Topic: Survey Figure Codes

[tcopeland]

Newbie Questions here: :whistle:

I am have been working on setting up the figure prefixes and figures for the survey toolspace.  I noticed that you have to use BEG(IN),  E(ND), CLOSE etc for some of the line work commands.  Is there a way to use different commands (ST, start; CLSRECT, close rectangle)?  Can you change the defaults that C3D has in place for some of its linework commands (BEG, END, CLOSE, CURVE etc.)?  Also can you change the order in which they are taken in to this:<figure code>BEG, <figure code>END, <figure code>CLOSE?

Also do you have to use E(ND) to actually end the linework, or can you start the line feature back up when you need to use it again.  A good example would be for a toe of inslope or backslope line, when you came to an approach you would take the last shot and then jump to the other side of the approach and then start that line up again.

Any help would be appreciated.

[sinc]

You CAN do all kinds of things.  Figuring out what is easiest, and what you SHOULD do...  Well, that's trickier.   

We do something like that, and dump a CSV file out of our data collectors.  We then use a Perl script to convert the CSV file into a FBK file, which we import into C3D.  It's got drawbacks, but it works OK.  I have it posted on our website at Edward-James Surveying.

There are some third-party apps that help make the task easier.  I'm moderately-sure Stringer (from CadApps) will handle coding like you want, and I'm almost positive that Mapworks (from Dotsoft) does.

[tcopeland]

Thanks for the tips, I have done surveying in the past so I know that there are easier ways to enter (code) shots and much easier ways to do linework.  We had used Microstation before so I am kind of in that mind set when it comes to codes and linework.  I'm looking for anyway to make it more user friendly to the surveyor.  We are used to using the alpha coding versus the numeric coding.  We may need to shift our surveying pracitices to that of the numerics.

If we do shift this over to numerics this would also mean that I will need to change out alpha figure prefixes to reflect the numeric codes, is there an easier way to do this?

[sinc]

We use numeric codes because we have old data collectors that don't have alphanumeric keypads.  We can create alphanumeric codes in C3D and dump them into our data collector, but our Trimble data collector expects us to use Notes to enter the linework commands, and the alphanumeric codes do not work in Notes.   :ugly:

In theory, you should be able to let your field guys do whatever is comfortable for them, while everything in C3D works well in C3D.  But that's in theory.  As of the 2009 version, I think you need to resort to third-party help (or custom coding like that Perl script I wrote) to really realize this in practice.  We've been complaining vociferously about this issue since the 2007 version, so hopefully Autodesk will do something soon in this regard, but Autodesk does as Autodesk does.  And of course, even once they start doing something, that first version they put out is usually all-but-unusable, so it will probably be a while before this is handled nicely by C3D out-of-the-box.

[mjfarrell]

I think that in the end you should try to adapt to the line codes and process as provided by C3D.
As SINC points out what one wants to do and what one can do are not always aligned.
Also produce a list of what you want C3D to do, and use the product feedback link http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=1109794 to let autodesk know.
Send this list to your Vendor, and then post the same thing to the feed back link twice a day every day to let them  know you really want those functions.

It may not do any good in the sort term, however that seems to be the 'only' form of critical communication autodesk will allow that will not result in one being banned from the discussion groups, or having ones comments edited, or deleted.

[tcopeland]

sinc-
I was reading your topic on your website regarding the perl strings, and I noticed that you said that there are several different places that you can purchase different applications, one of those being Carlson.  We have a seat of Carlson in house and are using a TDS Survey Pro Data collector.  I know that you can set up prefixes, feature description, attridutes etc within the data collector.  My question would be can I use the data collector to draw the line work instead of C3D?... I'm not sure if this makes sense or not but if this would work I would rather set things up in the data collector instead of using the C3D commands.

[sinc]

WARNING:  I do not have, and have never used, a Carlson data collector.

But from what I've been told, the Carlson data collectors let the field guy create all the linework in the field.  You can then dump this data into C3D, but unfortunately (again, from what I've been told), it all basically comes in as a bunch of linework and symbols all on one layer.  So, from what I've been told, people might use this feature once or twice, but then it becomes a "novelty", and they go back to generating the linework in CAD.  The linework generated in the data collector is still useful for helping the field guy stay oriented and keep track of what still needs to be shot, but other than that, it is not used.

That's just what I've been told - someone who actually uses Carlson data collectors might chime in with something else.

[sinc]

Oh, and I don't know anything about the TDS Survey Pro data collector, so I can't speak about its capabilities at all.

[tcopeland]

We use numeric codes because we have old data collectors that don't have alphanumeric keypads.  We can create alphanumeric codes in C3D and dump them into our data collector, but our Trimble data collector expects us to use Notes to enter the linework commands, and the alphanumeric codes do not work in Notes.   :ugly:

I has been a couple of year but with the Trimble Data Collector we had all of the line work codes were all entered in on the screen that recorded the shot.  The notes page was for just that notes, it usually placed a note with the shot taken.  The one big difference also was that we were using Mickeystation.  Must be another quirk with C3D?!?

[Dent Cermak]

Newbie Questions here: :whistle:

I am have been working on setting up the figure prefixes and figures for the survey toolspace.  I noticed that you have to use BEG(IN),  E(ND), CLOSE etc for some of the line work commands.  Is there a way to use different commands (ST, start; CLSRECT, close rectangle)?  Can you change the defaults that C3D has in place for some of its linework commands (BEG, END, CLOSE, CURVE etc.)?  Also can you change the order in which they are taken in to this:<figure code>BEG, <figure code>END, <figure code>CLOSE?

