 'see' more issues. The money saved in being more efficient, let alone the money saved in preventing screwups is a lot more than the 10 to 15c it costs to print a page.

I know this is an old thread although this point remains valid.