Topic: Dynamic Blocks in Labels

[mjfarrell]

Actually, why not loose the pretense all together and get me in touch with the right folks at product development.  My commentary is not solely my own on this.  These would be the accumulated comments from training over a couple hundred users with C3D this year already.  I think that is a fair good sampling of what should or could be changed to improve the product, to a point that no one could resist using it.

[scout]

are you saying that for sure I can or will be allowed to beta test?

or is this just a tease to give one false hope for change?

and or will all of my input be completely ignored, just to give me one more reason to detest autodesk?

I dug into it- unless you've used a different name and email address, you've never applied to the beta projects on myfeedback, so it isn't that Autodesk doesn't let you beta test- you've never asked.

I've talked to the person in charge of the civil beta and he said that he'd be sure you were approved if you applied this year.

Now... beta is really a bug finding exercise and not really a wishlist/improvements forum. It gives you a chance to see the product before its released, it gives you a chance to make sure it works as designed and it could help you develop a relationship with the product team.

So- will your input be ignored? It depends on the input. If its relevant to beta, it won't be ignored.

As far as getting you in touch with the product team- if you look on the community site you can find two members there with a blog. Autodesk email addresses all follow the same format. Several others particpate in the Autodesk Discussion Groups. The only posts that are moderated on the Autodesk Discussion groups are those that use foul language or make personal attack on other users, or are really considered to be extremely bad form. There are plenty of dissenters, negative posts and rants- they certainly let you give feedback there.

Keep in mind that the product team gets their direction and priorities from the business arms at Autodesk. If you want real change, you'll have to appeal to them. And they speak the language of revenue.

[sinc]

Keep in mind that the product team gets their direction and priorities from the business arms at Autodesk. If you want real change, you'll have to appeal to them. And they speak the language of revenue.

So in other words, don't hope for change?   

[mjfarrell]

Now... beta is really a bug finding exercise and not really a wishlist/improvements forum. It gives you a chance to see the product before its released, it gives you a chance to make sure it works as designed and it could help you develop a relationship with the product team.

If the point of beta testing is a bug finding exercise; then why are there so many in the product?
And why is it released with them in there anyway? 
Take for example the bug of plan production tools NEEDING the user to create empty data bands to push the profile view up into the provile viewport correctly? And the fact the still two years after their introduction, the problem still remains?
Or the fact that inside curves in corridor generated surface STILL contain what outdesk refers to DEGENERATE data unless one manually applies boundaries to same (for 5 years now)
Is it that it is cheaper to publish a technical document describing the defect and some hacked 'workaround' than to actually fix the problems?


scout; have you ever heard this phrase before, 'history is written by the victors'?
it's pretty easy for those that control said records to claim I never submitted to participate in said program.....

[Mark]

Just read this story this morning and it sort of relates.

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=122415838624916&w=2

n Monday 13 October 2008, Artur Grabowski wrote:
>> 2008/10/10 Theo de Raadt <@cvs.openbsd.org>:
>> Wow.  Good luck.  Can't you see we've been down that road before
>> with those <language removed>?  But really.  Good luck.  You really are too
>> optimistic, but sure, learn the reality for yourself.

Yep. If you need an example, search the archives for "HiFn" and the
following story will unfold...

HiFn makes crypto accelerators. Some folks working on OpenBSD wanted to
support these chips, but the could not get documentation from the
company. The company said they'd release documentation a few times to a
few different people, but nothing happened. Theo called them "liars"
(or similarly direct names) and there were a few big threads about
about the missing HiFn docs here on misc, twice they were slashdotted.

Since HiFn is basically in my back yard, I walked into their office one
day, talked to a few people, and set up a meeting with their CEO and
CTO. Both of them were good guys, and willing to help. The said they
would get the problem of the missing docs cleared up. I stayed in
contact with them for a few months but nothing happened, and the docs
were *STILL* missing...

Eight months (or more) later, my phone rings, and on the other end of
the line was the VP of Sales and Marketing from HiFn. You see, it was
the Sales and Marketing department of HiFn that had forbid the release
of needed documentation. Since sales and marketing are the bread and
butter of every company, they obviously have a ton of power to make
sure things done their way. The reason why they internally stopped all
efforts to release documentation is because they used the gathered
registration info for sales leads and marketing input.

