Topic: Pay for floor plans?

[craigr]

We are a security company that OFTEN gets a customer's AutoCad floor plans to import into our title block, then add our security equipment to that dwg. We have NEVER had anyone hesitate or charge us for the dwg. They sometimes turn off the layers we don't need and send us just the floor plan. Though I usually get EVERYTHING. We also usually have to sign some type if waiver for liability reasons.

We have a new customer that their Engineering firm wants to charge us several hundred dollars for a BASIC floor plan. (Walls, doorways, etc...)

Have any of you heard of this?

craigr

[Keith™]

Never ... and I would promptly tell the client that their engineer wanted to charge... either they client could pay for it, OR pay you to "re-do" what the client has already paid someone else to do.

[Artisan]

If you opt to pay, you could add that fee back on to your fee to cover it. But, I'm with Keith in that you shouldn't.

[AfricaAD]

A customer is charging you for plans that you need to do a job for them? That's a new one.

[craigr]

It isn't the Building owner that wants to charge me, it's the Engineering firm that originally designed /drew them several years ago.

Hopefully, our salesman can present this problem to the owner and the owner can get them for us.

craigr

[Dent Cermak]

The drawings are the property of the paying customer. There should be no charge for a set to do your work on. A copy should be provided to all contracting agents of the paying customer at no charge or the paying customer should have been provided a copy of the e-files for his/her use that they then could send to other necessary contractors.
Evidently your prospective client did not pay the engineer and he is trying to recover costs. Proceede with caution. A LARGE up front fee may be required, if'n yer smart.

[whdjr]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

I as the architect am not going to give out my dwgs to a sub-contractor that is not going to reduce his cost because he no longer has to redraw the floorplan.  If you are producing plans for an engineer to be put in a bid set then they should not charge you.  We have sub-contractors calling us all the time wanting floorplans so they can use them for their shop dwgs.   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  We charge them $500.00 per sheet that they ask for.  They usually say no thanks.  The liability is too great for us.

[craigr]

For what we are doing, as described in the original post, there is NO liability.
We offer our control drawins without charge to anyone, (representing the bldg. owner), that asks for them, as a professional courtesy. We of course ask them to sign a liability form, and I remove our title block from the dwg.

I still don't see what the big deal is with giving out a floor plan that shows nothing more than wall & door locations!

craigr

[CAB]

My local print shop will xerox the plans and provide a raster file.
I forgot the fee but it's minor.
Another fellow will change the raster to ACAD file for $50.00 per sheet.

There is always another way.

[Keith™]

If the client never paid the engineer then that could be the issue.... but as a rule I will provide my drawings in electronic format (DWG) to ANY contractor the client has contracted with, of course upon request of the client. The disclaimer is that we keep an archived set of ALL electronic data transfers and if they are changed by the receiving party, our liability ends at the portion they changed. We have the archives to prove the sending of the files so there is no question about whether they have been modified or not. It is evident.

[dubb]

well i thinik i had a similar case but in my case we were the engineering firm and we had a client architect that had a house that was predesigned with details and everything, he bought the plans off the internet but they didnt give the client dwg files or any kind of electronic files. so contacted the firm on that was written on the title block and requested files. they put me on a wild goose chase, calling every firm that had relations to this design.

i finally reached my last contact and they said that it would cost me a pretty penny for the set in electronic format. i said "hell no" and then i had to charge my client extra fees because i had to convert his plans to autocad. which wasnt the easiest job.

[Big G]

Surely when the original work was done for the client they would have received a copy of the "As Built" Drawings? This should be standard practice. But as was said earlier maybe the client didnt pay up fully or retention is still being withheld for an unfinished portion of the job.
Standard practice here is the client should always get an as-built copy of his/her drawings.

[craigr]

Well, as the industry continues to go electronic, and after all of the legal rangling, I am sure that the end result will be that it will be required that the Bldg. Owner will be given an electronic copy that must be updated anytime there is work done to his bldg. I of course don't mean to imply that any of us could forsee all of the 'rules' to this, such as liabilities with updates, etc.... But I am confident that technology will adapt to cover that.


whdjr - (no offense intended, but...) - You will - You might as well start coming up with your rules to cover yourself.

