Topic: Points and descriptors UPDATED a way to scale just points independant of anno tx

[doggarncity]

Hi all
   Inside land desktop we were able to control the size of point/descriptors independantly of the scale of text.
Now, with C3D I am annoyed with the fact that all my points are linked to the annotative scale. I put alot
of topos together and just wanting to know if there are any controls other than in the Point style settings
that can be invoked to scale the points without bothering the annoscale. Just curious. Thanks in advance.

Mike P

I realize that the point style is probably if not ever going to be friendly to the surveyors that us C3D.
Here is the simple way to view points in modelspace without messing up the rest of your dwg quickly.
If you have annotative text it won't change the size of existing annotative text, but your style text will
change to any change in a styled text. Since the points are in styled text this is a easy way to flip back
and forth. I had to update this as I was wrong about the style text changes. This is faster though
than screwing around with the style, but allows to flip back and forth using a stored view at the scale desired.

1. First, set a dimscale and annoscale the same say 100.0
2. In modelspace use the 'view' command go to the model on the left side of the dialog box and then make a new view to say 100.0 and apply and exit.
3. Then, in modelspace change your annoscale to say maybe 5 scale with your points on that you want and the points will scale down without the rest so you can connect the dots as you need easily. When done just go to view and recall the view saved. No messing with point styles.

This is simple and something I hope helps others who want to view points smaller at will.

[sinc]

You can scale points with Desc Keys, but that's usually used to do things like scale a TREE symbol based on the diameter of the tree, etc.

Other than that, you're pretty much stuck with the Styles.  However, C3D labels and points actually scale with the Drawing Scale or VP Scale, and not with the Annotation Scale, so sometimes you can tweak that by modifying the Drawing Scale or VP ZOOM factor and CANNOSCALE directly.  Usually not in any particularly useful way, though...

Around here, we have a couple of different "standard" sizes for point labels, and depending on the situation and current needs, we use either the bigger ones or the smaller ones.  Then, I will also use the "Annotation scale" selector in the status bar to change the scale as needed.  (Note that the "Annotation Scale" selector at the bottom of the screen actually changes BOTH the Annotation Scale and the Drawing/Viewport Scale, which is why C3D elements change with it.  C3D elements are controlled by the Drawing or Viewport Scale, depending on whether you are in modelspace or paperspace.)  So while working on a topo, I might flip that temporarily down to 1" = 10', or even 1" = 1' on occasion.  Then I can read all the labels without dinking around.

Not the answer you are looking for, I'm sure...   

[doggarncity]

You can scale points with Desc Keys, but that's usually used to do things like scale a TREE symbol based on the diameter of the tree, etc.

Other than that, you're pretty much stuck with the Styles.  However, C3D labels and points actually scale with the Drawing Scale or VP Scale, and not with the Annotation Scale, so sometimes you can tweak that by modifying the Drawing Scale or VP ZOOM factor and CANNOSCALE directly.  Usually not in any particularly useful way, though...

Around here, we have a couple of different "standard" sizes for point labels, and depending on the situation and current needs, we use either the bigger ones or the smaller ones.  Then, I will also use the "Annotation scale" selector in the status bar to change the scale as needed.  (Note that the "Annotation Scale" selector at the bottom of the screen actually changes BOTH the Annotation Scale and the Drawing/Viewport Scale, which is why C3D elements change with it.  C3D elements are controlled by the Drawing or Viewport Scale, depending on whether you are in modelspace or paperspace.)  So while working on a topo, I might flip that temporarily down to 1" = 10', or even 1" = 1' on occasion.  Then I can read all the labels without dinking around.

Not the answer you are looking for, I'm sure...   

I thought that was the case and will try the large / small thing in styles and it should help. I miss the LDD way thought much more handy for the topo cad guys like me when I wear that hat. Thanks for the perspective. Maybe in C3D 2010... LOL.

Mike

[sinc]

This is part of the reason why all of our Point Label Styles are defined with everything on Layer 0.  This lets us use either the Point Style or the Point Layer, depending on the type of point, to control the "apparent" layer of the Point Label.

I cover some of this stuff here:

http://www.ejsurveying.com/Articles/C3DPointStyles.aspx

[mjfarrell]

Hi all
   Inside land desktop we were able to control the size of point/descriptors independantly of the scale of text.
Now, with C3D I am annoyed with the fact that all my points are linked to the annotative scale. I put alot
of topos together and just wanting to know if there are any controls other than in the Point style settings
that can be invoked to scale the points without bothering the annoscale. Just curious. Thanks in advance.

