Author Topic: Dynamic Blocks in Labels  (Read 7373 times)

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mjfarrell

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Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« on: October 14, 2008, 11:37:24 AM »
Why in the world would autodesk decide that users can NOT use dynamic blocks within C3D Labels?

I have ran several tests, and one must explode the stupid label a minimum of 3 times in order to reveal the dynamic block within the label in order to use any of the dynamic block functionality.  Please run a few test and confirm that yet again I have NOT lost touch with reality.

If a user could include some dynamic block functionality within a label style some really good stuff could be done with them.  And I can see no real reason why the block functionality is completely hidden within the label style. 
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 12:06:41 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . . if dynamic blocks behaved in normal AutoCAD manner, then I would also expect most other AtuoCAD commands and procedures to work normally as well.  If memory serves me correctly, virtually zero commands work as expected on Civil 3D labels and one must dig deeply into the label composer to manipulate them in even simple ways.
I have about concluded that Civil 3D just tries to do too much and should be split between a design program with basic labeling ability for reference (just about where it is now) and a plan production package with highly developed drafting ability.  They are close with their new lineup except they erred in how they carved it up.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 12:11:01 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

I could not find the DISGUST icon...

This isn't suprise it is absolute disgust.  And to be clear in it's current state (still using 'intelligent' labels) labeling through to an XREF of the data, still does not overcome the limitations of the label style functionality. 
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Michael Farrell
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Mark

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »
Please run a few test and confirm that yet again I have NOT lost touch with reality.

Ran one test on a point style and no I cannot use the blocks functionality.

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sinc

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 02:20:02 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

Really.  Next thing you know, Micheal's going to be shocked that Fields can't be used inside of Civil-3D Labels.   :lmao:

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 02:36:19 PM »
I am shocked at your level of surprise . . .

Really.  Next thing you know, Micheal's going to be shocked that Fields can't be used inside of Civil-3D Labels.   :lmao:

No, I already knew one couldn't use fields in C3D labels.   :roll:


It's just disgusting really.  Why does no one test this stuff more thouroughly? 

And as you might have guessed they will not allow me to 'beta' test it.

So if any of you are involved in beta testing please let me help you......although I sincerely doubt they really care or attempt to fix any of the reported issues at that phase any way.
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 07:42:03 PM »
I could not find the DISGUST icon...

This isn't suprise it is absolute disgust.  And to be clear in it's current state (still using 'intelligent' labels) labeling through to an XREF of the data, still does not overcome the limitations of the label style functionality. 
Is that it then . . . no comment or challenge on my assertion that the design and drafting functions within Civil 3D each have demands that the other can not accommodate or actively interfere with and must be split for the good of the product and mental health of those who use it?
I don't know how many hours I spent off the clock at home trying to develop styles and label sets that would create the annotation expected by our clients, needed by our field crews and demanded by the reviewing agencies.  I never even got a start with parcels and their segments, but I finally got at least the basics set up for general segments and alignments.  My conclusion after creating my "final" plat was that even my general label set was really too much trouble to be worth using except for very uncomplicated project.  Profiles for street and sanitary sewers worked pretty well but both still had major problems where they connected to existing infrastructure.  Storm sewers continued to be a complete disaster because the same problems connecting to existing structures and mixed in the inability of the program to generate reliable numbers for wall to wall design with rectangular structures.  I found the plan production tools far more trouble to mess with than any benefit the provided me.  I had a grand total of ONE project that had a profile more than 2 sheets in length ( a 6 sheet sanitary main in 2007 that predated the tools) while virtually every project had at least half the profile sheets with 2, 3 or even 4 different profiles crammed onto each.  I had to roll my own solution with the same general procedures I used with LDT or EaglePoint.  The end result was that even using every bit of Civil 3D that would yield the desired finished product, I would have to create 20% to 40% of the work using vanilla AutoCAD procedures.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 08:32:45 PM »
My contention is that many who use C3D do not fully utilize all of the tools.
For a myriad of reason, most stemming from incomplete understanding of the tools (training issues), and the poor design of many of the tools.
This leads to a vast combination of hybrid methods partially using generic autocad functions, and lisp to deal with the poor product design, and lack of user training.
The current design of the software is a direct result of far too many firms not understanding that C3D is a design and drafting tool and they insist on attempting to design by redline; instead of teaching the engineers and designers to use the tool (C3D) as it is intended to be used.  Thus they have added the ability to label through XREFS, etc.  There is a great deal that can be done with the product as it exists, however autodesk has a long way to go to include, or improve the functionality such that the more users will adopt it and use it as the design, and drafting tool it is intended to be.

