Author Topic: Pay for floor plans?  (Read 6274 times)

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BAshworth

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 09:21:44 AM »
Usually, it's dependant on what the contract is between the architect/engineer and the primary client.  Sometimes the client becomes the owner of the files, and other times the architect/engineer retains ownership of them.  (Regardless of whether or not either party keeps the files.  Ownership has to do more with rights to reuseability than physical holding of the files.)

Either way the contract is written, it's usually a good business practice for all parties involved to share files back and forth as much as is legally possible.  If you are an architect, and develop a reputation as being difficult to work with, and add in extra cost to either the owner or the subcontractors (which gets back to the owner, trust me), you will find yourself quickly out of work.

Put a disclaimer on the danged email, remove any seals, and send the files.

CAB

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 09:24:55 AM »
Well said.
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craigr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 11:07:09 AM »
whdjr - I unerstand your last reply, and even agree to some point, but in OUR case, we sometimes go into existing bldgs, that have been up and running for a number of years. So, we are not bidding against the original architect / engineer. - (Completed bldgs.)

   As I said previously, this will soon be resolved during the initial construction portion. - (Probably by lawyers).

   Unfortunately, in the mean time we need to deal with architects / engineers that want to treat their dwgs as very personal to themselves, and only to be used on jobs that THEY are involved with.

   I personally believe that ANY building documentation that is done as part of the building project, should become the property of the building owner. - (Of course to be accurate ONLY as of the date it was turned over to the owner.) -

   My goal is to make the Building owner VERY HAPPY with ANY of our services, I want him to look at my company as one that he can continually come back to and be confident that I am MORE than willing to work with any job that he has going on with his bldg. NOT just the ones that he is at the moment paying me for! I don't want to get the reputation as being difficult and or unwilling to work with others. - Who knows, you may come across a job in the future that you may need MY assistance / dwgs.

craigr

whdjr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 11:25:37 AM »
Quote from: craigr
Unfortunately, in the mean time we need to deal with architects / engineers that want to treat their dwgs as very personal to themselves, and only to be used on jobs that THEY are involved with.

All of our drawings have a narritive that lists these dwgs as an "instrument of service".  At completion of this service the owner will get these documents, BUT we still have the copyright on these documents.
Quote from: craigr
I personally believe that ANY building documentation that is done as part of the building project, should become the property of the building owner. - (Of course to be accurate ONLY as of the date it was turned over to the owner.) -

This would not work in our case because the State DOE allows Architects to submit "prototype" school plans.  This would not be possible if the owner "OWNED"  the documents.
Quote from: craigr
My goal is to make the Building owner VERY HAPPY with ANY of our services, I want him to look at my company as one that he can continually come back to and be confident that I am MORE than willing to work with any job that he has going on with his bldg. NOT just the ones that he is at the moment paying me for! I don't want to get the reputation as being difficult and or unwilling to work with others. - Who knows, you may come across a job in the future that you may need MY assistance / dwgs.

Our goal is also to make our client happy.  That means repeat business and word of mouth advertising.  It seems we have more in common than we think. :D

Bob Garner

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 01:03:47 PM »
Kinda like AutoCad?  You don't "own" it, you just buy the right to use it.

M-dub

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2005, 01:11:48 PM »
Man, I wish the previous owner of my house had some As Builts!  Every time I go to do renovations, I shudder.  Nothing is EVER where it's supposed to be and...ughh!  It's just bad!
Next house is going to be a LOT newer!

craigr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2005, 02:21:16 PM »
whdjr - I agree that we probably do have alot in common, it just sounds like you are apples and I am oranges in alot of our work, and what is required. :wink:

   You all watch.... In the years to come, I am willing to bet my boat, that with EVERY NEW house the owner will have the opportunity to possess the electronic copy of 'as builts'.