Mike P

Sure your styles could be set such that the text they use is NOT defined as an annotative text style.
Then you will be setting the text size manualy for those styles that you do not want to be annotative.
It's a STYLE thing in C3D, and one must stop trying to use Land Desktop methodes, because in most cases there is no anologous funtion in C3D to the way 'we used to do it' in Land Desktop.

[sinc]

Sure your styles could be set such that the text they use is NOT defined as an annotative text style.
Then you will be setting the text size manualy for those styles that you do not want to be annotative.

Michael, I can't follow what you're saying here, so I suspect it may be even more confusing to others....  What exactly are you saying?

Your statement confuses me because Civil 3D labels do their own text scaling, and do not use Annotative Text Styles.  Autodesk probably needs to reconcile C3D Labels and the Annotation Scale, but since C3D labels predate the Annotation Scale in the core product, they are independent of the Annotative Scale.  I setup all my C3D styles so that they do not use Annotative Text Scales, but in the little testing I did, if you use an Annotative Text Scale in a C3D Label, it seemed to be treated exactly like a normal Text Style with height=0.  C3D Labels seem to completely ignore the Annotative part.

The problem with Point Label Styles is that these styles do not seem to include an option to use a fixed scale, and no matter what, they will ALWAYS scale with the Drawing Scale or Viewport Scale.  Or if there's a way to get them to display at a fixed scale, I have been unable to find it.

[mjfarrell]

The poster is asking about both points, and decriptions.

The points  marker(symbols) are easily disconnected from the annotation scale. Either in their definition at a fixed scale or in the description Key set.

The point Labels however are going to require a(n) expression to scale the text to the desired size.

[sinc]

Again, Michael, I think you should be careful about terminology...  Point Markers (along with every other type of C3D label) are NEVER associated with the Annotative Scale.  They probably should be, but they aren't.  They can only be set to scale with Drawing Scale/Viewport Scale, or to use a fixed scale, or to use an absolute height.

This has been confusing an awful lot of people.  When changing the "Annotation Scale" pop-up in the Status bar, it actually changes BOTH the Annotation Scale and the Drawing or Viewport scale (depending on whether you are in modelspace or paperspace).  This gives people the impression that the Annotation Scale is changing Point Markers and Labels, but it is not.  All C3D elements are actually scaling ONLY to the Drawing Scale (in modelspace) or the Viewport scale (in paperspace).

[mjfarrell]

I think I am clear on what the person was asking, Point Makers, and Symbols seemed to be his request.
Not point Label Styles.

Hi all
   Inside land desktop we were able to control the size of point/descriptors independantly of the scale of text.
MikeP

However note in the attached, I the two viewports are at differnt scales, and annoscales and yet the text is still the same size in each.

Or I can have them each have different sizes.

In this case we do have similar functionality as what he desires:
Different sized sysbols, and markers, than the text.

[sinc]

I think I am clear on what the person was asking, Point Makers, and Symbols seemed to be his request.
Not point Label Styles.
In this case we do have similar functionality as what he desires:
Different sized sysbols, and markers, than the text.

Interesting.  I thought the OP was asking how to set a Point Label to a fixed text size that did not react to scale changes...  Guess we read the question differently.

[mjfarrell]

Interesting.  I thought the OP was asking how to set a Point Label to a fixed text size that did not react to scale changes...  Guess we read the question differently.

Either way he has an answer!

[doggarncity]

I think I am clear on what the person was asking, Point Makers, and Symbols seemed to be his request.
Not point Label Styles.

Hi all
   Inside land desktop we were able to control the size of point/descriptors independantly of the scale of text.
MikeP

However note in the attached, I the two viewports are at differnt scales, and annoscales and yet the text is still the same size in each.

Or I can have them each have different sizes.

In this case we do have similar functionality as what he desires:
Different sized sysbols, and markers, than the text.

My question was how to control the point no./elev/descriptor text NOT the symbol. That ought to clear this up on what I would like to learn. I want to fix the label text. I don't care about the symbol changing size. I didn't understand the answer with Mike F with the idea about the expression. What is that expression you are referring to.

