Author Topic: How difficult is C3D to learn?  (Read 12950 times)

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mjfarrell

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2010, 04:35:43 PM »
Nick Zeeben has said that Civil 3D is not built on Map.  They share the geospatial library, but that's it.

The problem with that is that we've been told for years that the reason Map can't see Civil 3D objects is that Civil 3D is built on top of Map.  But it sounds like that isn't the case.  So that leads me to wonder what Autodesk's excuse is now for the disconnect between Map and Civil 3D....    :|
I've been asking this question for well over 6(six) years???? 
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jonesy

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 07:30:52 AM »
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this has reared its head again.

My office has access to all versions of the software (I believe). Which is the most stable version/least resource hungry version, and are there any issues with projects created on one version being opened in a newer or older version?

It looks like they might have to install a 64bit operating system so I can have more RAM, but theres no money available for a new super-duper spec machine :(
I have an ESRI file of 750Mb I need to open for my current job, and my poor machine is spluttering, and crashing when opening the file. Would a 64bit OS and more RAM help?
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

mjfarrell

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 10:52:26 AM »
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this has reared its head again.

My office has access to all versions of the software (I believe). Which is the most stable version/least resource hungry version, and are there any issues with projects created on one version being opened in a newer or older version?

It looks like they might have to install a 64bit operating system so I can have more RAM, but theres no money available for a new super-duper spec machine :(
I have an ESRI file of 750Mb I need to open for my current job, and my poor machine is spluttering, and crashing when opening the file. Would a 64bit OS and more RAM help?

There is little to NO backward/forward compatibility with C3D....one can ONLY upgrade to newer version, and then the data can't be opened by older versions.  It's a symtom of the Upgrade Virus.
You should not need a 64 bit OS to increase system page file(s) large enough to handle the data in question. You would want to add additional physical hardrives and configure as primary swap file location to Windows.
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sinc

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 11:52:41 AM »
As far as stable/resource hungry, that's a difficult call...  C3D 2009 probably works the best on a 32-bit XP system, but is also the oldest decent version, and lacking many improvements found in 2010 and 2011.  C3D 2010 is probably best for a newer system at the moment.  I think some might be using C3D 2011, but personally, I don't trust it yet, and am waiting for the first service pack (there are already a lot of hotfixes for 2011).  C3D 2011 is the only one that is actually 64-bit, though, so as far as memory issues go, it is the only one that really promises to solve those problems, but it's also the one that makes the greatest use of the new Windows features like WPF.  They did a lot of work on reliability and bug fixing between 2010 and 2011, but they also seemed to introduce some things that hurt the reliability, especially on Win XP.

Contrary to what Michael says, adjusting your pagefile is unlikely to have much (if any) impact, unless you were already messing with it and put it into bad settings, or unless you have 2GB or less of RAM (which is hopefully not the case).  You can try maximizing it to verify, but don't be surprised if it has no effect.

On a 32-bit OS, the only way to radically change your memory handling is to use the 3GB or USERVA switch to increase the amount of memory available to each application.  Otherwise, your app will run out of memory as soon as it goes through 2GB (task manager will probably say you've used about 1.2 to 1.4GB of memory).

There are also some memory limits built into map image handling within Autocad.  These were intended to prevent Autocad from using so much memory for images that the rest of the application hangs.  Those can be changed by typing MAPIOPTIONS and going to the Memory tab.

Really, if you're planning on using Civil 3D, you want to be using Vista x64 or Win 7 x64.  But if you have to connect to lots of Map data, you may have issues with database connectivity - a lot of GIS stuff is still using the old Access stuff, and only works in the 32-bit OS.  So you may want to verify that you can use your databases from 64-bit Map/C3D before committing to that.