However until such time that autodesk admits that the program is flawed, and allows for greater user input to direct the product development, I do not see this happening anytime soon. 

As it stands most adopt a very bastardized methodology to overcome the above issues I see very few firms being able to employ C3D in its pure form to accomplish their production efforts.

Anyone working with or for autodesk; I again offer to discuss these issues at length at no charge should you really desire to improve the product.  Come on what do you have to loose except the price of a plane ticket and a hotel room, and perhaps a few bruised egos to make this product truly great?  I'm certain you spend more on marketing it in one month than this would cost you.
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Michael Farrell
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Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 10:36:41 PM »
My contention is that many who use C3D do not fully utilize all of the tools.
For a myriad of reason, most stemming from incomplete understanding of the tools (training issues), and the poor design of many of the tools.
This leads to a vast combination of hybrid methods partially using generic autocad functions, and lisp to deal with the poor product design, and lack of user training.
True enough although there are still certain things that can not be accomplished with Civil 3D regardless the amount of training or commitment.  My problems with parcels and plan production could have been overcome with more training and commitment but time and energy ran out on the whole experiment.  Storm sewers were and remain a hopeless mission that has yet to be addressed by Autodesk rendering a full third of my responsibilities impossible to complete without said hybrid measures and another quarter only at the very start of the learning curve.
The current design of the software is a direct result of far too many firms not understanding that C3D is a design and drafting tool and they insist on attempting to design by redline; instead of teaching the engineers and designers to use the tool (C3D) as it is intended to be used.
We actually did pretty well at this . . . at least through the first round of comments.
However until such time that autodesk admits that the program is flawed, and allows for greater user input to direct the product development, I do not see this happening anytime soon. 
I don't see this happening as long as they have the official beta testing crammed full of every day users who wouldn't say "the well known substance" (even with a mouth full of it) about the release candidate's shortcomings for fear of not being invited back for a return gig the next year.
As it stands most adopt a very bastardized methodology to overcome the above issues I see very few firms being able to employ C3D in its pure form to accomplish their production efforts.
And those few can do this only because they enjoy a situation where plan reviewers are not imposing a standard that is not economically feasible if even possible to meet with the program in its current state.  It is close - perhaps even 80% or 90% there but the things nearest completing the journey have stalled with the latest releases which indicates to me Autodesk thinks they are "good enough" - something I have always thought "never is."

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 02:39:40 AM »
DinØ,

I couldn't agree more with some of your points DinØ.  I think where you folks hit the wall is similar to some of my clients.  Not everyone comes to class to see the real power of what C3D can do.  In the end they miss the shift in process that C3D affords.  The real benefit is that should one accept that it is a design tool, and get out of the revision cycle (redline) mindset C3D offers huge time, cost and profit advantages.

All of the above despite the fact that it does require an investment in acquiring the skills to use it. That and the patience of a rock to deal with some of the inherit flaws in the product design.  Example, just this AM I was adjusting a code set label style and thought that I had lost my mind.  Each time I attempted to edit the label style I was presented with ONLY the FORMAT tab of the label style composer.  Finally in a pique of frustration, I recalled the OLD days of autocad and simply shut down the application, reopened the file, and viola, the PROPERTIES tab presented itself so that I could alter the label code.  Absolutely not the type of behavior one would desire in a software package costing over $6000.00 to own.  There are freeware products out there that work far better, and yet autodesk denies such problems exists.

The beta (usability) testing is flawed.  And the  snoop-ware based Customer Involvement system worse yet, when one looks at the data and sees that 86% of the time a user is deleting an object(?) surely someone somewhere must certainly be drawing the objects that are being deleted. 
I have noting to lose and autodesk has everything to gain by listening to the voice of one of the products most passionate users about what to change, fix, or add to make the product better.
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 10:07:10 AM »
I don't see this happening as long as they have the official beta testing crammed full of every day users who wouldn't say "the well known substance" (even with a mouth full of it) about the release candidate's shortcomings for fear of not being invited back for a return gig the next year.

The flaws are far deeper and more wide-spread than that.