Everything is going electronic, it's no secret. It's just a matter of time, as to how soon companies / lawyers want to jump into it. I have never bought a NEW house, but a friend of mine had one built, and he was given the paper copy of 'asbuilt' dwgs. - He isn't into computers, (YET!). If I every do either have one built or Buy a NEW house, the software version of the plans would be REQUIRED.

craigr

CAB

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 03:22:02 PM »
I was thinking that Adobe may get involved and come out with an add on like the ebooks
feature. You can purchase the pdf file but it is locked up tight. In that way a ACAD/PDF plan
could be printed or added to but the original could not be altered.
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craigr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2005, 04:48:30 PM »
CAB
Quote
I was thinking that Adobe may get involved and come out with an add on like the ebooks
feature. You can purchase the pdf file but it is locked up tight. In that way a ACAD/PDF plan
could be printed or added to but the original could not be altered.

If the electronic versions were in .pdf form, then they could not be changed, (which is what you are after, I believe.), The problem with this is if the owner wants to move walls, doorways & or add on to his bldg. He then does not have the AutoCad version to modify. - Which is why an original copy is retained by the CREATOR of the dwgs, so it can be a document of how the bldg. was when he turned his over to the owner. Seldom does a bldg. stay the same for very long.

Perhaps this is something the CAD software guru's are working on. Maybe they can design into the software who made what changes  when. Maybe even a way to 'stamp' one's 'certification' on the software copies as we do to the paper copies. (I'd be willing to bet that they are already working on this as we speak.)

I guess we will have to wait and see.

- craigr

craigr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2005, 05:11:27 PM »
For those of you interested -

Get this, The guy that originally wanted to SELL me the CAD dwg that started my rant, has just emailed me the plan for FREE!  :shock:

Perhaps he read this thread and realized how the majority handles this. Or, perhaps he needed some existing dwgs, and went through what I was going thru.

Whatever the reason, I am greatful to him. -  :D

The sad part is that I already drew the plan from the paper version I had. And, spent a considerable amount of time doing it! (Ruler / draw.)

Oh well, I will now import HIS dwg & Paste over mine to see how much I was off.

craigr

t-bear

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2005, 07:07:14 PM »
.....or how much HE is off.......!!! LOL

sinc

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2005, 10:39:35 PM »
Actually, this is something we've run into a few times now (in fact, just earlier today...).  I believe there may now wording in the contract that is sent to the client (before starting work) that we will need electronic versions of drawings (if the project warrants it), or the client will be billed extra for costs incured because of it.

So far, the way it has generally played out:  Engineer says we must pay to get drawings.  We refuse.  We start trying to do the surveying, and realize that the plans do not contain enough information to reproduce - in effect, they are incomplete (BAD) plans.  Rather than fix the plans and reissue them to all contractors involved, the engineer relents and sends us the electronics (usually with a disclaimer).  This is the way it goes nearly every time.  Whenever we've had this problem, we have NEVER gotten a set of plans we can just recreate from the paper set.  There is ALWAYS critical information left off and/or improperly labeled.  I won't comment on what I think of this, I will just say that we are not too proud to take advantage of it.  :D

In the case today, the guy said company policy was NEVER RELEASE ANY DRAWING.  He wouldn't even sell it to us.  The job is relatively simple, and the engineer agreed to fix the problems with the plans rather than send us the electronics (which didn't matter to us, because this is a VERY SMALL job), so we let this one drop.

We think the whole practice is pretty scummy.  After all, the client who is paying us to do the surveying is the same client who payed for the engineering/architecture.  Withholding plans from us and forcing us to redraw them is not only error-prone and unnecessarily wasteful of time and resources, it is a waste of money for the client.  So far, it's never reached the point where we had to contact a client and pressure the release of anything, or anything like that.  The inherent laziness of the engineer or architect always wins out.   :D

craigr

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2005, 08:20:11 AM »
Well, I'm sad to say that I ended up being about 15' off over a 1500' distance. (there were many angles that I had to guess at). :(

Oh well :oops:

craigr

t-bear

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2005, 11:54:55 AM »
15' huh?  'At ain't so bad......... LOL

nivuahc

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Pay for floor plans?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2005, 01:15:36 PM »
Quote from: whdjr
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