Topic: Autodesk and Surveyors

[Dinosaur]

In our case Michael, the only link either in or out of the office between Civil 3D and our surveyors is a simple PNEZD asci file with points.  There is zero interest or even perceived need of any further interaction.  We are in fact looking at alternate solutions for handling of points all together.  Sadly, they again can make a good case that points handling to the extent we use it has become more cumbersome since the 2007 format and a different solution may well indeed serve us better.

[sinc]

I might be able to change their minds if I showed them a demo of some of the things I do with Civil-3D + the Sincpac-C3D...   

Even though Autodesk's support for Surveyors has been disappointing, the product itself is capable of quite a lot, and it also has a lot of that functionality exposed in the API.  That makes it rather flexible.

It's just unfortunate that everything from the stock subassemblies to the reports to the Survey Database illustrate a fundamental lack of understanding of the common tasks Surveyors need to perform.  And then there is the learning curve, and the time lost to styles, and the price of the software...  One might start to wonder if using Civil-3D for surveying is like using helicopter to go to the grocery store.

[Craig Davis]

And then there is the learning curve, and the time lost to styles, and the price of the software...  One might start to wonder if using Civil-3D for surveying is like using helicopter to go to the grocery store.

So true. The surveyor from my old job was more or less persuaded over to Civil3D reluctantly from CivilCAD and now is quite happy with what he can do with Civil3D. I would hate to know how much extra time he's put into it to get it to where he is happy with it, but very surprised at how he does like it now.

[sinc]

My guys are the same way.

There was quite a bit of resistance to Civil-3D at first, as people fought the learning curve.  For a while, one of my guys in particular was still using Land Desktop for most things.  But I new the tide had finally changed when he was working on some construction calcs in Land Desktop with one of our other employees, and he said "This would be a lot easier in Civil-3D..."   

Civil-3D is definitely powerful.  And now that we've gone through all the effort to learn it, we can do a lot with it.  But is it the best choice for Surveyors?  And more to the point, what will happen in the future?  Will Autodesk continue to largely ignore the needs of Surveyors, and do things like say "The Transformation Tab isn't that bad - we can leave it the way it is"?  Or will they actually start fixing/improving things?  Or is it like JP says, and Surveyors aren't a big enough income stream for them to worry about?

[MSTG007]

I have a stupid Question. And this is just a thought... Civil 3D... "3D" Would you ever think a reason Autodesk placed the Surveying tools in Civil 3D is to build a model in 3D with all the 3D parts. For instance, our firm tried this and it worked, But we did a topographic survey on a site and the contours were in 3D and the Landscape Trees, buildings, structures and pipes, to generate a table etc. (Similar to the way engineering is done.) That was fun and pretty cool and it was quick.

As technology keeps changing, I am sure we all know the next big thing is 3D Scanning. How is ACAD going to help with this? Its Far More Advanaced then what I just mentioned above.

As for when I am importing a FBK. I have to say, I do not use the Survey Database. I import all the points and lines and then unlock them. And all the Feature Lines. I Explode to a POlyLine so I can move it and edit it. I know its not the right thing to do. But it works for us. ok you know my secrete.

[mjfarrell]

  Or is it like JP says, and Surveyors aren't a big enough income stream for them to worry about?

Uh, they would appear to a big enough revenue stream for autodesk to hype and shill the product to them. So if Surveyors are important enough to misrepresent the products capabilities too, then they should be large enough to fix the defects and omissions for; or at least stop prevaricating to them about the products abilities.

[mjfarrell]

So MSTG007, essentially your contribution to this discussion is that C3D works for us because we do not actually use C3D without exploding the C3D objects and using brute force cad to accomplish what C3D wont let us do easily or otherwise. Or did I read too much into the last sentence?

If my perception is correct; that's a hell of an endorsement for the product.  C3D it GREAT! If only you don't really try to use it as designed.