So why the heck did the VP call me? --The answer is *VERY* *SIMPLE*

Theo and plenty of others around here created yet another long and
brutally direct thread about the missing HiFn documentation. The thread
once again made it onto slashdot and elsewhere, and someone informed
the HiFn Sales/Marketing folks about the on-going Public Relations
disaster for the company created by all the good from OpenBSD land.

The VP asked me to inform the OpenBSD camp that a FTP server with all
needed docs would be opened in a matter of hours, and this time they
actually kept their promise and release their docs.

Me being nice, taking the time to physically meet with the top guys at
HiFn and very politely discuss the missing documentation changed
absolutely nothing. The thing that *REALLY* caused the release of the
docs was Theo and others around here being brutally direct, extremely
honest, and not pulling any punches.

The less than funny part is, Theo told me at the start that I would be
wasting my time trying to meet and talk with them. Being overly
optimistic, I gave it a try anyhow, only to prove Theo was right all
along.

Theo: 1
JCR:  0

Being nice just means it's easier for them to ignore you.

If you want docs, be loud, be honest, be direct, be persistent, become a
huge Public Relations nightmare, and never pull any punches.

[mjfarrell]

Just read this story this morning and it sort of relates.

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=122415838624916&w=2

n Monday 13 October 2008, Artur Grabowski wrote:
>> 2008/10/10 Theo de Raadt <@cvs.openbsd.org>:
>> Wow.  Good luck.  Can't you see we've been down that road before
>> with those <language removed>?  But really.  Good luck.  You really are too
>> optimistic, but sure, learn the reality for yourself.

Yep. If you need an example, search the archives for "HiFn" and the
following story will unfold...

HiFn makes crypto accelerators. Some folks working on OpenBSD wanted to
support these chips, but the could not get documentation from the
company. The company said they'd release documentation a few times to a
few different people, but nothing happened. Theo called them "liars"
(or similarly direct names) and there were a few big threads about
about the missing HiFn docs here on misc, twice they were slashdotted.

Since HiFn is basically in my back yard, I walked into their office one
day, talked to a few people, and set up a meeting with their CEO and
CTO. Both of them were good guys, and willing to help. The said they
would get the problem of the missing docs cleared up. I stayed in
contact with them for a few months but nothing happened, and the docs
were *STILL* missing...

Eight months (or more) later, my phone rings, and on the other end of
the line was the VP of Sales and Marketing from HiFn. You see, it was
the Sales and Marketing department of HiFn that had forbid the release
of needed documentation. Since sales and marketing are the bread and
butter of every company, they obviously have a ton of power to make
sure things done their way. The reason why they internally stopped all
efforts to release documentation is because they used the gathered
registration info for sales leads and marketing input.

So why the heck did the VP call me? --The answer is *VERY* *SIMPLE*

Theo and plenty of others around here created yet another long and
brutally direct thread about the missing HiFn documentation. The thread
once again made it onto slashdot and elsewhere, and someone informed
the HiFn Sales/Marketing folks about the on-going Public Relations
disaster for the company created by all the good from OpenBSD land.

The VP asked me to inform the OpenBSD camp that a FTP server with all
needed docs would be opened in a matter of hours, and this time they
actually kept their promise and release their docs.

Me being nice, taking the time to physically meet with the top guys at
HiFn and very politely discuss the missing documentation changed
absolutely nothing. The thing that *REALLY* caused the release of the
docs was Theo and others around here being brutally direct, extremely
honest, and not pulling any punches.

The less than funny part is, Theo told me at the start that I would be
wasting my time trying to meet and talk with them. Being overly
optimistic, I gave it a try anyhow, only to prove Theo was right all
along.

Theo: 1
JCR:  0

Being nice just means it's easier for them to ignore you.

If you want docs, be loud, be honest, be direct, be persistent, become a
huge Public Relations nightmare, and never pull any punches.

Good story Mark, and exactly one of the root causes of my being banned from augi, and them subsequently REWRITING the rules to participate over there. To prevent any such OPEN or HONEST discussion of the company, or the products they make in any meaningful way.

