Topic: Setting psltscale between model and paper space... Can it be improved

[sourdough]

Hi all
    The company I'm consulting with now is using something I modified and would like to hear from the pro's here on this code.
The object with them was to set PSLTSCALE to 0 in modelspace and keep the ltscale equal to the dwg scale, and in paperspace have PSLSTCALE to 1 with the ltscale set to 0.5. Is there a better way. This works great except when you don't us it when just picking tabs
it won't set and all the linetypes go solid.

Code: [Select]


(defun c:tm (/ sid)

(setq sid 1)

(if (= (getvar "TILEMODE") 1)
   (progn
   (setvar "ltscale" (* 0.5 sid))
   (setvar "psltscale" 1)
   (command "_layout" "set" "")(setvar "users5" (getvar "ctab"))
  
)
   (progn
   (setvar "CMDECHO" 0)
   (setvar "psltscale" 0)
   (command "_layout" "set" "model")(setvar "users5" "model")
  
  
   )
)

;(princ)
(princ)
)



;;*************************************************************************************************
So, is there a better way to do this so that I can just select tabs and have the variables mentioned follow like this
code? Will this have to be a reactor? I have used reactor's in the past and it wasn't stable, so much.

Thanks in Advance

MJP

[mjfarrell]

why would you be setting PAPERSPACE ltscale in modelspace at all is my first question?

Second question is what are they using, C3D or regular autocad?

I've seen this work 'best' with a toolbar button.

You might also find better suggestions and help by posting this in the LISP discussions.

[sourdough]

why would you be setting PAPERSPACE ltscale in modelspace at all is my first question?

Second question is what are they using, C3D or regular autocad?

I've seen this work 'best' with a toolbar button.

You might also find better suggestions and help by posting this in the LISP discussions.

Happy New Year to you Mike. Yes, it could be better placed there in hind-sight, if the forum monitor wants to, then please move it there.
The rational was to help them not to have to hassle with the switch 80 times a day, rather make it mindless. It's not my call, they
asked me for some help and this works and it is simple. So, I would love to hear now from the coders here about this. Your option is noted and thanks. If there is a way to set the ltscale to always be (0.5) in paperspace and not in modelspace please do tell. We use this because the linetypes always look the same in modelspace and through a viewport, thus the use of setting the PSLTSCALE 0 in model and PSLTSCALE 1 in paperspace. 

All thoughts welcome

MJP

MJP

[mjfarrell]

let me look to verify...however my understanding is this
whatever PSLTSCALE is set at has no impact on MSLTSCALE
so yes this could be set un their startup doc.

again what are they using Autocad or Civil 3d, as that has some impact on methods and solutions

[mjfarrell]

or just change the linetype definitions that they use, such that no scaling is required at all
this could be the easiest in the long run
so instead of using acad.lin file they would use halfacad.lin for example

[mjfarrell]

this might also be a typical case where their process is the issue, and coding around it isn't the best possible solution...sometimes folks don't like to hear that; however I've seen far too many instances of code being used to attempt to correct process when all that was actually required was a simple process change....

and if this is for 'civil' type drawings then it certainly appears to be the case.

perhaps something as simple as do all of the 'modeling' in model space...and then use XREFS to assemble the 'sheets' and limit or eliminate all drawing of 'lines' in paperspace at all.

Again; I would need a better outline of what they are attempting to achieve, and not what they are already doing to suggest otherwise.

[Dinosaur]

There is a routine buried somewhere in TheSwamp that solved exactly this situation to my particularly nit picky standards.  I might even have a copy of it stashed in my box of tools I no longer need.  I will see what I can find, but it may take a while.

[Jeff_M]

Wouldn't setting these be the same thing, except you need do it only once...

LTSCALE 0.5 (or 1.0 if using other definitions as MJF suggested)
MSLTSCALE 1
PSLTSCALE 1 (this needs to be set for each Layout)

[mjfarrell]

Wouldn't setting these be the same thing, except you need do it only once...

LTSCALE 0.5 (or 1.0 if using other definitions as MJF suggested)
MSLTSCALE 1
PSLTSCALE 1 (this needs to be set for each Layout)

those were almost EXACLTY my thoughts...why code...what needs no code to achieve?

[sourdough]

Wouldn't setting these be the same thing, except you need do it only once...