[MSTG007]

lol MJ you are right. I am Speechless. good Summary.

[mjfarrell]

 <<looking for my Sarcasmometer>>

...now where did I put that thing???

[therock003]

May i ask,how do you guys work?Do you use a fieldbook/data collector for the job?I'm 3-4 months away of getting my degree here on Greece,and the equipment we've used is theodolites (analog equipment got to write measurements down) and total station,where it stores distances,angles,coords on internal memoery and you transfer data via cable to the pc.We havent used so far any fieldbook though and i wonder whats the purpose for one?

[Craig Davis]

When they mention FBK or field book they're referring to a file type not a physical field book (Just in case you were getting confused).

We use a data collector (quite old now and in the process of researching new ones) and download to the PC. We download to CivilCAD as it has all the survey tools we need and it's easier to use.

I will start another thread to discuss survey processes. I've been meaning to ask how other people do it and get Civil3D to string up for them.

[sinc]

I have now posted a new version of the Sincpac-C3D that adds some significant enhancements geared toward Surveyors.

The main improvements are the new DISPLAYPOINTS and DISPLAYPROFILE commands.  With these commands, I'm exploring some alternatives to reports, because I'm really not happy with the way they work.  In many respects, these two commands are "dynamic, interactive reports, that can still dump the data out to a CSV file, with no need for extracting the data from a formatted web page".  In other words, I think they are more-useful for Surveyors than the reports Autodesk gave us.

There's also a command for adding Station/Offset to point descriptions (so the Station/Offset appears in exported PNEZD files, unlike Station/Offset Labels), a command for pruning PVIs from existing profiles, a command for converting an EG profile into an FG profile, and a command for cleaning up duplicate vertices in polylines (all kinds).

That's just the new commands in this release.  The Sincpac-C3D already contained a wealth of routines that help in the Surveyor's line of work, and some of the existing commands have also been improved in this version.

And this is still just the beginning.  The DISPLAYPOINTS and DISPLAYPROFILE commands offer only a glimpse of the functionality that I envision.

[blatant plug]
It's already to the point where I can't imagine any Surveyor trying to use Civil-3D without the Sincpac-C3D.  It just saves way too much time, and makes arduous tasks so much easier.  Eventually, my goal is to make Civil-3D+Sincpac-C3D the only sane choice for Surveyors.  I haven't concentrated on replacing the FBK process yet, since so many other third-party providers have already covered that one, but I think I'm addressing a lot of needs that no one else is.
[/blatant plug]

Crazy?  Maybe, since according to JP, the Surveyor market isn't big enough for Autodesk to care about.  But I'm a Surveyor, and I think this technology has more potential than any other solution out there, once the "holes" left by Autodesk start getting filled in (as best we can fill them with third-party technology, anyway).

[Craig Davis]

Whilst researching possible new processes we've come across the program from MicroSurvey - FieldGenius 2007.

Has anyone used this before for surveying and then bringing into Civil3D? (Did a search but could only find references to the design side of MicroSurvey)

Looks promising. Graphically stringing and DTM's in the field would be very handy. Would help in locating errors whilst on site etc.

Wondering how complete the survey would be by the time it's loaded into Civil3D.

We're still waiting for a quote for the data collector and software.

[Dinosaur]

I have heard very positive reviews for MicroSurvey, especially for FieldGenius.  You might try checking at civil3d dot com - they are now a vendor for MicroSurvey and Jason Hickey has spoken highly of it recently.

[mjfarrell]

I have heard very positive reviews for MicroSurvey, especially for FieldGenius.  You might try checking at civil3d dot com - they are now a vendor for MicroSurvey and Jason Hickey has spoken highly of it recently.

That is an interesting tidbit?  For some reason one would expect that those folks autodesk tattoed on their soul. And here I see that they now represent and sell a competing product to c3d. Wow, I think I may have to keep an eye on the sky and a large umbrella in case that flock of winged porcine happen overhead.