Author Topic: Dynamic Blocks in Labels  (Read 7371 times)

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mjfarrell

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Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« on: October 14, 2008, 11:37:24 AM »
Why in the world would autodesk decide that users can NOT use dynamic blocks within C3D Labels?

I have ran several tests, and one must explode the stupid label a minimum of 3 times in order to reveal the dynamic block within the label in order to use any of the dynamic block functionality.  Please run a few test and confirm that yet again I have NOT lost touch with reality.

If a user could include some dynamic block functionality within a label style some really good stuff could be done with them.  And I can see no real reason why the block functionality is completely hidden within the label style. 
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 12:06:41 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . . if dynamic blocks behaved in normal AutoCAD manner, then I would also expect most other AtuoCAD commands and procedures to work normally as well.  If memory serves me correctly, virtually zero commands work as expected on Civil 3D labels and one must dig deeply into the label composer to manipulate them in even simple ways.
I have about concluded that Civil 3D just tries to do too much and should be split between a design program with basic labeling ability for reference (just about where it is now) and a plan production package with highly developed drafting ability.  They are close with their new lineup except they erred in how they carved it up.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 12:11:01 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

I could not find the DISGUST icon...

This isn't suprise it is absolute disgust.  And to be clear in it's current state (still using 'intelligent' labels) labeling through to an XREF of the data, still does not overcome the limitations of the label style functionality. 
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Michael Farrell
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Mark

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »
Please run a few test and confirm that yet again I have NOT lost touch with reality.

Ran one test on a point style and no I cannot use the blocks functionality.

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sinc

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 02:20:02 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

Really.  Next thing you know, Micheal's going to be shocked that Fields can't be used inside of Civil-3D Labels.   :lmao:

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 02:36:19 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

Really.  Next thing you know, Micheal's going to be shocked that Fields can't be used inside of Civil-3D Labels.   :lmao:

No, I already knew one couldn't use fields in C3D labels.   :roll:


It's just disgusting really.  Why does no one test this stuff more thouroughly? 

And as you might have guessed they will not allow me to 'beta' test it.

So if any of you are involved in beta testing please let me help you......although I sincerely doubt they really care or attempt to fix any of the reported issues at that phase any way.
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 07:42:03 PM »
I could not find the DISGUST icon...

This isn't suprise it is absolute disgust.  And to be clear in it's current state (still using 'intelligent' labels) labeling through to an XREF of the data, still does not overcome the limitations of the label style functionality. 
Is that it then . . . no comment or challenge on my assertion that the design and drafting functions within Civil 3D each have demands that the other can not accommodate or actively interfere with and must be split for the good of the product and mental health of those who use it?
I don't know how many hours I spent off the clock at home trying to develop styles and label sets that would create the annotation expected by our clients, needed by our field crews and demanded by the reviewing agencies.  I never even got a start with parcels and their segments, but I finally got at least the basics set up for general segments and alignments.  My conclusion after creating my "final" plat was that even my general label set was really too much trouble to be worth using except for very uncomplicated project.  Profiles for street and sanitary sewers worked pretty well but both still had major problems where they connected to existing infrastructure.  Storm sewers continued to be a complete disaster because the same problems connecting to existing structures and mixed in the inability of the program to generate reliable numbers for wall to wall design with rectangular structures.  I found the plan production tools far more trouble to mess with than any benefit the provided me.  I had a grand total of ONE project that had a profile more than 2 sheets in length ( a 6 sheet sanitary main in 2007 that predated the tools) while virtually every project had at least half the profile sheets with 2, 3 or even 4 different profiles crammed onto each.  I had to roll my own solution with the same general procedures I used with LDT or EaglePoint.  The end result was that even using every bit of Civil 3D that would yield the desired finished product, I would have to create 20% to 40% of the work using vanilla AutoCAD procedures.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 08:32:45 PM »
My contention is that many who use C3D do not fully utilize all of the tools.
For a myriad of reason, most stemming from incomplete understanding of the tools (training issues), and the poor design of many of the tools.
This leads to a vast combination of hybrid methods partially using generic autocad functions, and lisp to deal with the poor product design, and lack of user training.
The current design of the software is a direct result of far too many firms not understanding that C3D is a design and drafting tool and they insist on attempting to design by redline; instead of teaching the engineers and designers to use the tool (C3D) as it is intended to be used.  Thus they have added the ability to label through XREFS, etc.  There is a great deal that can be done with the product as it exists, however autodesk has a long way to go to include, or improve the functionality such that the more users will adopt it and use it as the design, and drafting tool it is intended to be.