LE3

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 12:07:03 PM »
<...>
Hi Sinc,

Any idea about some issues I have with Civil 3D 2011, here:

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=34326.0

No idea if you have seen that topic, thank you in advance....
<back to this thread>

mjfarrell

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2010, 12:07:27 PM »
I want to see the data, and test on a(n) older system I have here, configured as described....just to be contrary scientific about it.   :wink:
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 12:22:53 PM by eNot That Kind Of Class »
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mjfarrell

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2010, 12:10:55 PM »
additionally, one might ask the originator of that SHP file to split it up by layers/feature classifications and provide multiple smaller files...that is unless the data set has already been groomed to it's effective minimum coverage already
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sinc

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2010, 12:40:01 PM »

Any idea about some issues I have with Civil 3D 2011, here:


No.  I couldn't really follow what you were doing in that thread.  But I've been using .NET to interact with C3D, which means I am netloading DLLs into C3D.  It sounds like you are trying to use ARX from out-of-process, and I haven't tried doing that.

jonesy

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 06:00:25 AM »
I want to see the data, and test on a(n) older system I have here, configured as described....just to be contrary scientific about it.   :wink:
I'm sorry Michael, this file is much too big to send via email, and as its a job we are bidding for, they might be funny about letting it out of the office.  We have just asked the other office for the merged file to be put on our network as seperate files for me to build up just the areas we need rather than show large areas that we dont :) 

Hopefully I will be able to do something with those files instead :)
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

jonesy

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2010, 06:06:11 AM »
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but this has reared its head again.

My office has access to all versions of the software (I believe). Which is the most stable version/least resource hungry version, and are there any issues with projects created on one version being opened in a newer or older version?

It looks like they might have to install a 64bit operating system so I can have more RAM, but theres no money available for a new super-duper spec machine :(
I have an ESRI file of 750Mb I need to open for my current job, and my poor machine is spluttering, and crashing when opening the file. Would a 64bit OS and more RAM help?

There is little to NO backward/forward compatibility with C3D....one can ONLY upgrade to newer version, and then the data can't be opened by older versions.  It's a symtom of the Upgrade Virus.
So C3D is like Revit in that respect?  Looks like we'll have to choose the version to install with great care. Do all versions export to AutoCAD OK, as the final version will need to be sent to the client as AutoCAD files (as well as PDFs)
You should not need a 64 bit OS to increase system page file(s) large enough to handle the data in question. You would want to add additional physical hardrives and configure as primary swap file location to Windows.
This information is something I will need to discuss with our IT dept to see if they can do soemthing like that for me.
Thanks Michael.
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

jonesy

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2010, 06:08:35 AM »
As far as stable/resource hungry, that's a difficult call...  C3D 2009 probably works the best on a 32-bit XP system, but is also the oldest decent version, and lacking many improvements found in 2010 and 2011.  C3D 2010 is probably best for a newer system at the moment.  I think some might be using C3D 2011, but personally, I don't trust it yet, and am waiting for the first service pack (there are already a lot of hotfixes for 2011).  C3D 2011 is the only one that is actually 64-bit, though, so as far as memory issues go, it is the only one that really promises to solve those problems, but it's also the one that makes the greatest use of the new Windows features like WPF.  They did a lot of work on reliability and bug fixing between 2010 and 2011, but they also seemed to introduce some things that hurt the reliability, especially on Win XP.

Contrary to what Michael says, adjusting your pagefile is unlikely to have much (if any) impact, unless you were already messing with it and put it into bad settings, or unless you have 2GB or less of RAM (which is hopefully not the case).  You can try maximizing it to verify, but don't be surprised if it has no effect.

On a 32-bit OS, the only way to radically change your memory handling is to use the 3GB or USERVA switch to increase the amount of memory available to each application.  Otherwise, your app will run out of memory as soon as it goes through 2GB (task manager will probably say you've used about 1.2 to 1.4GB of memory).

There are also some memory limits built into map image handling within Autocad.  These were intended to prevent Autocad from using so much memory for images that the rest of the application hangs.  Those can be changed by typing MAPIOPTIONS and going to the Memory tab.

Really, if you're planning on using Civil 3D, you want to be using Vista x64 or Win 7 x64.  But if you have to connect to lots of Map data, you may have issues with database connectivity - a lot of GIS stuff is still using the old Access stuff, and only works in the 32-bit OS.  So you may want to verify that you can use your databases from 64-bit Map/C3D before committing to that.
Thanks for this detailed information Sinc. I'll pass this to our IT person to see what he can do for us in the timescale we need it done.

Thanks again
T :)
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

sinc

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2010, 10:24:25 AM »
You should not need a 64 bit OS to increase system page file(s) large enough to handle the data in question. You would want to add additional physical hardrives and configure as primary swap file location to Windows.
This information is something I will need to discuss with our IT dept to see if they can do soemthing like that for me.
Thanks Michael.

