Author Topic: ( C3D '08 ) Book  (Read 6623 times)

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mjfarrell

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2007, 05:15:30 pm »
Quote
Some people just have more money than they know what to do with!!

All because of the VAST improvements in efficiency, teamwork, and excitement at each and every bright new day we gained with C3d.  .  Everyone in the office is extremely excited about C3d. We are taking a company camping trip this weekend, a 'retreat' to reward everyone for successfully completing so many profitable projects with C3d.

We never have been able to design and get approved and build a subdivision with near the quality and time savings as we do now with C3d.  In fact, I'm so good at it, I'm offering a training seminar.  It's a LOW LOW price, email me for details.


Somehow I doubt this book really changed the way you use or view C3D. :roll:

Not likely.

However, since there are only a handful of really talented implementors out there (such as yourself) and several thousand users, college classes and such that are hungry for help... someone had to step up to the plate and hammer something out.  It isn't the same as having an experienced human over your shoulder, that's for sure.  And there are definite gaps and room for improvement, but out of the small collection of bound paper out there that calls itself Civil 3D learning material... you get my point.

After spending several hours looking through a borrowed copy of this book, here is the unvarnished review:


Given the number of errors and ommisions that are being reported; it would seem that simply hammering something out is an apt description.  Not to denigrate the authors; they should have taken the time to at least have a peer review of the material so that the reader would not need to edit the book. Typical is the instruction that it is OK to delete TIN lines from within a surface for building and ponds surfaces; this is simply wrong and a bad idea. Truth is properly collected a building pad as break lines WILL have triangles in it at the Finished Floor elevation and no one should chop them out.  Scientist, and doctors typically follow a peer review process to keep such errors out of print.  The authors however are much better politicians than I, as they do a fantastic job of glossing over defects, and deficiencies in the product.  The problem with that type of wordsmithing is that if you don't identify a problem as such it rarely get solved; because no one admits that it is a problem.  If however a user has no other source of training then the book should at least get them started with using C3D.  However remember Don't judge a book by it's cover, i.e. this is NOT a mastering level book from my perspective
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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jpostlewait

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2007, 08:48:29 pm »
>>here is the unvarnished review:<<
really? :lol:

mjfarrell

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2007, 09:11:44 pm »
>>here is the unvarnished review:<<
really? :lol:


Yes, unvarnished. Notice that I did not mince words or otherwise attempt to sweeten my speech to be politically correct or otherwise?

 :|

EXAPLE of VARNISHED review:
The authors did a fantastic job of covering much of the material. Many of the topics were covered well; with a few exceptions.

I did not say un-opinionated.  What I said is exactly my opinion.  Given that they left out medians, four way intersections, roundabouts, I find it hard to give it the MASTERING title they applied to it. Especially since it claims the reader will be able to perform said modeling on the back cover. Is this a false claim or false advertising, you decide. Even as you said in an earlier dialog; it is an 'essentials' type of manuscript. I have seen others attempt to dismiss the 'errata' as inevitable with this type of work.  The fact is said errata could have been avoided by implementing good peer review of the material, and editing prior to publishing it.

Asking for readers to fact check, or otherwise perform QA/QC on the book's content afterward is ( insert word here).

To be clear I am not attacking the authors, I am attacking the method that much like Autodesk's of 'rushing' a product to market that isn't quite ready and then asking the user (reader) to beta test it for them. My thought is that it would have delayed the publication by as little as four weeks to have it reviewed, and or add the material required to bring it the MASTERING level.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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numa

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2007, 01:01:29 am »
your comments are well taken, however, they belie the fundamental idea that the software exists to be software.  I don't agree with this, as I believe the software is but a tool for the greater good of getting homeless children off the street.  I am sure there is great value in debating the products shortcomings, and there are many.  However, I do not believe that the product, IF PROPERLY MANAGED, interferes with the process of getting homeless children off the street any more than the local city governments do. 

It is easy for one to get wrapped up in a one on one battle over the use of the product, and I admit I have done this, my coworkers have done this.  The simple fact is, we were ALL designing, and publishing plans, and coping with the cities long before c3d came along, and we will continue to do so after it has come and run it's course.  It is but a single blip on the radar screen of engineering know how, practices, training, and real education.  It is but a grain of sand in the shorts of the IT person that implements, it is but a the tiniest of concerns compared to the lasting solidness of single 4'x4' area inlet.

The book does it's job of providing some guidance when sometimes you simply can't remember a specific procedure, where a command might exist, or where a function might lie.

I know many of you take this program very very seriously, and consider every little retarded thing that Autodesk does a personal afront. I know that every city comment stikes as a personal afront upon your grand design.  Apparently someone, somewhere told you that engineering isn't about trial and error.  Apparently there is some bright shining light that I ignore that makes every little change, comment etc some sort of insult. 

