Topic: Daunting Task (Terramodel -> Civil3D Construction Staking)

[surveyor_randy]

Ok, where do I start....

I am in charge of converting our entire survey department from Terramodel to Civil3D.  I am looking for some pointers and suggestions from other surveyors who are using C3D for construction staking.  The design work is damn easy in C3D but it doesn't seem as friendly to us surveyors as LDD was.

C3D is points galore when working with pipes, alignments, etc, HOWEVER, they are not COGO points so they are useless to us for staking purposes.  Why the distinction?  Terramodel considers a point as a point!  Shouldn't every point that has an X,Y,Z be considered a COGO point.

Basically, I am asking, how do you offset lines and maintain their elevations?  I found another thread regarding a similar topic but it evolved into a VBA and lisp routine discussion.

Terramodel worked fine for what we were doing but the people upstairs (engineers) decided that we now need to be using C3D.  Help!! 

[surveyor_randy]

PS - it is p*ss poor design from Autodesk to allow points everywhere for engineers to do their design work but keep us surveyors from using them. 

[sinc]

Basically, I am asking, how do you offset lines and maintain their elevations?  I found another thread regarding a similar topic but it evolved into a VBA and lisp routine discussion.

Not quite sure I follow you here...  Maybe you are looking for Grading->Edit Feature Lines->Stepped Offset?  This works for Feature Lines, Survey Figures, and 3D-Polylines.  Just beware that Autodesk broke it in 2008 SP2, and the offset line loses all elevation points that are not also horizontal PIs.

Unfortunately, you will discover that C3D is not very surveyor-friendly.  Autodesk largely has no concept at all of what surveyors do or how they work.  Most of their efforts so far have been devoted to the Equipment Database (which is completely useless, since this issue is handled already by the data collectors), and the Survey Database (largely useless, because it doesn't understand GPS, among other issues).  They do not understand boundary work at all, or construction calcs, or field data collection, and C3D is woefully inadequate for all of these.  They don't even have a good grasp on State Plane vs. Ground coordinates, or US Survey Feet vs. International Feet, both of which are implemented improperly in C3D.  They've been getting a lot of feedback on these issues, among others, and we're hoping that the 2009 release will provide some relief, but right now, C3D is pretty limited in its survey support.

That being said, we would not even consider using Land Desktop at this point.  C3D is flawed, but still far better than that ancient program.  But the only thing that's made C3D usable for us at this point are the routines found in the SincpacC3D (a free download).

The STAKEFEATURES routine in that set of utilities creates offset points to feature lines.  Calc'ing 3' offsets to the TBC around parking lots with that routine is MUCH nicer than it was in Land Desktop.  Turn your TBC into a feature line, grade the feature line from the spot elevations in the plans, and then run STAKEFEATURES to calc all stakeout points all at once.

[surveyor_randy]

Unfortunately, you will discover that C3D is not very surveyor-friendly.  Autodesk largely has no concept at all of what surveyors do or how they work.  Most of their efforts so far have been devoted to the Equipment Database (which is completely useless, since this issue is handled already by the data collectors), and the Survey Database (largely useless, because it doesn't understand GPS, among other issues).

You obviously are a surveyor yourself!  I don't even bother with the 'Survey database' portion of C3D.  We just create a polyline boundary and adjust it.  All of the BS of entering data about your instrument is quite insignificant.  And the survey database is useless, other then being able to lock points.

I am interested in knowing how other surveyors are creating COGO points from completed designs.  How are you guys creating points for data collectors from sewer systems, water lines, storm drains, etc.  I really wish that Autodesk would realize that EVERY point that has an X,Y,Z is a POINT.  There should be no distinction between a COGO point and any other point.  How are we expected to implement the design?  My contractor is wanting the sewer system staked at 25' offsets and we have no problem doing this with Terramodel.  But with C3D, everything becomes a learning adventure for us.

[Dinosaur]

Yes, sinc has managed to assemble a very helpful set of tools for using Civil 3D for surveying related functions.  JeffM, another member here, has also shared some valuable tools. They are definitely worth your time to download all of them.
I am curious what version of Civil 3D you are working with; the 2008 version has changed some of the ways it deals with points and may solve some of your questions although the points functionality has been one of the more friendly parts of the program.  I am also unfamiliar with Terramodel and what you might need to get from Civil 3D to make it do what you need, but I have had no problems creating stakeout points for our surveyors.  Do you need to export points out of the drawing in a format not listed as a choice?