Mike P

[mjfarrell]

Expressions are a unique function with C3D that allows the user to extract; or leverage information about an object, perform mathematical operations on it (expressions of the form f of X), and then format the resultant for use within label properties.  One finds them under the label settings for most all C3D objects.  In this instance the user will want to create an expression to use in place of the text size variable within the label to scale the text, although on consideration this task is best done using a text style within the label that is 'annotative' with the text size set as desired for your particular use.  Reason being this wont be the only map of this type that you plot at this scale.  So go ahead and set up the style, and start adding to your C3D template (so you can make people follow a set of standards).

[sinc]

Now you're losing me again.  Why do you keep saying to use a text style that's Annotative?  As far as I can tell, that has no effect in C3D labels.

Annotative Text Styles in C3D labels don't seem to cause any problems (I don't think), but they also do not behave in an Annotative manner.  The C3D label treats the text style as if it was a standard text style with height = 0, and labels with Annotative text styles scale the same way as C3D label with normal text styles, according to the Drawing/Viewport scale (and NOT the Annotative scale).

[mjfarrell]

Exactly, the label style is going to control. However the experiments I ran <and there are some issues> so that if one creates an expression for use in the text size variable of the label they can exhibit the 'non' annotative behavior I posted in that other image.

>>runs off to lab to run one more experiment<<

[mjfarrell]

Back from the lab, the answer is yes one can make a label that is whatever size one wants in the viewport using a(n) expression to control the text size information in the label.  And the answer is yes C3D treats all labels in a(n) annotative fashion as that in theory is one of the good parts of having to work with C3D. (Apologies for any confusion)

However, one might as well just make a style as stated that behaves as desired for this type of plan, map, or exhibit, and put a copy in ones template for later use.

[sinc]

Mike, I'm not entirely sure what Michael Farrel is saying, but I suspect it might be something like in this thread:

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=26356.0

...where Chris talks about using the "Drawing Scale Conversion" to create an expression like this:

IF({Drawing Scale Conversion}=600,0.1/12,IF({Drawing Scale Conversion}>1100,0.2/12,0.5/12))

The expression is then used for the "Text Height" in the label style component.

(Note that the "Drawing Scale Conversion" is a new feature in C3D 2009, and is not available in earlier versions of C3D.)

[mjfarrell]

Mike, I'm not entirely sure what Michael Farrel is saying, but I suspect it might be something like in this thread:

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=26356.0

...where Chris talks about using the "Drawing Scale Conversion" to create an expression like this:

IF({Drawing Scale Conversion}=600,0.1/12,IF({Drawing Scale Conversion}>1100,0.2/12,0.5/12))

The expression is then used for the "Text Height" in the label style component.

(Note that the "Drawing Scale Conversion" is a new feature in C3D 2009, and is not available in earlier versions of C3D.)

One can do this in previous versions if one is real trcky; and uses a User Defined Property to act as the drawing scale conversion factor. 


 'cause i just tested in it 2008

[doggarncity]

Exactly, the label style is going to control. However the experiments I ran <and there are some issues> so that if one creates an expression for use in the text size variable of the label they can exhibit the 'non' annotative behavior I posted in that other image.

>>runs off to lab to run one more experiment<<

Okay, here is something I tested and it seemed to do what I wanted. I'm working in model space and with the view manager. I have for this experiment done all the work with my dwg and done all my text/general notes etc. I set a view/twist from paperspace to match my viewport in model space at the very beginning of my setting up the dwg. I am only wanting to work on the size of my points not worrying about my symbol for the point. With that in tow, I am changing my dimscale and annoscale in model space only after having recalling my model view from the view manager. I manually set my dimscale/annoscale to a smaller scale than my set view manager model scale. This did what I wanted, for making the point only text smaller, so that if I did get more points to add to my dwg it was easy for me to connect the dots of the new pts added. I also did one additional step.  This appears to maintain my notes and Mlearders to stay in there intended size that would be seen through my viewport, when I work in the saved view in modelspace. So, I have, it seems to solved my problem when I want to make the pts text smaller. When done, I go to the saved view in view manager and set it again and it resets my original dim/annoscale back.

   I wouldn't have been to see this without this discussion. Thanks all. I think the key here is setting up the view in model space to match the viewport. When set it appears to hold any label styles I had worked with during a dwg. Then, if I want the pts to be smaller and if I'm adding or not I just go ahead and reset the dim/annoscale to what visiability scale I want, connect the dots and go back to the view manager and call the view back to view I had saved and it recalls my origin dimscale and annoscale turn off my point group visability and go forward. Mind you, this is just for the task of wanting to see points smaller so I can connect or draw more lines.