LTSCALE 0.5 (or 1.0 if using other definitions as MJF suggested)
MSLTSCALE 1
PSLTSCALE 1 (this needs to be set for each Layout)

The company has there msltscale set to 1 already. When I was at the office they couldn't get it keep the psltscale to set to one
 in a layout. I believe why this has happened over and over is that these old dwg's that they were created in Eagle Point
 and LDD so some variables didn't exist. I believe they went from 2004 LDD to Civil 3D 2011, quite a jump and a lot of
 variables that needed to be added. Thus, my coding to help with the process. We are in the process of
redoing over 3 years worth of work done in that older format to C3D 2011. So, this won't be very normal for most of us. So, my routine
does reset those variables and fixes each layout when you run it. They were getting really annoyed having to set the
 variables manually for so many dwg's and so many layouts... can you imagine?

MJP

[sourdough]

There is a routine buried somewhere in TheSwamp that solved exactly this situation to my particularly nit picky standards.  I might even have a copy of it stashed in my box of tools I no longer need.  I will see what I can find, but it may take a while.

Let me know if you find it, curious for sure.

MJP

[mjfarrell]

Wouldn't setting these be the same thing, except you need do it only once...

LTSCALE 0.5 (or 1.0 if using other definitions as MJF suggested)
MSLTSCALE 1
PSLTSCALE 1 (this needs to be set for each Layout)

The company has there msltscale set to 1 already. When I was at the office they couldn't get it keep the psltscale to set to one
 in a layout. I believe why this has happened over and over is that these old dwg's that they were created in Eagle Point
 and LDD so some variables didn't exist. I believe they went from 2004 LDD to Civil 3D 2011, quite a jump and a lot of
 variables that needed to be added. Thus, my coding to help with the process. We are in the process of
redoing over 3 years worth of work done in that older format to C3D 2011. So, this won't be very normal for most of us. So, my routine
does reset those variables and fixes each layout when you run it. They were getting really annoyed having to set the
 variables manually for so many dwg's and so many layouts... can you imagine?

MJP

I'm going to strongly suggest you watch my AU Virtual class on project migration to move those old projects forward (No Cost Project Migration is the class title).  It removes all these issues and it only takes minutes to perform.  I'm also going to suggest that they get proper training, and stop trying to solve these issues with code that can best be solved with knowledge.

I can promise the 'problems' will go away, and not one line of code will be required to be written.

This process could be more productive.

[sourdough]

I found your tutorial in AU, and am watching. I have noticed that you haven't suggested anything for migrating Eagle Point data just LDD. Most all of there survey data hasn't been available to get into C3D points with any utilities in C3D. I could really use a tool for that. I did find a way to extract Eagle point with the Tools menu and Data Extraction and after a couple of tries got the point data out, but that is laborious at best. A real routine would be necessary for years worth of dwgs that need to be updated to Acad 2011 format. Any suggestions anyone?

  They have had one class on Civil 3D. They don't do much Civil 3D, but wanted to upgrade. The do profile (very basic) and survey plats, so doing extensive training would be wasted. They are mostly Survey and no Civil at all, just 4 LS's and 2 cad people. I had to fight them to stop taking pieces of the base dwg and doing updates off to the side. They didn't want to use the tools in Autocad like annotative text, so I had a uphill battle, but they are growing.

MJP

[Jeff_M]

Mike, can you get me a drawing with some EP points/data in it? I've never used EP so have nothing to test with......even if it's a very stripped down version of one of their drawings, I just need something to look at to see what needs to be converted.

Thanks and Happy New Year!
Jeff

[sourdough]

Mike, can you get me a drawing with some EP points/data in it? I've never used EP so have nothing to test with......even if it's a very stripped down version of one of their drawings, I just need something to look at to see what needs to be converted.

Thanks and Happy New Year!
Jeff

Jeff, Happy New Year to you too, here is a small but representative file (see attached)
 I have done some googling and it seems Survcadd and Eaglepoint use the same format, but not 100% on that.
Here is what I got when I used menu Tools/Data Extraction, see .cvs file (see attached)
Jeff, I'll try to send the .dxe file that goes with that so you can see what it is extracting to your email.