[surveyor_randy]

Thanks for the suggestion, we are using C3D 2008 SP2 and I have downloaded the SincPac but haven't really played with it yet.  In terramodel, to stake a sewer line for example, the procedure was quite easy.  We offset the sewerline 25' first.  Then set the out elevation at one end of the line and the in elevation at the other end.  Then, if we want points at 25' increments, we just trim the line by 25' and it creates a point at the proper elevation based on the slope from the start point to the end point.  We then repeat this process and it creates another point.  In terramodel, you can trim a line by typing a distance and clicking on the line multiple times (it's quite fast).  It intuitively knows that you want to trim from the closest endpoint.  Even though the portion of the line segment disappears after you've trimmed the line, the point still exists. 

I am working on a vba routine that will offset a line or polyline with a 3D-polyline, then set the Z values based on the Z values of the vertices of the 3D polyline.  If the original object that was offset was a line/polyline, then it will prompt the user for Z values.  It would also give the user the option to reverse the line.  Then finally, create COGO points from those vertice points.  It isn't too much of a task to create this routine but I am quite surprised that C3D 2008 wouldn't have a similar routine built into it.  Or at least, an easier way to offset a line with elevations at intervals for staking purposes.

We export coordinates into an ASCII file PNEZD (comma) to load into our data collectors.

[surveyor_randy]

Another routine I am considering writing:

It would sort of associate COGO points with an object.  Meaning, if I grabbed a line, polygon, etc and moved it or rotated it, it would make the proper adjustment to the associated COGO points along that particular object, meaning, points created along the line or perimeter of the polygon.  I know that this is possible with a selection set but it would be nice to just click anywhere along the object and have the object and the associated COGO points added to the selection set.  I think it would be pretty easy to write a routine that would run along the perimeter and grab any COGO points it encounters along the way.

[Dinosaur]

Thank you for the explanation.  I think that you should be able to create the points you require quite easily as long as you are making your offsets along an alignment or create an alignment along your offset line.  On the POINTS pulldown, you will find a flyout for Create Points - Alignment that will give you several methods of automatic point creation.
The way I deal with these points for export is to have a point style and a label style set up for staking points along with their own layer that is specified in the styles.  I make a point group set up for these points and populate it with only these points and also include my control point group that I have set up in a similar manner.  The point group may not populate as expected until you update the point group manually in Toolspace.  A point export to file of points within this group definition using your preferred format should return exactly what you need.
This is just a rough explanation assuming you know some of your way around Civil 3D and it's interface.  I will be happy to clarify anything you still need help with.

[mjfarrell]

Stephen and Sinc,  I have to say there are times that you guys really make a teacher proud, and humble at the same time.   Keep the good work!

[sinc]

Another routine I am considering writing:

It would sort of associate COGO points with an object.  Meaning, if I grabbed a line, polygon, etc and moved it or rotated it, it would make the proper adjustment to the associated COGO points along that particular object, meaning, points created along the line or perimeter of the polygon.  I know that this is possible with a selection set but it would be nice to just click anywhere along the object and have the object and the associated COGO points added to the selection set.  I think it would be pretty easy to write a routine that would run along the perimeter and grab any COGO points it encounters along the way.

I don't think it's that simple.  If it just "grabbed" any point it found, it might grab the wrong points.

I've been thinking of trying to extend the STAKEFEATURES command so that the points all auto-update if the featureline is edited, but it isn't a simple task.  It should be possible, but it will take a bit of work, and I've been busy with more-pressing tasks first.

[sinc]

In terramodel, to stake a sewer line for example, the procedure was quite easy.  We offset the sewerline 25' first.  Then set the out elevation at one end of the line and the in elevation at the other end.  Then, if we want points at 25' increments, we just trim the line by 25' and it creates a point at the proper elevation based on the slope from the start point to the end point.  We then repeat this process and it creates another point.

[...]

We export coordinates into an ASCII file PNEZD (comma) to load into our data collectors.

I think you might want to check into exporting Alignments and Profiles to your data collector instead.  That's what we do for our utilities.  Then the field guys can use the station/offset stakeout feature in their data collectors to stake out offsets at any point along the utility line, at any offset.

If you use Trimble equipment, get the Trimble Link from Trimble's website.  This lets you simply select Alignments in C3D and dump them straight into your data collector.  The whole process is very painless, and much simpler than generating a lot of points.