[scout]

I don't necessarily disagree. All I can tell you is that you can be as loud as you want over here in the swamp, but the people you are trying to get to won't see it unless you take it to the autodesk newsgroups. I can't promise you they won't moderate you, I can't promise you they will do what you want, but it would definitely stand a greater chance of being heard there by the product team.

But I have said this before. I also have not uncovered any evidence of an anti-mjf conspiracy. But of course, they could still be covering it up

[Dinosaur]

First of all Scout, I want to thank you and tell you I think it is awesome that you still drop into TheSwamp on occasion to lend some help and words of wisdom.  Now I am going to have to disagree with you and pick on the newsgroups. 
I know from my experience here that the moderator has a very tight line to walk sometimes and over all I think Autodesk does a pretty fair job of moderating those groups.  I have been quite surprised that certain threads have been allowed to stay intact.  They have though, taken full advantage of the huge volume of posts they get daily to passively moderate the topics they can't or don't want to discuss.  Back long before that disastrous new forum format change I posted a number of very specific problems which received perhaps 3 responses in total from users experiencing the same or similar problem.  I didn't throw them any hardballs or even softballs - more like Nerff Balls.  I was polite and absolutely adorable at all times, but not one word - zip, nothing from anyone identifiable as Autodeskers to even acknowledge that I had a problem.  Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.  I would suggest you do a search for my user name to verify this story, but I wouldn't wish their new search engine for such a task on anyone.  I had pretty much stopped visiting there before they changed the format and now I have lost almost all interest in returning.  I gave up on the Civil Community site months ago due to lack of new content and very little that was NOT new.

[scout]

Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.

I do remember recently that a few threads disappeared. I don't recall the specifics, and I am sure it wasn't you, but there were some troublemakers making personal attacks and generally being bad sports. I don't read every thread, but as you mentioned, I have seen plenty of rants, defect reports and general product unhappiness remain intact. Some of mine from days of yore are still alive. If a particular thread ever catches your eye as potentially being one that would get axed- hit me with the URL so that I can pay attention and find out what might be happening under the hood.

As far as the Community Site goes- I agree. It's actually something that I've become involved with. It will take another month or two, but good things are happening. It will house the new incarnation of Civil 3D Rocks amoungst other things.

You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons. Many of us can't provide answers about why something is broken or works a certain way, and if we respond it makes it seem like we can. A few developers and QA people will pipe in when they have a good answer or would like to test a drawing further to track things down. Also, sometimes we know the answers but our confidentiality rules prevent us from telling, so any involvement would just make things worse.

This all sounds like a total pack of spin speak I am sure, but the fact is that Autodesk is a big company that makes products that are used worldwide. If you are expecting a nimble company with developers that are accessible to you and immediately responsive to your feedback, maybe Autodesk products aren't the answer. I really like working here and I believe in what I am doing, and I believe that every day my work helps move the art of civil engineering design forward.

I stand by what I said here: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=23136.msg278927#msg278927 about how best to get involved in moving Civil 3D forward.

While I can't always tell you everything, and I am not going to call out any of my coworkers, I will tell you what I can and take your feedback to the right people when its warranted.

[scout]

You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons.

However- that doesn't mean that plenty of 'deskers aren't reading the DG and using the issues exposed their to fuel their work in support, QA and development.

[Dinosaur]

Scout, despite my 5 months of exile from Civil 3D and little hope for repatriation any time soon and also regardless of my recent rants regarding its shortcomings as a viable solution for at least my purposes when I used it, I care deeply about the product.  I lobbied HARD in its favor since almost my first post here in TheSwamp in 2004.  It still remains, in my opinion, the best product available to perform the job I needed it to do.
Now, I find myself in a position where I have no access to Autodesk as an unhappy or even potential customer.  I have one computer left to install trial versions on to keep from losing contact completely with the focus of the last 4 years of my professional life and to paraphrase a quote from John Postlewaite, the baby is still very ugly indeed.  I would be very interested in trying to be a positive force in taking Civil 3D the last ten or twenty percent of the way to real maturity but is there a channel of entry available for such a non customer with absolutely zero potential as a sales prospect?

