Author Topic: Prosteel Users  (Read 10519 times)

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kdub_nz

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Prosteel Users
« on: August 01, 2011, 05:50:36 AM »

Is anyone here using Prosteel ??

Particularly interested in performance with AutoCAD 2012 x64 ??

Is the API still COM based (VBA) or have they made the shift to .NET ?

Thanks for any input :)
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dgorsman

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2011, 12:00:13 AM »
Migrating from v17.2 to ProStructures v8i SelectSeries3 (or whatever they are calling it this week  :roll: ), but for 32 bit AutoCAD 2011.  Performance-wise it appears to be the same.  They have migrated the add-ins to .NET there, so I imagine that would apply in the 64 bit 2012 install as well.

If you are making a similar jump, beware the config file changes.  They yoinked the convenient layer settings from there and added them to the ProSteel Options dialog.  And the default config file is missing ~ three quarters of the search paths that were previously present (and are still used!).

Historically its been enough of a pain that certain groups in the piping department are demanding the civil designers start using the CADWorx steel module instead.
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kdub_nz

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2011, 03:54:09 PM »
Thanks dgorsman,
I may get a current copy and see how different it is to the version 17.105 I have at home. ( That version is before Bentley purchased the App )

Regards
Kerry
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MickD

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »
Hey Kerry!

Are you planning on using this yourself or are you doing some dev work for someone??

I ask as we are now using Tekla Structures and if you're interested I can give you a thorough rundown and comparison.
A few guys on site are still using PS though, next time I see them I'll ask what they think, cheers.
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kdub_nz

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 08:21:56 PM »

Hi Mick,
Long time since the Bondi conference :)  Hope you're well.

I'm looking at both using and dev work ... primarily with plate work.
Tekla is out af range for App cost I've been told. (the relative cost of producing docs may be another argument :) )




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I live at UTC + 13.00

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LE3

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2011, 08:51:13 PM »
i tried to do some dev/customization with this, to help herman m. - but no luck - there was zero sample codes, zero help, very limited, they were writing back then the new net api stuff and building the help (apparently), at the end i quit...

MickD

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 12:00:29 AM »
As far as costs go, you can buy the 'limited' version for about 12.5k plus maintenance, this version is limited to 2000 parts (bolt groups are counted as 1 part only :) ).
We have trialed and are using this version and haven't hit the limit yet, of course we are not talking 1000's of tonnes of steel but will handle most commercial type jobs or hoppers etc.
Example 3d-pdf of a job below (the 3d pdf tool is pretty cool too!). This used 884/2000 parts.

... and I'll refrain from hijacking this thread any further :)
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hermanm

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 11:26:05 AM »
As of V8i Series 4 (6 July 2011) the API is a "real" .NET interface.

Documentation is to open Object Browser In Visual Studio. :-P

Presently using ACAD 2011 64 bit.
Intel i7 2600 Win 7 8 GB System RAM (typically using <3.5GB)
ATI FirePro 5800 30" Dell

Performance is acceptable with models same order of magnitude as the one Mick posted.

If you've not used it since version 17.105, you will notice many changes.

hermanm

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 11:27:27 AM »
if you're interested I can give you a thorough rundown and comparison.

Yes, please.

MickD

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 07:33:01 PM »
if you're interested I can give you a thorough rundown and comparison.

Yes, please.

Probably the biggest difference is that the drawings are 'live' with the model, if changes are made to the model all drgs that are affected are flagged in the drawing list. Drawings can be 'frozen' as well if you don't want the changes to be made for what ever reasons.

With modelling I guess it's similar to prosteel to add the in built connections. While Prosteel does let you save templates of your favourite connection set ups, Tekla has a very powerful 'custom component' building utility. While this is not for the average user (the inbuilt library is quite extensive), with a bit of training/study you can build practically any connection from scratch. You can also explode an inbuilt connection, change it how you want and then create a custom component to use in your project very quickly.

Instead of having view classes and part families etc, you have filters of which you can build as many as you want in any combination, sort of like saving layer states I guess.
The UI takes a bit of getting used to at first, it's definitely not AutoCAD but I find it quite good now and in a lot of ways a lot more intuitive to how you work when steel detailing. It's more of a 'state machine' that having heaps of commands and setting values each time. These 'states' are easily saved as templates/styles to be used job wide or put to use in you company standards.