Note that the pagefile is unlikely to solve any problems.  The memory limit is actually caused by the 32-bit OS.  On a 32-bit OS, each application is limited to a total of 2GB of memory use, which can be increased to a maximum of 3GB of memory use using the 3GB or USERVA switch in your boot parameters.  This is total memory usage for the application, which includes how much space it is taking up in both the pagefile and in RAM, and each application has its own 2-3GB limit.  No matter how much RAM you have, and no matter how big your pagefile, a single application is still limited to 2-3GB total usage.  The application can run out of memory, even if your system still has space in RAM and/or the pagefile, because it can't access any more than 2-3GB total at any one time.

The default Windows pagefile settings work fine for almost all users.  You can manually set the pagefile to maximum size (4GB, on a 32-bit OS) if you wish, but this is unlikely to allow your application to use any more memory (unless the settings were already wrong, or unless your system is light on RAM to start with).  It might let you have more programs open in the background without running out of memory, however, since you will also run out of memory if the total memory usage of everything running on your machine exceeds what is available in your RAM+Pagefile.  All a second hard drive does is potentially speed up access to the pagefile, which may be noticeable from time to time if you are hitting the pagefile a lot.  But it won't have any other effect, and will not enable you to use larger images.

Unfortunately, it gets worse...  In C3D 2009 and earlier, the MAPIINSERT command will fail if you have the 3GB switch set, or if you are using a 64-bit OS.  So to do this, you want to be using C3D 2010 or C3D 2011.

The only way to really have any impact on all of this is to switch to a 64-bit OS.  But the new OS uses more memory as well, so in addition to something like Win 7 x64, you need a lot of RAM - preferably 8GB minimum for dual-channel systems, or 12GB minimum for tri-channel systems.  C3D 2011 x64 is a memory hog, and likes you to throw as much RAM in there as possible.  If you are on C3D 2010, it's still a 32-bit app, and is still limited.  But on a 64-bit OS, your app can use up to 4GB of memory, instead of the 2-3GB limit you have on the 32-bit OS, so it can make quite a difference.

As another note, your app will actually run out of memory faster than that.  (Remember, "memory usage" is space taken up in RAM + space taken up in the pagefile.)  Internally, memory can get fragmented, much like a hard drive.  So if you are on a 32-bit system, your app can ostensibly use 2GB of memory, but it will actually run out of memory when Task Manager is saying it's only used about 1.3GB of memory.  If you set the 3GB switch, then your app generally runs out of memory when Task Manager says it's used about 2.1GB, and on a 64-bit OS, your app will run out of memory when Task Manager says it has used a bit under 3GB of memory.  This is true of all 32-bit applications, and Civil 3D is a 32-bit application through the 2010 version.  So C3D 2011 x64 is the only version that can take advantage of any more memory than that.

The upshot of all of this is that the first thing to definitely check is your image memory allocation in C3D - e.g., type MAPIOPTIONS and go to the Memory tab.  Other than that, the only thing that really has any impact on a 32-bit OS is setting the 3GB switch, but that may break the MAPIINSERT command.  The ideal solution is to move to a 64-bit OS with lots of RAM, which is the only thing that can really make this issue fade away.  (Just remember that in order to use the MAPIINSERT command with the 3GB switch set or on a 64-bit OS, you have to be on C3D 2010 or later.)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:27:34 AM by sinc »

jonesy

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2010, 05:19:26 AM »
Thanks for all this very thorough information. I will pass it to the relevent parties (my boss and the IT people) and hopefully something will happen.

One thing I did notice, when I went to see the people in our company that use ARC GIS, the map opened, and they said it was big. There was little infomation left that could be taken out, but the file was even making their machine struggle a little, and suggested getting in touch with the people who sent us the file to see if they can send it across in more manageble chunks for the parts we need.

Next time I go on the puter that has Civil3d installed, I will check the memory settings.

Thanks for your help
T :)
Thanks for explaining the word "many" to me, it means a lot.

mjfarrell

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2010, 10:40:22 AM »
Tracey, you folks could use a Map Book-like feature in Arc Map, or C3D to query and then save the data to smaller pieces for your own needs.
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drizzt

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Re: How difficult is C3D to learn?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2010, 11:17:20 AM »
Some of the people here at the office are having a real hard time with it! I think if you take the time to learn the right way... and know that you need to learn it. It is just time.