[sinc]

Stephen and Sinc,  I have to say there are times that you guys really make a teacher proud, and humble at the same time.   Keep the good work!

You?  Humble?         

[Dinosaur]

I don't think it's that simple.  If it just "grabbed" any point it found, it might grab the wrong points.

I've been thinking of trying to extend the STAKEFEATURES command so that the points all auto-update if the featureline is edited, but it isn't a simple task.  It should be possible, but it will take a bit of work, and I've been busy with more-pressing tasks first.

Sinc, with 2008 allowing us to select individual points finally, would there be a way to use them within a regular AutoCAD group and manipulate them in this fashion along with the other associated objects?

[surveyor_randy]

I think you might want to check into exporting Alignments and Profiles to your data collector instead.  That's what we do for our utilities.  Then the field guys can use the station/offset stakeout feature in their data collectors to stake out offsets at any point along the utility line, at any offset.

That seems like a good idea, but doesn't it slow the guys down in the field instead of them having a drawing with point numbers and points already created in the data collector?  BTW - nice job on sincpac and thanks for keeping it free and sharing your source code! 

[surveyor_randy]

Thank you for the explanation.  I think that you should be able to create the points you require quite easily as long as you are making your offsets along an alignment or create an alignment along your offset line.  On the POINTS pulldown, you will find a flyout for Create Points - Alignment that will give you several methods of automatic point creation.

I like this idea too.  If I offset a line, then create an alignment on my offset.  How do I assign start and end elevations for the Alignment?  This is where I start to get confused.  This website is great and I'm glad that I found it.  Actually, Sinc's website pointed me here! 

[sinc]

I don't think it's that simple.  If it just "grabbed" any point it found, it might grab the wrong points.

I've been thinking of trying to extend the STAKEFEATURES command so that the points all auto-update if the featureline is edited, but it isn't a simple task.  It should be possible, but it will take a bit of work, and I've been busy with more-pressing tasks first.

Sinc, with 2008 allowing us to select individual points finally, would there be a way to use them within a regular AutoCAD group and manipulate them in this fashion along with the other associated objects?

I don't know if a group would help or not.  I would probably start by trying to add an Xrecord to the featureline when the STAKEFEATURES command gets run, so that the points created by the command are linked to the featureline.  Then I would have to monitor events and watch for an edit to feature lines (similar to a reactor).  When the user edits the featureline, go through and update the associated points.

But I haven't tried poking into it yet.  I think it gets a bit hairy.  Keep in mind that the feature line could change in length or be split into two feature lines, which complicates the issue.  And the user might always go in and delete or renumber the points, so the link between featureline and points would have to be done carefully.

A "real" solution would auto-regen all the points when the featureline is edited, but since it might need more points after an edit, there are point numbering issues.  And since we basically have no way to renumber points in the API except for deleting and re-adding them, we end up with problems like any labels in the dragged state get reset, etc.

And of course, until I actually try doing it, I don't know if it will work.  For all I know, editing a feature line destroys the Xrecords, or something bad like that.  So it's not a trivial task.  But it should be possible to come up with something.  It would be a lot easier for the folk at Autodesk to do it, though, since they do not have to fight the limitations of the API.

[sinc]

I think you might want to check into exporting Alignments and Profiles to your data collector instead.  That's what we do for our utilities.  Then the field guys can use the station/offset stakeout feature in their data collectors to stake out offsets at any point along the utility line, at any offset.

That seems like a good idea, but doesn't it slow the guys down in the field instead of them having a drawing with point numbers and points already created in the data collector?  BTW - nice job on sincpac and thanks for keeping it free and sharing your source code! 

It doesn't seem to.  The field guys seem to go just as fast.

And it also deals with issues like when they ask for a 20' offset to the right, but then the field guy gets out there, there is too much garbage to the right, so he has to do 20' to the left instead, etc.  With an alignment/profile at the actual location of the line, the field guy can stake any offset with equal ease.

And you're welcome - hopefully the SincpacC3D will come in handy for you.  Those routines may very well have made the make-or-break difference for us - without them, we may have trashed C3D a while ago and gone with Carlson Civil instead.  That program is WAY more-friendly and supportive of surveyors than C3D is right now (although C3D has more potential, if Autodesk can ever get it together...).

[sinc]

Thank you for the explanation.  I think that you should be able to create the points you require quite easily as long as you are making your offsets along an alignment or create an alignment along your offset line.  On the POINTS pulldown, you will find a flyout for Create Points - Alignment that will give you several methods of automatic point creation.