However until such time that autodesk admits that the program is flawed, and allows for greater user input to direct the product development, I do not see this happening anytime soon. 

As it stands most adopt a very bastardized methodology to overcome the above issues I see very few firms being able to employ C3D in its pure form to accomplish their production efforts.

Anyone working with or for autodesk; I again offer to discuss these issues at length at no charge should you really desire to improve the product.  Come on what do you have to loose except the price of a plane ticket and a hotel room, and perhaps a few bruised egos to make this product truly great?  I'm certain you spend more on marketing it in one month than this would cost you.
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 10:36:41 PM »
My contention is that many who use C3D do not fully utilize all of the tools.
For a myriad of reason, most stemming from incomplete understanding of the tools (training issues), and the poor design of many of the tools.
This leads to a vast combination of hybrid methods partially using generic autocad functions, and lisp to deal with the poor product design, and lack of user training.
True enough although there are still certain things that can not be accomplished with Civil 3D regardless the amount of training or commitment.  My problems with parcels and plan production could have been overcome with more training and commitment but time and energy ran out on the whole experiment.  Storm sewers were and remain a hopeless mission that has yet to be addressed by Autodesk rendering a full third of my responsibilities impossible to complete without said hybrid measures and another quarter only at the very start of the learning curve.
The current design of the software is a direct result of far too many firms not understanding that C3D is a design and drafting tool and they insist on attempting to design by redline; instead of teaching the engineers and designers to use the tool (C3D) as it is intended to be used.
We actually did pretty well at this . . . at least through the first round of comments.
However until such time that autodesk admits that the program is flawed, and allows for greater user input to direct the product development, I do not see this happening anytime soon. 
I don't see this happening as long as they have the official beta testing crammed full of every day users who wouldn't say "the well known substance" (even with a mouth full of it) about the release candidate's shortcomings for fear of not being invited back for a return gig the next year.
As it stands most adopt a very bastardized methodology to overcome the above issues I see very few firms being able to employ C3D in its pure form to accomplish their production efforts.
And those few can do this only because they enjoy a situation where plan reviewers are not imposing a standard that is not economically feasible if even possible to meet with the program in its current state.  It is close - perhaps even 80% or 90% there but the things nearest completing the journey have stalled with the latest releases which indicates to me Autodesk thinks they are "good enough" - something I have always thought "never is."

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 02:39:40 AM »
DinØ,

I couldn't agree more with some of your points DinØ.  I think where you folks hit the wall is similar to some of my clients.  Not everyone comes to class to see the real power of what C3D can do.  In the end they miss the shift in process that C3D affords.  The real benefit is that should one accept that it is a design tool, and get out of the revision cycle (redline) mindset C3D offers huge time, cost and profit advantages.

All of the above despite the fact that it does require an investment in acquiring the skills to use it. That and the patience of a rock to deal with some of the inherit flaws in the product design.  Example, just this AM I was adjusting a code set label style and thought that I had lost my mind.  Each time I attempted to edit the label style I was presented with ONLY the FORMAT tab of the label style composer.  Finally in a pique of frustration, I recalled the OLD days of autocad and simply shut down the application, reopened the file, and viola, the PROPERTIES tab presented itself so that I could alter the label code.  Absolutely not the type of behavior one would desire in a software package costing over $6000.00 to own.  There are freeware products out there that work far better, and yet autodesk denies such problems exists.

The beta (usability) testing is flawed.  And the  snoop-ware based Customer Involvement system worse yet, when one looks at the data and sees that 86% of the time a user is deleting an object(?) surely someone somewhere must certainly be drawing the objects that are being deleted. 
I have noting to lose and autodesk has everything to gain by listening to the voice of one of the products most passionate users about what to change, fix, or add to make the product better.
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 10:07:10 AM »
I don't see this happening as long as they have the official beta testing crammed full of every day users who wouldn't say "the well known substance" (even with a mouth full of it) about the release candidate's shortcomings for fear of not being invited back for a return gig the next year.

The flaws are far deeper and more wide-spread than that.