The book is fine, it works and has value far beyond the $50 it costs. 

water still flows downhill, subdivisions get built, homeless children still get off street


mjfarrell

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2007, 09:18:07 am »
Numa,

To be clear, homeless children and my comments about this tome are not even on the same plane in my world view.
Second, the actions or inaction of Autodesk, are not "a personal affront", my comments are merely a distillation of the input that I get from real users during my interactions with them.  Just that fact that I am willing to give voice to them and attach my REAL name to those comments is the difference.

One of my personal peeves about this site, adesk news groups, and others; is the tendency of users to hide their true identity.
I encourage all of you to throw your masks away and show people who you really are.

Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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numa

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2007, 09:43:43 am »
Code: [Select]
One of my personal peeves about this site, adesk news groups, and others; is the tendency of users to hide their true identity.
I encourage all of you to throw your masks away and show people who you really are.

Methinks you don't understand the nature of using a discussion forum.  I absolutely do not want to be linked to a real name, why?  BECAUSE IT IS FUNDAMENTAL TO USING A DISCUSSION SYSTEM, our identities are paramount.  The last thing I want is some jack*** calling me at my real job, to discuss my use of Autodesk products.  Trust me, if Autodesk thought they could get everybodies real name, and send them more marketing junk, they would. 

Second, at the end of the day when someone on hear proclaims that none of us understand the product, or are somehow inferior because of the way we use the product, we can blow it off, call the guy an a**hat, and never think twice about it.  Its when somebody starts using my name, and my family name, to make a considerably more personal attack, well, then we leave and never come back. 

My pet peeve about this board and AUGI, and adesk's fanboy site, are the turf wars.  The Hey don't poke your head up over the wall or the turf king is  going to come squash you. 

Back to the subject at hand, the book is very nicely done, and what you want is the book to denigrate autodesk for screwing up here or screwing up there?  Then that book becomes a 'commentary on the failure of megacorp'.  Wow, what a thriller.  I bet that one would sell like hot-cakes.  The book has lots of great info, and for those of us that learn well from books, and learn by self-teaching, and exploration, then it's a great book, and good resource. 

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 03:12:28 pm by Daron »

scout

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2007, 12:02:46 pm »


The last thing I want is some jack*** calling me at my real job,


freaking exactly.

Mark

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2007, 12:20:35 pm »

Quote
One of my personal peeves about this site, adesk news groups, and others; is the tendency of users to hide their true identity.
I encourage all of you to throw your masks away and show people who you really are.

Methinks you don't understand the nature of using a discussion forum.  I absolutely do not want to be linked to a real name, why?  BECAUSE IT IS FUNDAMENTAL TO USING A DISCUSSION SYSTEM, our identities are paramount. 

I've been using my real name here and other places for more than 4 years without problems.
TheSwamp.org  (serving the CAD community since 2003)

scout

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2007, 12:38:31 pm »
it would seem that simply hammering something out is an apt description.  Not to denigrate the authors; they should have taken the time to at least have a peer review of the material so that the reader would not need to edit the book.

hmmm. simply hammering. i can assure you that the hammering was not simple. try 8 months of learning how books are made, starting from blank pages, dealing with editors, beta software and taking thousands of screen captures and hundreds of drawings only having to revisit, rename and renumber them and fight with editors over which ones will be included.  throw in a service pack every few months to make it all obsolete and do this hammering for all for the promise for less money than my cousin cleared at his bar mitzvah in 1985 all while growing life, raising kids, and trying to keep a real job.

you can consider the fact that thought there are books on civil 3d already published, not one of them has truly attempted to scratch deeper than a nanometer, nor to include any ideas for possible best practices. Best practices are never set in stone and it takes great leaps of faith to put yourself out there with what works for you. 

Take any three civil 3d peers and put them to task to review a procedure and each one will have a completely different spin. 

the atmosphere in this industry is so macho and competitive that after awhile people stop expressing their spins because they arent interested in being shot down as idiots.  I remember raising my hand at an Autodesk function a few years ago and asking about Structure to Structure design then being called a hillbilly no-nothing because the folks in attendance were all centerline to centerline designers and thought that structure to structure was absolutely absurd.  It took me awhile before i realized my towns werent totally alone.  Try the entire country of New Zealand also designs that way.

On the Mastering note, I was often floored by people who considered themselves Land Desktop experts, but if I brought up the cross sections menu they didn't know what I was talking about.  In the early Civil 3D days and even now I am still surprised at the dead air I get on the autodesk DG and even from my peers on certain subjects.  The truth is that I am not a Master of Civil 3D nor do I truly know any Masters of Civil 3D.  I know a whole bunch of people who know the basics and can't do squat, and I also know a whole bunch of people who know the basics, were shown some techniques on real projects and ran with it and continue to run with it every day.  Those people will become Masters someday.  The title of the book? It's a series. The publisher says- here is a book.  Keep it to X pages.  Go.  You know Mastering Viz, Mastering AutoCAD, Mastering Your Own Destiny :)

On the subject of using real names... you all know who I am.  I come to the swamp to leave that behind and I'd rather not be searchable and immediately judged by the name on my login- which is why I deleted my other account.  But I guess that was too much to ask?


scout

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2007, 12:43:33 pm »

I've been using my real name here and other places for more than 4 years without problems.