I like this idea too.  If I offset a line, then create an alignment on my offset.  How do I assign start and end elevations for the Alignment?  This is where I start to get confused.  This website is great and I'm glad that I found it.  Actually, Sinc's website pointed me here! 

The elevations on an alignment are defined with a Profile.  If you are entering elevations from plans, you will want to draw the profile in a Profile View.  So first you create an alignment, then create a Profile View attached to the alignment, then start drawing the Profile in the Profile View.

If you don't know what the Transparent Commands are, now is the time to learn.  A lot of people turn off the Transparent Command toolbar first-thing when they install C3D.  If you did this, go back and turn it back on, and learn to use it.  Here's a picture of it, with one of the key commands indicated in red.

This transparent command lets you draw a profile by keying in the station and elevation.  After you create the Profile View, go to Profiles->Create Profiles By Layout.  Then select the Profile View (so C3D knows which alignment you want to attach the profile to), enter the information for your profile name etc. in the dialog, and click OK.  The Profile Tools toolbar should appear.  Now select "Draw Tangents Without Curves" from the Profile Tools, then click on that "Station Offset Elevation" button in the Transparent Commands.  You can now start typing stations and elevations, keying in the data from the plans.

Once you have finished with the tangents, you can go back and add any vertical curves.  The most useful command for this is also in the Profile Tools toolbar.  Hidden in the Curve commands in that toolbar is "More Free Vertical Curves -> Free Vertical Parabola (PVI based)".  With this command, you can simply pick the PVI where you want the vertical curve, and then key in the length of the vertical curve.

I know, seems complicated.  And indeed, it could be a lot simpler, with a different UI.  But it's not that bad, once you get used to it.  Once you get the hang of where all this stuff is, it goes pretty fast.

[surveyor_randy]

Thank you VERY much for that detailed explanation!  I just fiddled around with it a little bit and I can see how this could come in quite handy.  I don't know how practical using the alignment and profile would be for staking sewer systems.  It seems like you would have a tremendous amount of alignments and profile views in your drawing if you were laying out a large site.  If you don't mind me asking another question, how do you get COGO points out of that, at the proper elevations for the alignment? 

[mjfarrell]

Corridor, Utilities, COGO points would be one way...

[Dinosaur]

First, let me extend to you a proper welcome to TheSwamp.  You are just scratching the surface of the available talent and resources here.  You might consider stopping by HERE and introduce yourself to everyone, maybe let us know where you are and what you do.  Also explore the other boards, there is a wealth of solutions in them written by some of the most talented programmers I have ever found.

[sinc]

It seems like you would have a tremendous amount of alignments and profile views in your drawing if you were laying out a large site.  If you don't mind me asking another question, how do you get COGO points out of that, at the proper elevations for the alignment? 

Well, here's an image of one job we're working on.  This is for the Phase 1 utilities.  You can see all the profile views.

But it works rather slick.  And lately, we've started using a new tool I have been creating, which will be included in a soon-to-be-released version of the SincpacC3D.  This is for those times when you get plans for things like 8" water lines, and there's no profile, just a note to put everything 5.5 feet below finish grade, or something like that.

All told, I can now do in 30 minutes certain utility calcs that used to take me all day.

The time we've been gaining on stuff like this makes up for the time we lose fighting Label Styles and Parcels...   

[surveyor_randy]

I can't wait to see that new utility you have been working on!  We just downloaded SincPac and installed it the other day but haven't had a chance to use any features except the cogo points at parcel corners feature which works great!

When we first purchased Civil3D, we had a company (un-named for now) come in and provide us with a week of training.  They really knew what they were doing with teaching the engineers how to use C3D but seemed clueless about us surveyors.  So I am still in the dark with how we are going to stake designs created within C3D.  Does anyone have a small, completed project with curbs, sewers, storm, etc. that they would mind sharing with me so I can play around with creating staking points?  Tomorrow, I am going into the office to see if our TDS Rangers will handle importing C3D data.  I think that if I can import alignments into the collector, I just may use Sincs method for field staking.  I am open to any ideas on how to get these designs on the ground.