From what I can tell, the beta testing period is a brief timeframe during which they are simply trying to identify new quirks introduced by recent code changes, and get some of those fixed before everything goes to production.  Even if they get feedback at that point that an entire new feature was designed incorrectly from the ground up, it's too late at that point for them to do anything about it, and they aren't interested in that sort of feedback, even though it's really the most important thing they could hear.  It simply doesn't do them any good in the beta test phase; it's already too late.  And once something wrong has been introduced to the product (e.g., Siteless Alignments, the horrid design of Parcels, the horrid design of Labels, etc.), it tends to stay in next year's version too, even if they get feedback in the beta period that they should have done something else.

But this is only one of many, many, many ways Autodesk's software processes seem to be flawed.  It's difficult to say what's happening inside of Autodesk, but some things shine through.  Just from what we can see, Autodesk's software processes are seriously flawed, starting with the way marketing drives development, and going from there.  And it's not really like they can do something simple, like simply stop the yearly release cycle.  The yearly release cycle in itself is not the reason we see so many bugs, the bugs are the result of other aspects of the overall development process, which includes everything from the definition of new requirements to the QA/QC.  So many things are wrong that they can't simply make a few tweaks here and there and fix it - they need systemic change, and that's something that is very difficult to accomplish in a multi-national corporation like Autodesk.  It doesn't help that these changes also cost money in the short term, which has a strong tendency to blind those in charge.  Changes that bear significant fruit in the long-term but incur a short-term cost are often ignored, especially when stock holders are involved.

So here we are, here we've been for years, and here we'll probably stay.  Autodesk has no real incentive at this point to change anything.  Right now, all they have to do is expend just enough effort that their existing customer base doesn't migrate en masse to other software, which is very easy to do, since sane people don't want to deal with the hassles of evaluating and purchasing new software, then retraining staff, reworking processes, dealing with legacy projects that were done in the old software, etc.  And of course, most people are lazy.  I'm lazy myself, which is why I wrote the Sincpac-C3D.   :wink:

Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 11:09:42 PM »
None are more lazy than I sinc.  That was the foundation of my excitement and when I read the initial literature on Civil 3D.  I loathed having to continually re-annotate entire profiles for every minor change using land desktop and keeping multiple sets of annotation for the various scales used throughout my drawing sets.  NOTHING made me more furious than the inability to get certain pieces of annotation to display in the correct orientation in every viewport.  Civil 3D promised and end to all of that and I bought every word of it.  I knew there would be time before everything worked well, but we are now very close to the 5th anniversary of that first "pre release" and I am reduced to holding out hope that whatever replaces Civil 3D will finally come through on the promise.  It likely won't matter much to me personally as it looks like it will take even more luck than my experience to fire up any civil design packages professionally before I am sent permanently to pasture, but if John Glen was able to get back into space there is an outside chance this old geezer will get a chance to crawl out of the simulator and get back in "the chair" too.

I started this out with the idea that drafting and design functions needed to be separated for Civil 3D or its heir to fulfill the hype and deserve the role of a flagship application.  My hope is that they would be forced to bring MAP functionality for the Civil 3D objects in to access the data.  If the insane yearly release cycle is maintained, it may also be possible for the "drafting" team to keep up with core AutoCAD compatibility and interface issues while leaving the "design" programmers free to concentrate on making the damn thing finally work.

I know it is far too late for this to happen with Civil 3D but I suspect there is a new heir on some task list and perhaps even some code lurking in some obscure and very secure location.  My hope is that some lessons have been learned by decision makers and bean counters along with the design team.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2008, 12:58:41 AM »
Perhaps there is some hope here.  The long shot is that SCOUT takes a good hard look at some of this stuff and finds a way to present this disaffection to the design team.  That is unless she has merely been relegated to marketing this drek to more unsuspecting victims.  Perhaps some of the other lurkers that peek in from time to time might do the same.

The biggest shame is that none of us are free to express any of these ideas openly at the autodesk news groups or even their shilling proxy over at augi without having said post deleted, or being banned outright for not parroting the company drivel.

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scout

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 04:33:40 PM »
And as you might have guessed they will not allow me to 'beta' test it.

So if any of you are involved in beta testing please let me help you......although I sincerely doubt they really care or attempt to fix any of the reported issues at that phase any way.