Thanks so much
MJP

[mjfarrell]

Given their particular situation ONE generic class would most likely NEVER do them any good.
They are the EXACT client that needs the type of customised, process specific training that I provide all of my students.
They don't have to use any 'autocad stuff' IF and only IF they use Civil 3d correctly.
The right training would stop the uphill battle as they would then see the benefit of using the software as it was intended to be used.  They would simply see how they can do a lot of good stuff with it and stop fighting.

They would also do well by getting a copy of the SINC PAK as well, given they are so Survey-centric.

I would like an entire eagle point project folder to look at well.
I'm most certain the technique will encompass that data, if not I'll update the process to do so.

Thanks in advance for the data.

[Dinosaur]

I think it would depend on how old that EaglePoint project data is.  EaglePoint had a program starting in about 2007 that worked kind of like an overlay for AutoCAD / Civil 3D and newer EP files might migrate but I know the stuff we had from EPWin95 was hopeless.  Our only option was to export the points from EaglePoint into an ASCI file and import that into Civil 3D.

[mjfarrell]

I just downloaded the posted drawing and the method works with NO revision with no issue getting point data/locations from the dwg.  Or Drawing symbols and line work.

Could be time for that class....

[mjfarrell]

I think it would depend on how old that EaglePoint project data is.  EaglePoint had a program starting in about 2007 that worked kind of like an overlay for AutoCAD / Civil 3D and newer EP files might migrate but I know the stuff we had from EPWin95 was hopeless.  Our only option was to export the points from EaglePoint into an ASCI file and import that into Civil 3D.

And somewhere around here I have (or had) a utility to convert those 'old' EP points to LDD points...however the above posted test results suggest that might not even be needed to work with the data.

That's why I LOVE to work with actual data when preparing a class for folks.

Then I know what they have, and what they then need to learn in order to work productively to get what they need done. As their understanding of the application evolves in the classroom we can expand the scope of learning even further. It's a beautifull thing.

[mjfarrell]

While The Swamp was down for some maintenance this AM, I took the time to review my methods against the data in the provided DWG file.  The method shown in my Project Migration class works as specified, however I would not be serving you or the client you are 'consulting' to the best of my ability if I did not consider wether it was the most effective way to proceed.  To that end IF I were to provide them some training I would introduce them to at least two alternate methods to consider for their particular situation.

As you seem to think there is nothing you can learn, I will NOT cover those methods in this discussion further.

I think that as a 'consultant' you are potentially harming your client by dismissing the need for then to get specific training that would meet their needs and give them a competitive advantage in their area of operations.
Now you may feel that you yourself might not need to learn anything I have to share, I can tell that the opposite is quite true for your client.  To serve the best interest of your client as a 'consultant', you would be well served to at least place them in a position to have a dialogue with myself so that I could discuss both how and when I would be able to serve their needs in this regard and allow then to decide wether they want to continue to struggle or begin to work efficiently and profitably sooner as opposed to later.  Should they decide that I could teach them things they really need to know, then you could then decide to attend or skip the training at your discretion.  I ask you to put your clients needs first in this manner, as a 'consultant' that is your job.

[sourdough]

Given their particular situation ONE generic class would most likely NEVER do them any good.
They are the EXACT client that needs the type of customised, process specific training that I provide all of my students.
They don't have to use any 'autocad stuff' IF and only IF they use Civil 3d correctly.
The right training would stop the uphill battle as they would then see the benefit of using the software as it was intended to be used.  They would simply see how they can do a lot of good stuff with it and stop fighting.

They would also do well by getting a copy of the SINC PAK as well, given they are so Survey-centric.

I would like an entire eagle point project folder to look at well.
I'm most certain the technique will encompass that data, if not I'll update the process to do so.

Thanks in advance for the data.

Mike, I understand your training. I have Sinpac and I can adapt the styles fast. I'm waiting on Jeff
to study the data from Eaglepoint. It was 2004 to be sure. I don't have a conversion pack
for myself, they do for Eaglepoint. My main goal here is to find a way that will not require the other cad people from having to
set the psltscale in layouts all the time. No more complicated than that. The conversion is for me, and most of the time
I don't have need for it, but when I do it saves them having to do it for me.

Thanks for all the help, I understand  your perspective. If I were you I would ask for help from a PR firm on how to gain new clients
your method isn't working for me.