As far as point styles go, they were a pain to get used to but now, I don't know how I ever lived without them.  One nifty trick I found.  In Toolspace - Settings, Create a Point style called 'Hide' and turn off the visibility for the point marker and point label.  Then, in the prospector, assign the point style 'Hide' to your _All Points group.  Next, click your right mouse button on Points Group in the prospector and select properties.  Then, highlight the _All Points group and use the up arrow on the right until you get the _All Points group to the top of the list.  Now, all of your points are hidden, regardless if they layer they reside on is on or off.  If you highlight one of the point groups below and bring it to the top of the list, that point group will be displayed.  I love being able to selectively display point groups without having to turn layers on and off, etc.  Every new drawing I start now has the _All Points group already set up with the 'Hide' style.  Most of you probably know about the point display hierarchy but for those of you who don't, enjoy!

[mjfarrell]

So what did they teach you Surveyors how to do?

[surveyor_randy]

They taught us a whole bunch of stuff about useless features.  Like the survey database, and creating traverse networks and equipment databases.  We don't use the Survey database at all.  The engineers aren't going to tamper with our control points since they are XREFing what we are doing.  We are still creating our traverses as polylines and adjusting from there.  How to work with field book files (which we don't use).  They didn't show us what we needed to know (but have since learned on our own), entering a deed, for example.  They showed us traverse adjustments (which we rarely perform textbook adjustments).  I guess the most useful portion was learning about description key sets.  But they covered NOTHING about generating points for staking all of the wonderful designs that C3D can do which was the primary question we had.  9 out of 10 people who offer up C3D training seem to know little to nothing about surveying in the real world.  It is a shame.

[Mark]

FWIW, I've never used, nor has any one I've worked for, any Adesk products to do traverse adjustments. The tools they offer didn't "cut the mustard".

[Dinosaur]

Our surveyor does his own . . . I doubt if he would trust anything we could produce in the office IF we knew how he wanted it done anyway.

[sinc]

They taught us a whole bunch of stuff about useless features.  Like the survey database, and creating traverse networks and equipment databases.  We don't use the Survey database at all.  The engineers aren't going to tamper with our control points since they are XREFing what we are doing.  We are still creating our traverses as polylines and adjusting from there.  How to work with field book files (which we don't use).  They didn't show us what we needed to know (but have since learned on our own), entering a deed, for example.  They showed us traverse adjustments (which we rarely perform textbook adjustments).  I guess the most useful portion was learning about description key sets.  But they covered NOTHING about generating points for staking all of the wonderful designs that C3D can do which was the primary question we had.  9 out of 10 people who offer up C3D training seem to know little to nothing about surveying in the real world.  It is a shame.

Yeah, I don't know why they bothered with the Equipment Database.  That stuff is already handled by the data collectors, as it should be.  We in the office have no desire at all to worry about that stuff.  Plus, if you work for a company where not all the survey equipment uses the same values, there is always the chance of using the wrong values when importing data.  Meanwhile, if this is handled in the data collector itself, it's always right.  Talk about wasted effort.

Working with FBK files can be useful.  If you are currently "connecting the dots" when you do a design survey, then the FBK files can save you HUGE amounts of time.  However, the entire FBK import process is extremely clunky, and very poorly designed.  There's a program called "Stringer", written by CadApps in Australia, that does a much better job.  It must be purchased separately, however.  But it is probably worth the price for full-time surveyors.  We haven't bought it yet, but we've been considering it, because Autodesk's FBK is so unpalatable.

The big reason we can't use the Survey Database is that it has absolutely no knowledge of GPS.  Most of our jobs these days end up being a combination of GPS and conventional equipment, and C3D doesn't even know GPS exists.  When GPS is used, the Survey Databases idea of a "survey network" becomes useless.

So we only use the Survey Database to import FBK files, and get linework in our drawing.  Unfortunately, the Survey Database is designed with this incredibly stupid assumption that you will only ever create one EG surface in your project.  Don't know how they managed to get this program through five releases, and still have that problem.  We hit it IMMEDIATELY upon trying to use C3D.  Laurie (again at CadApps in Australia) came up with one possible workaround for this issue, found here.  But it's sort of clunky.  And since we aren't using the Vault (another misguided portion of C3D), we simply create a new Survey Database for each EG surface we create in the project.  Again, this means we can't use most of the features in the Survey Database, since we now use multiple Survey Databases per project, but we weren't using those features anyway.  So no big loss, but it really makes us wonder what Autodesk is thinking.  They keep giving us solutions to non-problems, and ignoring the stuff we REALLY NEED... 

[surveyor_randy]

They keep giving us solutions to non-problems, and ignoring the stuff we REALLY NEED... 

Astronomic Direction Calculator.  Case & point.  Who does those anymore?  I think the only time I ever did one was in college.