Have you applied to myfeedback? If you haven't already, make sure you do. Beta usually rolls around Christmas. If you don't get notified that you've been added, hit me with the email address you used to apply and I will make sure you do.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 04:38:39 PM »
are you saying that for sure I can or will be allowed to beta test?

or is this just a tease to give one false hope for change?

and or will all of my input be completely ignored, just to give me one more reason to detest autodesk?
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Michael Farrell
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mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2008, 06:04:41 PM »
Actually, why not loose the pretense all together and get me in touch with the right folks at product development.  My commentary is not solely my own on this.  These would be the accumulated comments from training over a couple hundred users with C3D this year already.  I think that is a fair good sampling of what should or could be changed to improve the product, to a point that no one could resist using it.
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Michael Farrell
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scout

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 09:29:15 AM »
are you saying that for sure I can or will be allowed to beta test?

or is this just a tease to give one false hope for change?

and or will all of my input be completely ignored, just to give me one more reason to detest autodesk?

I dug into it- unless you've used a different name and email address, you've never applied to the beta projects on myfeedback, so it isn't that Autodesk doesn't let you beta test- you've never asked.

I've talked to the person in charge of the civil beta and he said that he'd be sure you were approved if you applied this year.

Now... beta is really a bug finding exercise and not really a wishlist/improvements forum. It gives you a chance to see the product before its released, it gives you a chance to make sure it works as designed and it could help you develop a relationship with the product team.

So- will your input be ignored? It depends on the input. If its relevant to beta, it won't be ignored.

As far as getting you in touch with the product team- if you look on the community site you can find two members there with a blog. Autodesk email addresses all follow the same format. Several others particpate in the Autodesk Discussion Groups. The only posts that are moderated on the Autodesk Discussion groups are those that use foul language or make personal attack on other users, or are really considered to be extremely bad form. There are plenty of dissenters, negative posts and rants- they certainly let you give feedback there.

Keep in mind that the product team gets their direction and priorities from the business arms at Autodesk. If you want real change, you'll have to appeal to them. And they speak the language of revenue.

sinc

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2008, 10:07:36 AM »
Keep in mind that the product team gets their direction and priorities from the business arms at Autodesk. If you want real change, you'll have to appeal to them. And they speak the language of revenue.

So in other words, don't hope for change?   :|

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2008, 10:30:00 AM »
Now... beta is really a bug finding exercise and not really a wishlist/improvements forum. It gives you a chance to see the product before its released, it gives you a chance to make sure it works as designed and it could help you develop a relationship with the product team.

If the point of beta testing is a bug finding exercise; then why are there so many in the product?
And why is it released with them in there anyway? 
Take for example the bug of plan production tools NEEDING the user to create empty data bands to push the profile view up into the provile viewport correctly? And the fact the still two years after their introduction, the problem still remains?
Or the fact that inside curves in corridor generated surface STILL contain what outdesk refers to DEGENERATE data unless one manually applies boundaries to same (for 5 years now)
Is it that it is cheaper to publish a technical document describing the defect and some hacked 'workaround' than to actually fix the problems?


scout; have you ever heard this phrase before, 'history is written by the victors'?
it's pretty easy for those that control said records to claim I never submitted to participate in said program.....
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 10:48:00 AM by mjfarrell »
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Michael Farrell
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Mark

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2008, 10:32:37 AM »
Just read this story this morning and it sort of relates.

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=122415838624916&w=2

Quote
n Monday 13 October 2008, Artur Grabowski wrote:
>> 2008/10/10 Theo de Raadt <@cvs.openbsd.org>:
>> Wow.  Good luck.  Can't you see we've been down that road before
>> with those <language removed>?  But really.  Good luck.  You really are too
>> optimistic, but sure, learn the reality for yourself.

Yep. If you need an example, search the archives for "HiFn" and the
following story will unfold...

HiFn makes crypto accelerators. Some folks working on OpenBSD wanted to
support these chips, but the could not get documentation from the
company. The company said they'd release documentation a few times to a
few different people, but nothing happened. Theo called them "liars"
(or similarly direct names) and there were a few big threads about
about the missing HiFn docs here on misc, twice they were slashdotted.

Since HiFn is basically in my back yard, I walked into their office one
day, talked to a few people, and set up a meeting with their CEO and
CTO. Both of them were good guys, and willing to help. The said they
would get the problem of the missing docs cleared up. I stayed in
contact with them for a few months but nothing happened, and the docs
were *STILL* missing...

Eight months (or more) later, my phone rings, and on the other end of
the line was the VP of Sales and Marketing from HiFn. You see, it was
the Sales and Marketing department of HiFn that had forbid the release
of needed documentation. Since sales and marketing are the bread and
butter of every company, they obviously have a ton of power to make
sure things done their way. The reason why they internally stopped all
efforts to release documentation is because they used the gathered
registration info for sales leads and marketing input.

