Topic: Countour Creation. Survey requirements.

[Bakerman]

Well said, Sinc. There is no substitute for experience. Most of my clients are in-house engineers and sometimes they seem to get offended when I quiz them about what they are trying to accomplish. But if I know what they are doing then I know what they need.....been doing these things for 30+ years and I still hate having to go back into the field for something that could have been picked up the first time.

[therock003]

Thank you guys for your replies, it's just that i'm a graduate student transitioning to working as a land surveyor. Thing is I am just starting out on my own and hope to make the best of it. All i've got is theoretical experience from studuying and getting a degree on the matter and less practical. The time is now where I have to adjust to the real-world conditions.

[sinc]

Thank you guys for your replies, it's just that i'm a graduate student transitioning to working as a land surveyor. Thing is I am just starting out on my own and hope to make the best of it. All i've got is theoretical experience from studuying and getting a degree on the matter and less practical. The time is now where I have to adjust to the real-world conditions.

Um...  You're trying to do this on your own?  For a paying client?  With no industry experience, let alone licensure?

[therock003]

No i will be doing this for practice and under supervision, but i will not be the one delivering the final drawing. I have just been shown the land and asked to make DEM Contours and stakeout the parcel and provide 3d coordinates.

EDIT:BTW i do have license, just finished the college i was attending, i just havent had any practical experience yet.

[sinc]

Where do you live?  In the US, I'm not aware of any state where you can get a license with no experience.  It would kind of defeat the whole point of licensure.

[therock003]

In Greece, but what do you mean? I got a degree but attending 4 years of college, then you also have to prepare a thesis and practice for 6 months to get your degree. My thesis lasted another year and my 6 month practice consisted of an office job rather than out on the field.

Now that i finished and got my degree i'm free to follow a career path. Either by starting out at an office who hires surveyors or start on my own. If i'm not good then that means that people wont hire me for paid jobs, but since i have my degree there's no reason for me not to start practicing my proffession. It's up to the client to decide if he's going to hire someone who has or has not had experience. By as i said i have not yet started taking jobs for money.

What happens on the US? Dont you attend some kind of school or college for your degree?

[sinc]

It's different here.  Here, Engineering and Surveying work must be done either by a licensed professional, or by someone under the direct supervision of a licensed professional.  In order to get a license, you must have a combination of education and experience.  Then you must pass an exam to become an "Engineer-in-Training" or a "Surveyor-in-Training".  Then, after yet more experience, you must pass another exam to get your license.  It is only at that point that you could go out on your own.

[therock003]

I still dont understand how do you mean exactly. Isnt there a school or a college of some sort, dedicated to the proffesion? How do you prepare and study for these exams you're talking about?

For example our college, consists of 8 semesters (6-month periods). Each semester contains a number of classes you must attend, both theoretical and practical. Theoretical are the ones you attend and hear what the proffesor has to say and at the end of the semester you are being tested on what you've learned and you're grade is being rated from 5 to 10. 10 of course being perfect score and 5 is the limit you have to achieve. Below 5 you fail. And then there are the practical classes where you must prepare exercises, and practice stuff the proffessor teaches you. By passing of course all classes of all semesters and practicing the 6 month practice and presenting your thesis you then get your degree. Then with a copy of your degree and you are register yourself on the engineers registry you get you're serial number and then you're free to follow your career path, whatever that might be.

Isnt that what happens in the US as well? If not then how do you gather the experience and pass these tests you're talking about?

[sinc]

Yes, there is schooling.  But school is just school - it's only the first step to mastering a profession.

In the US, you cannot be on your own unless you have a license.  And part of getting a license is working for long enough under a licensed professional, so you can learn the things you can't really learn in school.  School gets you part of the way; it then typically takes an additional 4-10 years of actual work experience before you can become licensed.

I am not a licensed Surveyor myself.  I have passed the first exam, and am called a licensed "Surveyor In Training", but I could not legally open my own practice until I have my full license.  I need about another year of experience, then I will be allowed to take the exam.  Once I pass that, I will finally be licensed.

[therock003]

Oh I see, well here things are like I said. There are no extra steps like the ones that apply for your country. Maybe that's good (you guys having to gather the experience and that being mandatory) because it forces people to learn the proper way rather than on their feet. Now as for me personally i'm not determined to keep going on my own. If i see that i'm going nowhere this way then maybe i'll go work for an office for 2-3 years to get the appropriate experience.

But the thing is,I avoid it for the time being because i hear that when you're new and go to work for someone, you're mostly somewhat of the "Towel boy" meaning you run errands and do the boring stuff, instead of having someone explain what's happening and why and let you take initiative. And that's partly because they know that once you know what's happening and can stand on your own 2 feet you might bail and start a business of your own. So instead of having to waste valuable time not doing anything meaninful and get paid almost minimum waige i decided to go on my own, and see what happens.

Of course i will be working with colleagues of mine that have already worked in offices and know a thing or two and combined with my theoretical knowledge we'll see how that goes.

[Dent Cermak]

Off-hand, I couldn't find the new standards you are talking about.  I only know about the ones that have been in force for some time.  This is the most recent thing I found in a (brief) search:

http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/factsheets/fs17199.html

I definitely could not find anything about requiring one shot every 30' for a 1" = 30' drawing.  Maybe that came from these new standards you're talking about?

In any case, this Standard was created for federal agencies that produce maps, and I don't think it has any greater jurisdiction.  We have never worked for the USGS, or for any other government agency that produces maps, and we have never had a client request something that conforms to these Map Accuracy Standards.  It's probably a moot point, anyway, since pretty much any topo survey we do exceeds the accuracy requirements for these maps.

In our line of work, it's far more important to know why the topo survey was requested, so we can make sure to get the level of detail necessary for the engineer to do his job.  That's our goal, and Map Accuracy Standards mean nothing.

(Of course, there are also ALTA surveys, but those have their own accuracy requirements, and again, those are higher than the Map Accuracy Standards.  And ALTA surveys generally do not include a topo.)

The shot spacing is a company standard that has been developed over time. We find that to be the MINIMUM spacing of data to yield reliable results. In our area 90% of our clients require that we meet the National Map Accuracy Standards in our work. This may be because so many of the engineers, etc. have done time on Corps work, either in the Corps or on Corps projects. The current Standard for the majority of our work is the ASPRS Accuracy Standards for Large Scale Maps. This can be found in the USACE Topographic Surveying Manual EM-1110-1-1005. You can download a copy off the internet.
While these are indeed Army Standands, these same standards have driven surveying and mapping practices for many years and have been adopted and supported by ACSM for as long as I have been a member. Compliance with these standards have won the day for us in numerous court cases where we have been called as "expert witnesses".
Another thing; I do about 30 ALTA/ACSM surveys each year. Of those, I would say 95% of them have Table A item #5 checked. The ALTA and the ASPRS standards mentioned above are pretty much the same as to accuracy required. These differences must be a "regional" thing.