MJP

[jugglerbri]

Here's a lisp routine I created many moons ago, prior to PSLTSCALE. It would change the LTSCALE of your drawing as you switched back and forth between model space and paper space. Perhaps you could modify it to change the PSLTSCALE to 1 as you switch back and forth.

It's been years since I've done any lisp coding so I probably won't be much help changing it but as I just reviewed the code, I did a pretty good job documenting what everything does.

[sourdough]

Here's a lisp routine I created many moons ago, prior to PSLTSCALE. It would change the LTSCALE of your drawing as you switched back and forth between model space and paper space. Perhaps you could modify it to change the PSLTSCALE to 1 as you switch back and forth.

It's been years since I've done any lisp coding so I probably won't be much help changing it but as I just reviewed the code, I did a pretty good job documenting what everything does.

Thank you so much, I'll give it a try and see if it will help the other cad people I work with.
They don't have Sinpac yet, I'm going to encourage them to get it for the old to new conversion
done right with the least effort.

MJP

[mjfarrell]

Mike, I understand your training, but it would you please refrain from that.

What does this sentence mean?  

If you are saying you understand my methods; I think that you don't or you would stop insisting that NO ONE needs any to make advances with their use of Civil 3D.  This seems to be the message that you have given me for a great many years irrespective of where you have worked, or whom you are 'consulting'.

I have Sincpac and I can adapt the styles fast.

Great that you have the Sinc Pak, only THEY are going to need a copy of their own at some point.
This particular issue appears to go well beyond the creation or modification of styles.

I understand your perspective.

I don't think you really do, or you would not deny the people you are supposed to be helping through your 'consultation', by not allowing them to discuss their training needs with myself.  In the end you could wind up being recognized as a 'hero' by putting them in contact with me and facilitating their advancement with this tool.  And you might even learn a few things as well should you decide to attend the training.  From where I'm sitting this particular autocad issue is only the tip of their lack of knowledge iceberg.

[Jeff_M]

Hi Mike,
It appears that numerous methods exist to convert the EP Points to C3D points so I'm not going to pursue creating my own. (If there were enough of a call for it, I'd consider trying to get it included in SincpacC3D.) I see 3 options, and there are likely more. Dotsoft has a routine to convert Blocks to C3D Points, EaglePoint's Surveyor Companion for C3D has a function to convert EP nodes to C3D points, and you've already used the DataExtraction method.

Nonetheless, not one of these is going to help with the PSLTSCALE issue. And I have to agree with Michael here, that a bit of training and better use of the tools provided would be of far more benefit than some code to force the issue.

If you still want to try to use code for this....I would suggest adding a few lines to acaddoc.lsp:

(setvar 'LTSCALE 1.0)
(setvar 'MSLTSCALE 1)

Then have a button or shortcut command named "IFPAPERSPACELOOKSLIKECRAPUSEME" with a macro:

(setvar 'PSLSTCALE 1)
(command "regenall")

The other code option would involve reactors to auto-set the PSLTSCALE when switching layouts....but, this really should only need to be done once per PS Layout as it gets saved with the drawing. If they have to "always change the PSLSTCALE" something is wrong....perhaps they have something already running at startup which messes with this? (Although I don't know how that could be, since the Tab(s) must be current to set this.)

HTH

[Dinosaur]

Jeff, as I recall nearly all of the code solutions for the PSLTSCALE problems failed me because they were based on the use of dimscale variable.  I still have not found the one buried in here that actually worked but it is likely anything Mike is working with now is also failing over the dimscale issue.

[mjfarrell]

Jeff_M,

I could speculate on about a dozen different things that are causing this problem.
However at it's root the real CAUSE is the process they are attempting to employ to migrate their data forward.

Given that the 'solution' currently being tried is brute force cad through code, I don't see much hope for these folks.
Unless of course their 'consultant' has pointed them towards getting at least ONE of their group to sign up to be a member of The Swamp.  

So Mr Sourdough the question falls to you; did you get one of them to sign up here?  Or are you trying to be their only source of enlightenment?