So why the heck did the VP call me? --The answer is *VERY* *SIMPLE*

Theo and plenty of others around here created yet another long and
brutally direct thread about the missing HiFn documentation. The thread
once again made it onto slashdot and elsewhere, and someone informed
the HiFn Sales/Marketing folks about the on-going Public Relations
disaster for the company created by all the good from OpenBSD land.

The VP asked me to inform the OpenBSD camp that a FTP server with all
needed docs would be opened in a matter of hours, and this time they
actually kept their promise and release their docs.

Me being nice, taking the time to physically meet with the top guys at
HiFn and very politely discuss the missing documentation changed
absolutely nothing. The thing that *REALLY* caused the release of the
docs was Theo and others around here being brutally direct, extremely
honest, and not pulling any punches.

The less than funny part is, Theo told me at the start that I would be
wasting my time trying to meet and talk with them. Being overly
optimistic, I gave it a try anyhow, only to prove Theo was right all
along.

Theo: 1
JCR:  0

Being nice just means it's easier for them to ignore you.

If you want docs, be loud, be honest, be direct, be persistent, become a
huge Public Relations nightmare, and never pull any punches.

TheSwamp.org  (serving the CAD community since 2003)

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2008, 10:39:13 AM »
Just read this story this morning and it sort of relates.

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=122415838624916&w=2

Quote
n Monday 13 October 2008, Artur Grabowski wrote:
>> 2008/10/10 Theo de Raadt <@cvs.openbsd.org>:
>> Wow.  Good luck.  Can't you see we've been down that road before
>> with those <language removed>?  But really.  Good luck.  You really are too
>> optimistic, but sure, learn the reality for yourself.

Yep. If you need an example, search the archives for "HiFn" and the
following story will unfold...

HiFn makes crypto accelerators. Some folks working on OpenBSD wanted to
support these chips, but the could not get documentation from the
company. The company said they'd release documentation a few times to a
few different people, but nothing happened. Theo called them "liars"
(or similarly direct names) and there were a few big threads about
about the missing HiFn docs here on misc, twice they were slashdotted.

Since HiFn is basically in my back yard, I walked into their office one
day, talked to a few people, and set up a meeting with their CEO and
CTO. Both of them were good guys, and willing to help. The said they
would get the problem of the missing docs cleared up. I stayed in
contact with them for a few months but nothing happened, and the docs
were *STILL* missing...

Eight months (or more) later, my phone rings, and on the other end of
the line was the VP of Sales and Marketing from HiFn. You see, it was
the Sales and Marketing department of HiFn that had forbid the release
of needed documentation. Since sales and marketing are the bread and
butter of every company, they obviously have a ton of power to make
sure things done their way. The reason why they internally stopped all
efforts to release documentation is because they used the gathered
registration info for sales leads and marketing input.

So why the heck did the VP call me? --The answer is *VERY* *SIMPLE*

Theo and plenty of others around here created yet another long and
brutally direct thread about the missing HiFn documentation. The thread
once again made it onto slashdot and elsewhere, and someone informed
the HiFn Sales/Marketing folks about the on-going Public Relations
disaster for the company created by all the good from OpenBSD land.

The VP asked me to inform the OpenBSD camp that a FTP server with all
needed docs would be opened in a matter of hours, and this time they
actually kept their promise and release their docs.

Me being nice, taking the time to physically meet with the top guys at
HiFn and very politely discuss the missing documentation changed
absolutely nothing. The thing that *REALLY* caused the release of the
docs was Theo and others around here being brutally direct, extremely
honest, and not pulling any punches.

The less than funny part is, Theo told me at the start that I would be
wasting my time trying to meet and talk with them. Being overly
optimistic, I gave it a try anyhow, only to prove Theo was right all
along.

Theo: 1
JCR:  0

Being nice just means it's easier for them to ignore you.

If you want docs, be loud, be honest, be direct, be persistent, become a
huge Public Relations nightmare, and never pull any punches.



Good story Mark, and exactly one of the root causes of my being banned from augi, and them subsequently REWRITING the rules to participate over there. To prevent any such OPEN or HONEST discussion of the company, or the products they make in any meaningful way.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

scout

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 04:08:20 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree. All I can tell you is that you can be as loud as you want over here in the swamp, but the people you are trying to get to won't see it unless you take it to the autodesk newsgroups. I can't promise you they won't moderate you, I can't promise you they will do what you want, but it would definitely stand a greater chance of being heard there by the product team.