Speaking of standards, there is one thing that really annoys me with Tekla, in Prosteel you could set up your text styles, layers etc in one cfg file, not so with Tekla, you have to change it in all styles/templates etc then save that as a template model. It's more of an inconvenience I guess as you only ever need to do this once. You can also create your own parametric sections, material grades etc etc.
Having said that, once you set up your company drg borders, model and detailing templates it is a very fast and reliable way top produce drawings and reports etc. Far more effective than Prosteel IMO.
Numbering/positioning is also very stable and a lot easier to use.

2d drawings:
This is where Tekla does a much better job, the drgs are live to the model and the update 'flagging' is a lot more reliable than what I found with Prosteel. There are no drawings files as such (there is but you they are more of a settings file, you can't open them), every thing is handled in the drawing list. All revisions, printing and any style changes can be made to multiple drawings at a time, very handy!

Again, the UI is a bit different but in some ways better. You can grab a single dimension and it will move the whole dimesion line, you can delete/add dims to dim lines by picking points and there are more than enough settings to set them up how you like.
Generally the 2d output is a lot better than Prosteel and it adheres to a more logical dimensioning process that a detailer would use rather than the simple ordinate style that Prosteel uses.
The biggest plus with Tekla is updates to drgs, any changes such as drawing clean up and added notes and balloons etc remain unless there is a major change to the layout or member. A lot of the time the drgs are pretty good and require very little clean up, depends on how fussy you want to be or what your client expects, it's all very configurable though. Another great feature is the ability to 'clone' drgs, you can grab your most complicated beam, set up all your dim's (manual and auto), add balloons, sections and details etc in the exact arrangement you want then select other members and detail them by cloning the base drg, a little clean up may be needed but this is a very effective and fast way to detail like members.

GA's and MP's can be created at any time for checking set outs etc. From these and in detail drgs you can create 'live' sections and details, set up line types and colours for different job phases (lighter lines for existing structures etc), change scales and view sizes and add part balloons and notes and whatever.
Basically you can produce drgs that look the way you like with changes to the model having a much lesser effect, there is no reproducing details and clean up from scratch.

There are heaps of reports for BOM's , drg lists etc with a built in template editor to build you own as you like, this is also a very powerful tool not for the average user but like with model templates and company standards, the cad manager can set these up once and away you go.

All your project data is entered at the model level and flows through all documents etc like you would expect and saves a lot of work with drg borders and checking.

Above all I lost confidence in Prosteel, if you're not on the ball it will bite you! You had to know it's little tricks and fudges and be very aware of the status of different parts and changes you make to the model and be sure that this gets reflected in the 2d drgs. For a small office this is fine but with a larger office I wouldn't be too comfortable unless all drafters were switched on to how Prosteel works.
Tekla on the other hand is driven from the model, if it is wrong your drgs will be wrong. You can't 'easily' fudge drgs and (why would you... unless the model changes trash your cleaned up details ;)). You 'can' make mistakes with dimensioning etc but that is more from bad drafting practices and is usually picked up in checking anyway. Overall is a safer package I think, I'd have no confidence problems with a very large job with Tekla, in fact the bigger the better!

That's just scratching the surface really, there are a lot of powerful tools I haven't mentioned such as direct links to analysis software, project management etc.
I don't know about over the pond but here in Australia they are now doing 'Tekla test drive' days where they introduce you to the software and get you started modelling and producing drgs with as much q and a as you like, you also get a demo version for 14-28 days to take home and play with. It's free, they provide lunch and it's well worth a look :)
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hermanm

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 10:32:14 PM »
Mick-

Thanks so much for taking your time to write this. Info is very useful.

Tekla is increasingly popular here in U.S. For me, at least, the price of the full Tekla product is prohibitive.

Even were I able to afford it., I would be extremely unwilling to spend that amount of money unless I had solid proof of ROI. So, the prospect of a "real" test drive is definitely of interest.

Having been "bitten" a few times by the idiosyncrasies of ProSteel (get the whole project modeled, only to discover after the fact that a simple change at the start could have saved a *lot* of grief, etc.), and seen a few dog & pony shows, I am naturally a bit gun shy on considering expensive new software.

What strikes me as most different from your post is the "no actual drawings" feature of Tekla. That is astounding, to me.