Also do you have to use E(ND) to actually end the linework, or can you start the line feature back up when you need to use it again.  A good example would be for a toe of inslope or backslope line, when you came to an approach you would take the last shot and then jump to the other side of the approach and then start that line up again.

Any help would be appreciated.

I think you are going into "Microstation Overkill". Why have a "closerectangle" when "close" does the same thing?  AutoCad doesn't care if it is a rectangle. Why should you? You'll be able to look at it and tell what it is, I hope. You can make this as easy or as hard as you want to. We use BEG, END, CLOSE, C3 and RECALL to cover 99.9% of what we do. All of the line work is drawn in the field to include utilities (Overhead and Underground). The key is KISS. The more you add, the more the field crews will fight the system. Use the Figure Prefix Library and the Descriptor Keys to a maximum. Keep the Descriptor Keys to a minimum number of key strokes (3 letters max if possible). DO NOT go overboard with the descriptors. A power pole is a power pole. if you must know if that pole is wood or metal, that can be noted in a journal file and NOT made part of the descriptor.
The autoline draw and descriptor key symbols in AutoCad have worked great for years. It's just a matter of understanding how they work and using them efficiently. If you get that down and have you Point Group Manager load everything into the point groups when you enter the field book file, you will be WAY ahead of the game. WORK the Point Group Manage to death! There are some good tools in AutoCad that I am told only 10% of the users utilize. That's a real shame.  Set it up right and a drawing that takes you 24 hours now can be done in under 10 hours. That's what I am seeing in our office.

[Dent Cermak]

WARNING:  I do not have, and have never used, a Carlson data collector.

But from what I've been told, the Carlson data collectors let the field guy create all the linework in the field.  You can then dump this data into C3D, but unfortunately (again, from what I've been told), it all basically comes in as a bunch of linework and symbols all on one layer.  So, from what I've been told, people might use this feature once or twice, but then it becomes a "novelty", and they go back to generating the linework in CAD.  The linework generated in the data collector is still useful for helping the field guy stay oriented and keep track of what still needs to be shot, but other than that, it is not used.

That's just what I've been told - someone who actually uses Carlson data collectors might chime in with something else.

Somebody is telling you wrong because they do not have their data collector set up right or else they are using a dxf import instead of a dwg. We use Carlson ands all lines come in on the correct layers. You set the data collector up pretty much the same way as AutoCad.

[tcopeland]

You are probably right that I'm Microstationing this to death, but this is what I was used to using and it actually WORKED.  I'm sure that you already know this, the reasoning for the CLOSE RECTANGLE would be if you could only get two or three shots on the building, you would not want to use a CLOSE command and have a line draw back to the beginning point cutting half of the building out.  I understand what you are saying that you should be able to figure it out, but why not let the software do the drawing for you.

On another note, I would like to talk about the notes.  We are having troubles with the notes appearing up in C3D.  Actually I have not been able to get them to show up.  How or what is the best way for them to show up in C3D?  I would definately like them to be on their own layer unless there is a way for it to be tagged with the shot that was taken.

[sinc]

The autoline draw and descriptor key symbols in AutoCad have worked great for years. It's just a matter of understanding how they work and using them efficiently. If you get that down and have you Point Group Manager load everything into the point groups when you enter the field book file, you will be WAY ahead of the game. WORK the Point Group Manage to death!

Are you talking about LDT?  Much of what you are saying does not make sense in C3D.

[sinc]

I has been a couple of year but with the Trimble Data Collector we had all of the line work codes were all entered in on the screen that recorded the shot.  The notes page was for just that notes, it usually placed a note with the shot taken.  The one big difference also was that we were using Mickeystation.  Must be another quirk with C3D?!?

The only way that we could find to get linework to work with the default setup in our Trimble ACU was by typing the linework commands in notes, then using Trimble Link to create an FBK file from that.

But like I said, the field guys hated the notes, so I came up with the Perl routine instead.   Now, they can include the linework commands in the point description, just like with some of the other data collectors.

But documentation on all of this seems rather terrible, so if we failed to discover some easier method, it's because it was too well-hidden and not documented well enough.  We sure tried a lot of things (and wasted a lot of time) before we found something that works relatively well.

The C3D end of things still sucks big-time.  The whole idea of creating linework during a FBK import is flawed to start with.  Field guys will make errors, especially the new guys, and we really need to be able to edit and regenerate linework in an easy and coherent manner once all the data is in C3D.  Autodesk was hooked on this idea of "all the survey data is locked down and can't be changed" for too long, though, and now we have a mess.

[tcopeland]

The C3D end of things still sucks big-time.  The whole idea of creating linework during a FBK import is flawed to start with.  Field guys will make errors, especially the new guys, and we really need to be able to edit and regenerate linework in an easy and coherent manner once all the data is in C3D.  Autodesk was hooked on this idea of "all the survey data is locked down and can't be changed" for too long, though, and now we have a mess.

That would explain why when I go into edit the fbk file and then update it nothing changes.  So I assume that I need to go into the text file and make the changes and then create the fbk file and re-import it in and things should wrok???!!!