But I have said this before. I also have not uncovered any evidence of an anti-mjf conspiracy. But of course, they could still be covering it up :)

Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 10:47:16 PM »
First of all Scout, I want to thank you and tell you I think it is awesome that you still drop into TheSwamp on occasion to lend some help and words of wisdom.  Now I am going to have to disagree with you and pick on the newsgroups. 
I know from my experience here that the moderator has a very tight line to walk sometimes and over all I think Autodesk does a pretty fair job of moderating those groups.  I have been quite surprised that certain threads have been allowed to stay intact.  They have though, taken full advantage of the huge volume of posts they get daily to passively moderate the topics they can't or don't want to discuss.  Back long before that disastrous new forum format change I posted a number of very specific problems which received perhaps 3 responses in total from users experiencing the same or similar problem.  I didn't throw them any hardballs or even softballs - more like Nerff Balls.  I was polite and absolutely adorable at all times, but not one word - zip, nothing from anyone identifiable as Autodeskers to even acknowledge that I had a problem.  Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.  I would suggest you do a search for my user name to verify this story, but I wouldn't wish their new search engine for such a task on anyone.  I had pretty much stopped visiting there before they changed the format and now I have lost almost all interest in returning.  I gave up on the Civil Community site months ago due to lack of new content and very little that was NOT new.

scout

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2008, 11:20:38 PM »
Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.

I do remember recently that a few threads disappeared. I don't recall the specifics, and I am sure it wasn't you, but there were some troublemakers making personal attacks and generally being bad sports. I don't read every thread, but as you mentioned, I have seen plenty of rants, defect reports and general product unhappiness remain intact. Some of mine from days of yore are still alive. If a particular thread ever catches your eye as potentially being one that would get axed- hit me with the URL so that I can pay attention and find out what might be happening under the hood.

As far as the Community Site goes- I agree. It's actually something that I've become involved with. It will take another month or two, but good things are happening. It will house the new incarnation of Civil 3D Rocks amoungst other things.

You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons. Many of us can't provide answers about why something is broken or works a certain way, and if we respond it makes it seem like we can. A few developers and QA people will pipe in when they have a good answer or would like to test a drawing further to track things down. Also, sometimes we know the answers but our confidentiality rules prevent us from telling, so any involvement would just make things worse.

This all sounds like a total pack of spin speak I am sure, but the fact is that Autodesk is a big company that makes products that are used worldwide. If you are expecting a nimble company with developers that are accessible to you and immediately responsive to your feedback, maybe Autodesk products aren't the answer. I really like working here and I believe in what I am doing, and I believe that every day my work helps move the art of civil engineering design forward.

I stand by what I said here: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=23136.msg278927#msg278927 about how best to get involved in moving Civil 3D forward.

While I can't always tell you everything, and I am not going to call out any of my coworkers, I will tell you what I can and take your feedback to the right people when its warranted.


scout

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2008, 11:31:36 PM »
You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons.

However- that doesn't mean that plenty of 'deskers aren't reading the DG and using the issues exposed their to fuel their work in support, QA and development.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2008, 12:22:31 AM »
Scout, despite my 5 months of exile from Civil 3D and little hope for repatriation any time soon and also regardless of my recent rants regarding its shortcomings as a viable solution for at least my purposes when I used it, I care deeply about the product.  I lobbied HARD in its favor since almost my first post here in TheSwamp in 2004.  It still remains, in my opinion, the best product available to perform the job I needed it to do.
Now, I find myself in a position where I have no access to Autodesk as an unhappy or even potential customer.  I have one computer left to install trial versions on to keep from losing contact completely with the focus of the last 4 years of my professional life and to paraphrase a quote from John Postlewaite, the baby is still very ugly indeed.  I would be very interested in trying to be a positive force in taking Civil 3D the last ten or twenty percent of the way to real maturity but is there a channel of entry available for such a non customer with absolutely zero potential as a sales prospect?

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2008, 12:16:45 PM »
Within a few days my question along with several other topics I was watching were hopelessly buried.