Thanks Mike F and Sinc

Mike P

[mjfarrell]

You are welcome,

However please note that there is no need for you to be playing connect the dots within C3D for survey lines.

And you are still working WAY to hard to accomplish what simply setting up the proper label styles would do for you.  The CADD Manager inside me is so glad we don't work together.....

[doggarncity]

You are welcome,

However please note that there is no need for you to be playing connect the dots within C3D for survey lines.

And you are still working WAY to hard to accomplish what simply setting up the proper label styles would do for you.  The CADD Manager inside me is so glad we don't work together.....

Hi Mike
   On one side I would like to thank you for your help. I do find most of your posting helpful. But, on the other side of your Gestapo attitude you really are a power broker with a bad attitude. You could use a vacation from, I'm God of Cad with the zingers. You would be better serving here helping with sharing your knowledge with a smile instead of a look down upon the poor souls who don't have the resources to keep up with all the latest on cad. It would be nice if we all had the time to be our best. God knows all here are trying that is why we are here.

Be at peace brother
Mike P

[mjfarrell]

Mike, please understand that your perception of me, and what I do here is completely upsidedown.

If I were a powerbroker, as you suggest, I wouldn't continue to help you.  Part of why I attempt to give back to the cad community is that I know I should, that having the time to learn, and or the knowledge at hand and not sharing it would be terribly selfish.  I have found that the handiest tool for learning the new features in cad, was an open mind and willingness to let go of old habits.  To not be so vested in the process that one is unable to do the task from another perspective goes a long way towards mastering the new.

I hear your struggles and complaints of lack of cad standards, and yet you do not want to standardize your practices so that it would be easier for your users to follow them, good luck on that.

Rest assured however, that I do not consider myself a cad god, notice that I focus on one area primarily?  I do not try to be a lisp guru, or a dynamic block head.  In truth my knowledge isn't that great, however I do know that what I know works in the real world.  I too am here to learn, perhaps my lesson and you cant teach me, is to find a way to make sure that the letters that sum into the words that I use, don't somehow get taken offensively when the initial desire was to be of assistance.  Mike, it isn't personal, I've been helping you for how long through the internet?  Really if it were; I would have stopped answering any post of yours years ago.

[doggarncity]

Mike, please understand that your perception of me, and what I do here is completely upsidedown.

If I were a powerbroker, as you suggest, I wouldn't continue to help you.  Part of why I attempt to give back to the cad community is that I know I should, that having the time to learn, and or the knowledge at hand and not sharing it would be terribly selfish.  I have found that the handiest tool for learning the new features in cad, was an open mind and willingness to let go of old habits.  To not be so vested in the process that one is unable to do the task from another perspective goes a long way towards mastering the new.

I hear your struggles and complaints of lack of cad standards, and yet you do not want to standardize your practices so that it would be easier for your users to follow them, good luck on that.

Rest assured however, that I do not consider myself a cad god, notice that I focus on one area primarily?  I do not try to be a lisp guru, or a dynamic block head.  In truth my knowledge isn't that great, however I do know that what I know works in the real world.  I too am here to learn, perhaps my lesson and you cant teach me, is to find a way to make sure that the letters that sum into the words that I use, don't somehow get taken offensively when the initial desire was to be of assistance.  Mike, it isn't personal, I've been helping you for how long through the internet?  Really if it were; I would have stopped answering any post of yours years ago.

Mike F.
   I'm asking you to cut this kind of comment, because it is personel "CADD Manager inside me is so glad we don't work together..... " I don't like it as it is demeaning and flatly I don't like your way of communicating your point. Understand that!

Mike

[mjfarrell]

Me thinks you are the one that started calling persons The Gestapo.   


In most cases I am not making any POINT, I am trying to answer peoples questions.
Stop reading into my answers what isn't in there.  Really...try decaff or something.

When I read the description of all the steps involved to perform the task at hand, no one will follow THAT as a standard.
If you place the text size with your label style ANYONE will be able to follow the standard.  The choice is yours.

What ever 'other' point you are getting it isn't in there. 

Do you post questions only to get an answer?
Or do you want to really gain from the exchange of information and acquire knowledge?
The preceding are rhetorical in nature, the answer is for you.