[mjfarrell]

Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.

I do remember recently that a few threads disappeared. I don't recall the specifics, and I am sure it wasn't you, but there were some troublemakers making personal attacks and generally being bad sports. I don't read every thread, but as you mentioned, I have seen plenty of rants, defect reports and general product unhappiness remain intact. Some of mine from days of yore are still alive. If a particular thread ever catches your eye as potentially being one that would get axed- hit me with the URL so that I can pay attention and find out what might be happening under the hood.

As far as the Community Site goes- I agree. It's actually something that I've become involved with. It will take another month or two, but good things are happening. It will house the new incarnation of Civil 3D Rocks amoungst other things.

You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons. Many of us can't provide answers about why something is broken or works a certain way, and if we respond it makes it seem like we can. A few developers and QA people will pipe in when they have a good answer or would like to test a drawing further to track things down. Also, sometimes we know the answers but our confidentiality rules prevent us from telling, so any involvement would just make things worse.

This all sounds like a total pack of spin speak I am sure, but the fact is that Autodesk is a big company that makes products that are used worldwide. If you are expecting a nimble company with developers that are accessible to you and immediately responsive to your feedback, maybe Autodesk products aren't the answer. I really like working here and I believe in what I am doing, and I believe that every day my work helps move the art of civil engineering design forward.

I stand by what I said here: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=23136.msg278927#msg278927 about how best to get involved in moving Civil 3D forward.

While I can't always tell you everything, and I am not going to call out any of my coworkers, I will tell you what I can and take your feedback to the right people when its warranted.

A lot of what you say here, sounds a little like this:

Even thought an autodesk employee may read the discussion groups, they most likely can not or will not participate, because autodesk wont let them be honset, so there really is nor reason for them participate there, or for a user to expact any real answers from them by posting there.

Sounds like an excellent reason for them to get and keep an anonymous log in here at the swamp so that they can participate in a more un censored environment to the betterment of the products they work on.

Also sounds like, the exact reason I find it futile to participate there, because of the 'apparent' lack of involvement because they can not participate freely there, and most likely will not answer a question even if they have the answer, i.e. That feature, or function is broken, we know about it, however we can't or wont fix it due to the business model of our employer. 

However thanks for clarifying what I suspected!

[scout]

Also sounds like, the exact reason I find it futile to participate there, because of the 'apparent' lack of involvement because they can not participate freely there, and most likely will not answer a question even if they have the answer, i.e. That feature, or function is broken, we know about it, however we can't or wont fix it due to the business model of our employer. 

I think you interpreted my post more or less correctly. The only thing I'd say is that while you may not get a response, you are about 10,000X more likely to have your request actually seen by someone who can make a difference on the autodesk DG. One of the guys pinged me today asking for some clarification of something he saw on the wishlist group. We talked about it for a few minutes and came up with some ideas.

Another example of particpation can be found here: http://discussion.autodesk.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=6056492&#6056492

There are a few heavy users of the discussion groups that have recently become autodesk employees. This may also encourage more participation. We shall see.

As far as the Swamp goes, I don't think you'll find many deskers coming in under the cover of complete darkness. I know two deskers who read the swamp somewhat occasionally- including myself. If you want support and kinship- the swamp is great. But if you want to have your issues read by anyone who can really take it into consideration, its not.

[Dinosaur]

The thing is scout, it does not mean a whole lot that someone from Autodesk actually read about a problem I am having if they can neither be bothered to acknowledge that it was seen or even something that they were or would be addressing (or if it was "as designed - live with it) nor make any progress toward a solution over two release cycles.  With such a non-response, my efforts carry about the same weight as a mosquito phart during a hurricane.  Additionally, by posting here I can usually find some kind of ready answer if not a solution and need not worry about being admonished by multiple regulars for unintentionally breaking some mystic protocol as many infrequent visitors to the newsgroups have endured.

[ChristopherF]

If you have an .edu email address you can always download the student version from the http://students.autodesk.com/ site.

...is there a channel of entry available for such a non customer with absolutely zero potential as a sales prospect?