   We have done 250 million dollar bldgs and have been GIVEN the CAD dwgs simply for the asking!! We have done ENTIRE state capitol government bldgs, (23 bldgs. on that job, if I remember right). and been GIVEN the cad dwgs - (those that were in electronic form.)

I understand wanting to get paid for your work, but how many times for the same work. When it comes down to it, the Bldg. owner pays you to draw his bldg. the first time. How many times are you going to charge him for the dwgs. - ANY work that is done for him, he has to pay for it. If we bid a security system without being given the floor plans, then I have to draw the up, and hence he pays me for doing that. - As a bldg. owner I would be FURIOUS if I did not recieve the electronic versions of my bldg.

- craigr

[Dent Cermak]

It's not what WHDJR wants to do or what is his standard practice, but what local law requires. I would suggest a conference with the corporate attorneys. I do not claim to know Georgia Corporate law, but in my state the drawings are the property of the client once paid for.....by law. I cannot release copies of any files to ANYONE without written permission of the client.
Now you can bill anyone that justs waltzes in and wants a copy so they can make an identical building without using you design service, but as long as the requestor is doing so in benefit of and with permission of the paying customer, you cannot legally charge anything other than media cost for the extra copy. We give our clients all of the files on CD's. He can copy who ever from his originals.

[whdjr]

Well, as the industry continues to go electronic, and after all of the legal rangling, I am sure that the end result will be that it will be required that the Bldg. Owner will be given an electronic copy that must be updated anytime there is work done to his bldg. I of course don't mean to imply that any of us could forsee all of the 'rules' to this, such as liabilities with updates, etc.... But I am confident that technology will adapt to cover that.


whdjr - (no offense intended, but...) - You will - You might as well start coming up with your rules to cover yourself.

   We have done 250 million dollar bldgs and have been GIVEN the CAD dwgs simply for the asking!! We have done ENTIRE state capitol government bldgs, (23 bldgs. on that job, if I remember right). and been GIVEN the cad dwgs - (those that were in electronic form.)

I understand wanting to get paid for your work, but how many times for the same work. When it comes down to it, the Bldg. owner pays you to draw his bldg. the first time. How many times are you going to charge him for the dwgs. - ANY work that is done for him, he has to pay for it. If we bid a security system without being given the floor plans, then I have to draw the up, and hence he pays me for doing that. - As a bldg. owner I would be FURIOUS if I did not recieve the electronic versions of my bldg.

- craigr

craigr,

About 95% of our work is doing Pre-K thru 12th grade school work.  Our clients are the local school systems that get their money either through local SPLOST's or Federal grants.  Either way our contract is with school system.  All the engineers are hired by us and paid out of our fee.  The school system has two contracts that they have to sign: 1. Is with us, not with the engineers.  2,  Is with the General Contractor for the job.  The general contractor is chosen by lowest bid price (which I hate - low means bottom of the barrell in most cases).  We give our dwgs to our engineers so that they can facilitate their work for us faster and more accurate (by not missing floor plan changes, etc.).  We don't give out floorplans to sub-contractors for shop dwgs, submittals, or anything without having them sign a waiver and pay a fee for the dwgs (which by the way does return to the client).  Our main reasoning for the fee is to persuade the sub-contractor NOT to get the dwgs.  We have found that the sub-contractors do not lower their prices to the General Contractor even though they did not have the added expense of recreating the floorplans.  If you are working for an engineer then you should receive the plans free.  If you are submitting a competitive bid to a contractor then you should have to pay for the plans and accept ALL the liability if you don't have the latest plans.  For instance, suppose a change is made during the 3rd week of the bidding process and an addendum is issued (which we only issue to the General Contractors) and you didn't get an updated plan from the general contractor.  Therefore you would submit a bid based on old plan and would probably win the work, later to realize the error and want to get paid for the error.  All this does not help the client get their new school any quicker.  We will provide the owner with an electronic set for their records.  If the owner elects to negotiate a certain portion of the contract themselfs (such as security) and requests that we make these plans available to a select party, then we would give the party the plans beacuse we would not have any strings attached.