ProSteel does have, in some form, many of the features you have described in Tekla, such as project and revision management, two way communication between model and detail drawings, and links to analysis software. However, for the price, I would expect more and better implementation of these features in Tekla.

My biggest frustrations with ProSteel have not been with the product, per se, but with the, IMO, poor quality of documentation & technical support. This might have been excusable, or at least understandable,  when KiwiSoft was a small, independent company. However, I think Bentley has plenty of business motivation, and absolutely no excuse, for not being top notch on these issues. So far, I have not seen the level of support that I expect for complex software.

So, how would you rate Tekla's documentation & technical support vs. ProSteel?

Quote
With modelling I guess it's similar to prosteel to add the in built connections. While Prosteel does let you save templates of your favourite connection set ups, Tekla has a very powerful 'custom component' building utility. While this is not for the average user (the inbuilt library is quite extensive), with a bit of training/study you can build practically any connection from scratch. You can also explode an inbuilt connection, change it how you want and then create a custom component to use in your project very quickly.

ProSteel does have a very extensive API, which I regard as one of its strengths (but see Luis' comment re: half-vast .NET interface one version ago - hopefully that has been rectified in Series 4 - we shall see). However, designing & coding user connections (now implemented as .NET assemblies) requires sophisticated programming knowledge and is definitely not for the average user. The COM interface is extensive, and readily accessible to those of us who hang out at places like The Swamp, but ,again, not for the average user.

From your description, it sounds like the 'custom component' utility is much more accessible to the non programmer. I had a long telephone conversation this AM with a detailer in Northern California, who stated that, for many years, Tekla had a very limited API, but they had vastly improved that aspect in recent years.

Again, thank you for taking your valuable time to expound on this topic.
 

kdub_nz

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 10:53:09 PM »
< .. >

ProSteel does have a very extensive API, which I regard as one of its strengths (but see Luis' comment re: half-vast .NET interface one version ago - hopefully that has been rectified in Series 4 - we shall see). However, designing & coding user connections (now implemented as .NET assemblies) requires sophisticated programming knowledge and is definitely not for the average user. The COM interface is extensive, and readily accessible to those of us who hang out at places like The Swamp, but ,again, not for the average user.

< .. >

The API has particular interest for me.
I think I'll try to get a build closer to the end of the month ... something to play with :)

Thanks guys.
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MickD

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 12:04:57 AM »
What strikes me as most different from your post is the "no actual drawings" feature of Tekla. That is astounding, to me.

You do produce drawing output, you just can't send a single drg file by itself. If you really need to you can export to dwg but it is then essentially a simple 2d dwg file.

Quote
ProSteel does have, in some form, many of the features you have described in Tekla, such as project and revision management, two way communication between model and detail drawings, and links to analysis software. However, for the price, I would expect more and better implementation of these features in Tekla.

Definitely. Any sections and details you create in any drgs are also updated, they are also live views not 2d blocks. The drgs are not so much 2 way as they are part of the model and therfore directly linked. The whole project is in one database (which is probably 10-20% the size of an acad 3d model by itself btw).

Quote
So, how would you rate Tekla's documentation & technical support vs. ProSteel?

Tekla has an extranet (which is included with your maintenance) that has all downloads for all versions and updates, extension applications (such as the 3d pdf tools) created by Tekla and users, sdk download and help files and tutorials along with good support by phone (free call) if needed.

Quote
From your description, it sounds like the 'custom component' utility is much more accessible to the non programmer. I had a long telephone conversation this AM with a detailer in Northern California, who stated that, for many years, Tekla had a very limited API, but they had vastly improved that aspect in recent years.

Definitely, as a coder I have yet to need the api to create any new connections, the component editor is very powerful and depending on your experience you could create anything you want and a lot easier than the coding/testing route. You can create custom dialogs with parameters and images as well. An example of a custom component or macro would be things like caged ladders, bridging installation, precast panel rebar placement etc. (which are included btw), these are not just simple connections but powerful time savers.
Having said that I will be using the API for data extraction soon as the reporting utility, while again very powerful (has its own macro language as well) I need to output the data in xml which is easier to do from within the model data base rather than reorganising the report output data.
The api is C++/.Net and is extensive.

If you know someone or there is a detailer nearby using Tekla you should ask if you can go and have a look.
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hermanm

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Re: Prosteel Users
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 01:09:31 AM »
Thanks again for all the helpful info, Mick.