From what I can tell, the beta testing period is a brief timeframe during which they are simply trying to identify new quirks introduced by recent code changes, and get some of those fixed before everything goes to production.  Even if they get feedback at that point that an entire new feature was designed incorrectly from the ground up, it's too late at that point for them to do anything about it, and they aren't interested in that sort of feedback, even though it's really the most important thing they could hear.  It simply doesn't do them any good in the beta test phase; it's already too late.  And once something wrong has been introduced to the product (e.g., Siteless Alignments, the horrid design of Parcels, the horrid design of Labels, etc.), it tends to stay in next year's version too, even if they get feedback in the beta period that they should have done something else.

But this is only one of many, many, many ways Autodesk's software processes seem to be flawed.  It's difficult to say what's happening inside of Autodesk, but some things shine through.  Just from what we can see, Autodesk's software processes are seriously flawed, starting with the way marketing drives development, and going from there.  And it's not really like they can do something simple, like simply stop the yearly release cycle.  The yearly release cycle in itself is not the reason we see so many bugs, the bugs are the result of other aspects of the overall development process, which includes everything from the definition of new requirements to the QA/QC.  So many things are wrong that they can't simply make a few tweaks here and there and fix it - they need systemic change, and that's something that is very difficult to accomplish in a multi-national corporation like Autodesk.  It doesn't help that these changes also cost money in the short term, which has a strong tendency to blind those in charge.  Changes that bear significant fruit in the long-term but incur a short-term cost are often ignored, especially when stock holders are involved.

So here we are, here we've been for years, and here we'll probably stay.  Autodesk has no real incentive at this point to change anything.  Right now, all they have to do is expend just enough effort that their existing customer base doesn't migrate en masse to other software, which is very easy to do, since sane people don't want to deal with the hassles of evaluating and purchasing new software, then retraining staff, reworking processes, dealing with legacy projects that were done in the old software, etc.  And of course, most people are lazy.  I'm lazy myself, which is why I wrote the Sincpac-C3D.   :wink:

Dinosaur

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 11:09:42 PM »
None are more lazy than I sinc.  That was the foundation of my excitement and when I read the initial literature on Civil 3D.  I loathed having to continually re-annotate entire profiles for every minor change using land desktop and keeping multiple sets of annotation for the various scales used throughout my drawing sets.  NOTHING made me more furious than the inability to get certain pieces of annotation to display in the correct orientation in every viewport.  Civil 3D promised and end to all of that and I bought every word of it.  I knew there would be time before everything worked well, but we are now very close to the 5th anniversary of that first "pre release" and I am reduced to holding out hope that whatever replaces Civil 3D will finally come through on the promise.  It likely won't matter much to me personally as it looks like it will take even more luck than my experience to fire up any civil design packages professionally before I am sent permanently to pasture, but if John Glen was able to get back into space there is an outside chance this old geezer will get a chance to crawl out of the simulator and get back in "the chair" too.

I started this out with the idea that drafting and design functions needed to be separated for Civil 3D or its heir to fulfill the hype and deserve the role of a flagship application.  My hope is that they would be forced to bring MAP functionality for the Civil 3D objects in to access the data.  If the insane yearly release cycle is maintained, it may also be possible for the "drafting" team to keep up with core AutoCAD compatibility and interface issues while leaving the "design" programmers free to concentrate on making the damn thing finally work.

I know it is far too late for this to happen with Civil 3D but I suspect there is a new heir on some task list and perhaps even some code lurking in some obscure and very secure location.  My hope is that some lessons have been learned by decision makers and bean counters along with the design team.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2008, 12:58:41 AM »
Perhaps there is some hope here.  The long shot is that SCOUT takes a good hard look at some of this stuff and finds a way to present this disaffection to the design team.  That is unless she has merely been relegated to marketing this drek to more unsuspecting victims.  Perhaps some of the other lurkers that peek in from time to time might do the same.

The biggest shame is that none of us are free to express any of these ideas openly at the autodesk news groups or even their shilling proxy over at augi without having said post deleted, or being banned outright for not parroting the company drivel.

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 04:33:40 PM »
And as you might have guessed they will not allow me to 'beta' test it.

So if any of you are involved in beta testing please let me help you......although I sincerely doubt they really care or attempt to fix any of the reported issues at that phase any way.


Have you applied to myfeedback? If you haven't already, make sure you do. Beta usually rolls around Christmas. If you don't get notified that you've been added, hit me with the email address you used to apply and I will make sure you do.

mjfarrell

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Re: Dynamic Blocks in Labels
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 04:38:39 PM »
are you saying that for sure I can or will be allowed to beta test?

or is this just a tease to give one false hope for change?

and or will all of my input be completely ignored, just to give me one more reason to detest autodesk?
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Michael Farrell
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