[sourdough]

Hi Mike,
It appears that numerous methods exist to convert the EP Points to C3D points so I'm not going to pursue creating my own. (If there were enough of a call for it, I'd consider trying to get it included in SincpacC3D.) I see 3 options, and there are likely more. Dotsoft has a routine to convert Blocks to C3D Points, EaglePoint's Surveyor Companion for C3D has a function to convert EP nodes to C3D points, and you've already used the DataExtraction method.

Nonetheless, not one of these is going to help with the PSLTSCALE issue. And I have to agree with Michael here, that a bit of training and better use of the tools provided would be of far more benefit than some code to force the issue.

If you still want to try to use code for this....I would suggest adding a few lines to acaddoc.lsp:

(setvar 'LTSCALE 1.0)
(setvar 'MSLTSCALE 1)

Then have a button or shortcut command named "IFPAPERSPACELOOKSLIKECRAPUSEME" with a macro:

(setvar 'PSLSTCALE 1)
(command "regenall")

The other code option would involve reactors to auto-set the PSLTSCALE when switching layouts....but, this really should only need to be done once per PS Layout as it gets saved with the drawing. If they have to "always change the PSLSTCALE" something is wrong....perhaps they have something already running at startup which messes with this? (Although I don't know how that could be, since the Tab(s) must be current to set this.)

HTH

I'll add some extra info, I have already added those variables to acaddoc.lsp, and that helped. All their old dwgs were 2004 LDT and Eaglepoint. So, for some reason they didn't use imperial scales (arch used), and there ltscale was 1 in modelspace. don't ask me why, just finding things as I go. My tm routine did set the variables correctly, and it only had to be done once, so I fixed the having to redo the psltacle over and over. So, I had them, when they called up the old dwg set the dim lt and psltscale. They did get training from there Acad dealer before I got there, but it didn't address setting the styles very fast or anything about migration to C3D. They did it the manual way, so I told them about Sinpac and how fast it was. They didn't want to buy just yet. With there motto of don't do it if you can't bill it was a bit limiting. I had the tm.lsp routine from long ago and it worked for the moment. I also advised on getting more training when possible. I helped them with the basics and we got it to work. Now, all there new dwgs are setup with a proper template and styles and no problems are happening. They have a huge backlog of redoing 3 years worth of dwg up to get them in C3D 2011 updated for their client. So, the job is getting done.

Mike, I just read your last post, and indeed one of the first things I did was tell them about The Swamp. I'm not there only source of cad, they do have a dealer. The problem is solved with template for new dwgs. I will try the method of AU virtual class has mentioned and see if they want to use it for calling up there 2004 dwgs. They are a hard group to get to change, but attempts are being made. Their cad people are barely able to keep up with the work thrown at them, not to mention jumping from LDT2004/Eaglepoint to C3D 2011 just 4 months ago. I have learned something here that I didn't know before with the AU and the Project Migration session. It does appear to be a good solution for migrating older files. I'm all for learning. Getting work has been really tough I haven't had work since last Sept, and I just got the job with them just a month ago, so all is a work in progress. So, you will have to pardon me for just trying to keep up with all the tech and C3D. I will get training from so of the local cad dealers here when the budget allows. The economy here in NC still sucks.  

Thanks for all the advise.

MJP

[mjfarrell]

MJP

Once again you highlight every reason they should get their training sooner rather than later and from anyone other than the local dealer.

If I really believed the local dealer could solve the problems you are encountering I would have suggested using them.  Think about it; IF they could solve the problem you would not be posting here for a solution.
They can't, and I know this from years of cleaning up behind their (autodesk dealers) poor training methods and extreme prices for 'customised' training that isn't.
As a manner to prove this to yourself, search the database and you will discover that the vast majority of them are not Autodesk Certified at the professional level.  Why do want to subject them to more of the same poor training methods?

Really what do you have to lose by allowing them to discuss the situation with myself?

[mjfarrell]

I will try the method of AU virtual class has mentioned and see if they want to use it for calling up there 2004 dwgs. 

 I have learned something here that I didn't know before with the AU and the Project Migration session. It does appear to be a good solution for migrating older files.

Please keep in mind what I said in the previous post.

That the method shown in the Project Migration class, is NOT exactly the optimal method that I would now teach them having seen their data, and knowing as much as you have outlined of their skills and number of drawings they may want to migrate.

I would be remiss if I did not make sure you understand that there is potentially a more efficient and profitable method they should employ to that end.