Mark Thomas is a good name to have when using your real name.  Unfortunately, there is only one person listed in the US white pages with my name :)

Diněsaur

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2007, 01:17:53 pm »
I, for one, was delighted to see you come back to TheSwamp and I sincerely hope you feel like you can stay this time . . . welcome back.
Real names . . . I had been burned at another site before I joined here and chose to hide behind a user name.  I opened things up for view in my profile after I became a moderator and even included my name in the sig line up until last week after foolishly joining a second forum under the same user name.  There are two sides to this issue and I think it is up to the individuals to find and maintain their own comfort level.  I know for certain a few eyebrows would be risen were the true identity of certain members here be public.
And finally back on topic . . . the book is a much needed resource for taming this beast of a program.  Whatever the errors of omission or outright errors, it is infinitely better than the pathetic internal "HELP" functions and "New Features Workshop" topics.  The book is there on a shelf if I need it instead of sneaking onto the internet and trolling the forums and discussion groups.  It also makes it less likely I have to send a mayday call to my teacher and wait for an answer.  It is a $55 book and I would not expect it to contain the entire known collection of wisdom regarding Civil 3D.  I can only thank you for your time and effort in producing this book, fighting publishing deadlines and watching as some really good stuff gets cut by the editors.
Stephen R. Sherrill,
The Diněsaur
Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

mjfarrell

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2007, 09:03:37 pm »
I think some of you should:
A)
Go read the first post a little closer; I never said it was a bad book. I said it fell short of being able to truly call itself MASTERING. In fact a few pages in, the book actually admits to it's own limitations, if only THAT were one the cover.

B)
The "hammering" phrase was lifted directly from James Wedding himself.

C)
I am not trashing the book for leaving out any Best Practices, go read it again never said it. The peer review I was suggesting would be to ferret out the errors and omissions the authors are now soliciting from the purchasers of said book.

D)
Clean up your language.  It is more than clear what you are implying; however I can take it without calling in the Moderators, or quiting the group or the discussion.

E)
As authors you should have asked said publishers to give it a more realistic title; ever hear of artistic control of ones work?

F)
Need not remind me of the childish playground politics of those other places; as you all know I am all to familiar with their ways.

First welcome back 'scout'! If I must spell it out, 'scout' I am not outing you, or attacking you.  If however the 'less money..." is an issue for you then perhaps you should have passed on it.  I am not discounting the work involved, I am suggesting that together the group of you missed a great opportunity to help make the product much better IF you had chosen to not use language to obfuscate the defects and deficiencies.  Perhaps it wouldn't have been published IF you as a group had been honest about the failings of the product. However IF that honesty motivated 'the good folks in Manchester' to clean this mess up then something almost as good as getting those kids off the street could have happend.

Read the last sentence carefully, I am not suggesting a diatribe on the failings of 'megacorp', I'm suggesting not putting spin on how the product actually fails to function in those areas that it does so.  We all know that there are far more 'bugs' than the one item that was called out as one. 

Mark, I with you on using my real name without any issues so far.  I think many use the anonymity of their user name to act in a manner that they otherwise might not if they used their real name and identity.

The real 'problem' at any of the 'official' sites is the censorship and pandering to their partners. The fact the real issues and real concerns can not be discussed unless one is exceedingly 'diplomatic' and that one not express a few that might look like it is too negative towards Autodesk, AUGI, Solid Vapor, etc.

I do find it interesting that you folks have no trouble promoting, and defending said book here, however you conveniently left a link to The Swamp out of the book.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 09:08:38 pm by mjfarrell »
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Michael Farrell
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Kerry

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2007, 11:34:19 pm »
Quote
Real names . . .


I know that the information/advice provided by superCad0po3r4tor may be just as reliable as that from Jim Bloggs ..
.... but it's a matter of perception and taking responsibility for your actions.

similarly, I feel more inclined to share my time resolving problems with 'Jim' than with Mr oneNamefitsAll.

I consider it's similar to individuals who run sites who don't make their names available .... I assume articles are posted by my gardener.




p.o.o.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

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Diněsaur

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2007, 11:59:01 pm »
Thank you Kerry, that is a point very well taken.
Stephen R. Sherrill,
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Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

scout

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Re: ( C3D '08 ) Book
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2007, 09:48:07 am »
C)
I am not trashing the book for leaving out any Best Practices, go read it again never said it. The peer review I was suggesting would be to ferret out the errors and omissions the authors are now soliciting from the purchasers of said book.


No, you said some of our best practices were stupid- like erasing TIN lines or some such. 

"Hammering" yes.  "Simply Hammering" was what I was refuting.

I was not aware a link to the swamp was left out.