Topic: Coordinating the big 3D

[Krushert]

Well it looks like we are going 3d using ACA 2010.  This little Coca Cola project of tripling their syrup facility up to this point has been in 2d with a smattering of 3d mixed in by the process folks.  AEC portion has been in 2d.  The reasons for this move is superficial IMO and after the fact.  You see we are finishing up the second to last fast in three weeks and the last phase is a near copy of the second phase.  It kind of like changing to an amphibian vehicle after you crossed the river.    :ugly:

Don't get me wrong, I am wanting to go 3D but this seems like a waste of money and the wrong time but hey the owner is ponying up the money for it and it is work.  And it will be a great learning experience.

Their main reasons that they want collision detection and something that they can render and use for marketing.  Now I have some questions or concerns.

One of them is coordination this whole big model amongst the 15 some odd teams of the the design team.  We are using different cad platforms/applications.  Is our savior a program called Navisworks?  

We can not be the first ones to be doing this, so I am looking for pearls of wisdom

[mjfarrell]

We can not be the first ones to be doing this, so I am looking for peals of laughter

now the clams need to get busy making you some pearls of wisdom   

[Krushert]

We can not be the first ones to be doing this, so I am looking for peals of laughter

now the clams oysters need to get busy making you some pearls of wisdom   

Sorry quite hard to concentrate with the bells ringing.   

[Krushert]

Navisworks looks kind of cool.  Will have to download the free view later and see if I can find some 3d files to play with

[James Cannon]

I know we're not at the forefront of technology, but using vanilla Autocad, we've got on just dandy using XREFs and little else.

For our larger industrial oil/gas projects, we do it completely in 3D.  Our electrical guys just got MEP and are fully trained and up and running on it pretty fluently, now, so they say.  So they should be doing 3D work with all their cable trays and what not, if everything is smooth enough for them, next time around.  Our piping guys have been doing it in 3D as long as I have, as well.

I am typically the 'model manager' which, if you read the BIM hype stuff, would make me the "BIM Manager" I guess, since I'm the one that collects the models from the subs, XREF's it all in and checks for everything to be kosher.

I do it all 'by eye' to be honest, and have yet to have a construction problem.  The only time we had a 'conflict' was when the contractor didn't use elevation nuts under the base plates of a pipe bridge to bring it to the proper elevation, and instead sat the base plates right on the concrete pads, which were sloped 2%... the bridge was 30' tall, so it really skewed the piping.

I mean, if your boss -wants- to shell out the extra cash for software to be your eyes for you... I guess, why not?

To be frank, though, I don't know how comfortable I would feel letting the software do it all for me.  That's a big leap of trust.  Considering how intimately knowledgeable I get of the project through it's design and revisions, I don't see how it would help anything.

Seeing the projects that you guys do, it almost seems like you would be doing the same I do with these projects, and be very much involved in every inch and foot of the building in every nook and cranny, knowing it very thoroughly.  If you're that involved in your project, you'll probably already see conflicts and problems with clearance, before some software can even tell you.

The other issue I have is when you don't have a physical CLASH, but you still have a problem with space.  How will NavisWorks know that you need to have enough room around a pipe to access the ball valve handle?  What about needing to have 48" clearance in front of a switchgear cabinet?  How will NavisWorks know that you need to have those special access spaces around mechanical and electrical items?

[dgorsman]

Couple of ways around those issues, Mr. Cannon.  The first is to just throw in a proxy block that takes up space - in our case, where operator access is critical, we throw a 3D man-size object.  Operator designs have a "swing" component to show their clearance.  Others just have a blob or block.  Designers will pick up right away on access restrictions and the Clash Detective will pick up on those that are missed.  Another, not used very much, is to use "Bob" - aka the NavisWorks avatar.  If Bob can't get into an area, then you know you've got problems.  You could also use the simulation inputs to run a couple of 3D people around and check for "soft" clashes, or even set up specific clearance clash rules, but I have *no* idea on how to do those.

[James Cannon]

That's cool.

That's actually how I typically handle those situations as well.  I model a very translucent or near-black colored box that takes up the volume of the required clearance.  Typically on a layer that's almost always off, except for specific times when checking for intrusions.

I just didn't know if that was "typical" or if that was something Navisworks would be suited to work with.  Navisworks is pretty neat and fulfills an obvious niche.  I just think it may be a bit of overkill for what Krush does (from what I've seen of his posts, anyways) but... mileages vary, of course

[Krushert]

Well for once, I will the sub and not the keeper.  Another words it is someone else's problem of using Navisworks and they will tell me if there is an issue or not.  But for collision detection my model has to be detailed to the knat's arse.  Am I correct on that?

So how does keeper handle the coordination or owning of a concrete structural slab.  I mean whose has that slab in the file?  The structural engineer or the architect? 

For example we have an 8" cast-in-place concrete sitting on a bunch of structural steel for a second floor that handles 20,000 lb fork lifts.  Now in that slab, there are punched opening for stairs and vertical conveyors with with boat load of guardrails.  I can see headaches of trying to make sure my guardrails are where they are suppose to be in the vertical plane. 

One good thing about it I get a free trip to site in Atlanta.  Woot!

[James Cannon]

I've done similar projects to what the sounds are, of that one.

I modeled all guardrails and openings.  There was no architect on that job, so it's hard to say who would do the model, there, but (keep in mind, there's hefty bias here) I think it should be up to the Structural Engineer to do the final model of the structural components.  That is, unless they are simply there to provide calcs to back up the Architects design.  If the Structural Engineer is doing all the drawings for the CIP deck then he should do the model... after all, the drawings come from the model, right?

The architect may have a general "outline" of the CIP deck for his floor plans, but tbh, once the Structural guys have their model done, it should be done from that.  A temporary "rough in" model can't hurt though.  Hate to duplicate work, but that's kind of the nature of everyone hitting "go" at the same time, while relying on others.

As for the concrete foundation... does anyone actually do that in 3D, if it's a simple slab with grade beams and what not?  I mean... as much as I love 3D, I never model the slab unless it's a semi-complicated piece with retaining walls, varying slopes, equipment pads, and special features all over.  If it's a simple building slab on grade, or even on piles, I do it in 2D because there's no benefit to doing it in 3D and it'd take longer to do it 3D with no benefit.

If I want the floor in my 3D model, I often just model a solid box under it for mass, not for accuracy.