I do remember recently that a few threads disappeared. I don't recall the specifics, and I am sure it wasn't you, but there were some troublemakers making personal attacks and generally being bad sports. I don't read every thread, but as you mentioned, I have seen plenty of rants, defect reports and general product unhappiness remain intact. Some of mine from days of yore are still alive. If a particular thread ever catches your eye as potentially being one that would get axed- hit me with the URL so that I can pay attention and find out what might be happening under the hood.

As far as the Community Site goes- I agree. It's actually something that I've become involved with. It will take another month or two, but good things are happening. It will house the new incarnation of Civil 3D Rocks amoungst other things.

You won't find much response from 'deskers on the DG for a few reasons. Many of us can't provide answers about why something is broken or works a certain way, and if we respond it makes it seem like we can. A few developers and QA people will pipe in when they have a good answer or would like to test a drawing further to track things down. Also, sometimes we know the answers but our confidentiality rules prevent us from telling, so any involvement would just make things worse.

This all sounds like a total pack of spin speak I am sure, but the fact is that Autodesk is a big company that makes products that are used worldwide. If you are expecting a nimble company with developers that are accessible to you and immediately responsive to your feedback, maybe Autodesk products aren't the answer. I really like working here and I believe in what I am doing, and I believe that every day my work helps move the art of civil engineering design forward.

I stand by what I said here: http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=23136.msg278927#msg278927 about how best to get involved in moving Civil 3D forward.

While I can't always tell you everything, and I am not going to call out any of my coworkers, I will tell you what I can and take your feedback to the right people when its warranted.



A lot of what you say here, sounds a little like this:

Even thought an autodesk employee may read the discussion groups, they most likely can not or will not participate, because autodesk wont let them be honset, so there really is nor reason for them participate there, or for a user to expact any real answers from them by posting there.

Sounds like an excellent reason for them to get and keep an anonymous log in here at the swamp so that they can participate in a more un censored environment to the betterment of the products they work on.

Also sounds like, the exact reason I find it futile to participate there, because of the 'apparent' lack of involvement because they can not participate freely there, and most likely will not answer a question even if they have the answer, i.e. That feature, or function is broken, we know about it, however we can't or wont fix it due to the business model of our employer. 

However thanks for clarifying what I suspected!
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

scout

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2008, 11:48:51 PM »
Also sounds like, the exact reason I find it futile to participate there, because of the 'apparent' lack of involvement because they can not participate freely there, and most likely will not answer a question even if they have the answer, i.e. That feature, or function is broken, we know about it, however we can't or wont fix it due to the business model of our employer. 

I think you interpreted my post more or less correctly. The only thing I'd say is that while you may not get a response, you are about 10,000X more likely to have your request actually seen by someone who can make a difference on the autodesk DG. One of the guys pinged me today asking for some clarification of something he saw on the wishlist group. We talked about it for a few minutes and came up with some ideas.

Another example of particpation can be found here: http://discussion.autodesk.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=6056492&#6056492

There are a few heavy users of the discussion groups that have recently become autodesk employees. This may also encourage more participation. We shall see.

As far as the Swamp goes, I don't think you'll find many deskers coming in under the cover of complete darkness. I know two deskers who read the swamp somewhat occasionally- including myself. If you want support and kinship- the swamp is great. But if you want to have your issues read by anyone who can really take it into consideration, its not.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2008, 12:14:20 AM »
The thing is scout, it does not mean a whole lot that someone from Autodesk actually read about a problem I am having if they can neither be bothered to acknowledge that it was seen or even something that they were or would be addressing (or if it was "as designed - live with it) nor make any progress toward a solution over two release cycles.  With such a non-response, my efforts carry about the same weight as a mosquito phart during a hurricane.  Additionally, by posting here I can usually find some kind of ready answer if not a solution and need not worry about being admonished by multiple regulars for unintentionally breaking some mystic protocol as many infrequent visitors to the newsgroups have endured.

ChristopherF

  • Newt
  • Posts: 55
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 11:51:45 PM »
If you have an .edu email address you can always download the student version from the http://students.autodesk.com/ site.

...is there a channel of entry available for such a non customer with absolutely zero potential as a sales prospect?

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 08:53:17 PM »
If you have an .edu email address you can always download the student version from the http://students.autodesk.com/ site.
Could have done exactly that a couple years back, but my alumni email account got converted from dot edu to dot org and set up with gmail . . . perhaps too many graduated students were taking advantage of that ability.
Welcome to TheSwamp . . . I am pleased we were able to get that sign up problem resolved for you.