Author Topic: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .  (Read 7028 times)

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Dinosaur

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Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« on: June 11, 2007, 09:52:21 PM »
. . . and I realized today what it is.  The last time my hard disk took a kamikaze dive we were in deadline crisis mode so just the most basic stuff was installed with all the rest to be done later as time permitted.  Today, as I was finishing up a 36 acre, 80 lot subdivision final plat, I realized what had been missing.  I had completed this task exclusively in Civil 3D without once  firing up my old standby r13 and EaglePoint combo for plat annotations.  To be sure, I cheated shamelessly, forsaking the parcel functionality for bpoly's and general annotation objects, but this plat is all 2007 without a hint of the old dtext labels and blocks of single characters, arrayed along an arc and frozen into a block.  This is the first time in eleven plus years that little caliper icon has not had a prominent place on my desktop and I know now that it never will return.  The baton has now been passed.

Maverick®

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 10:09:16 PM »
  The baton has now been passed.

Good thing too.  It was starting to smell funny.

Arizona

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 10:10:36 PM »
Isn't change wonderful? :-)

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 10:11:04 PM »
No, no . . . that was the dog . . . ALWAYS the dog!

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 10:15:49 PM »
Isn't change wonderful? :-)
Only when it is for the better, and this is the first time I could say not only were the results were better, but they were easier to achieve than with my old standby - to the point I didn't even think about my previous methods until after the fact.

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 12:44:55 AM »
To be sure, I cheated shamelessly, forsaking the parcel functionality for bpoly's and general annotation objects, but this plat is all 2007 without a hint of the old dtext labels and blocks of single characters, arrayed along an arc and frozen into a block.  This is the first time in eleven plus years that little caliper icon has not had a prominent place on my desktop and I know now that it never will return.  The baton has now been passed.

Congrats!  Now try to do it all using the Parcels and Parcel Labels...   :-P

I've been figuring out all the quirks and tribulations involved, and getting better with them, but plats like my current one (a 6-page subdivision plat) are still a royal pain.  I've been thinking that we may need to go back to Land Desktop + Map for plats, because Parcels and Parcel Labels are so bad in Civil-3D.  I think it's been taking us roughly 30% longer to do the plats in Civil-3D than in LDD/Map, which defeats the whole point of spending a bunch of time and money on the new software...

Our design surveys are going relatively quickly - faster and easier than in LDD (up until we hit the point we have to send the survey to someone using LDD 2002 or Eaglepoint  :wink:).  And corridors are so much better than Land Desktop cross-section templates that there's no comparison.  But Parcels have been a great disappointment.

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 07:57:42 AM »
Thanks sinc.  As it stands now, I doubt we will ever start using the parcels.  The guy who writes the checks here is down to two main duties - house stakeouts and laying out subdivisions via the old school method complete with client perched over his shoulder.  He comes away with a complete layout optimized for the site.  How am I going to justify spending a lot more time reproducing these efforts?  We are within 10 days of being the same age so he won't retire before I do and he isn't giving either chore up.  Even if he did I would be left fighting multiple sites and stubborn labels just to say I was using parcels.
We have moved along with Civil 3D slowly, using what worked best for what we needed.  We are now using everything except parcels and survey (which is even less likely to be adopted than parcels).  The only other design software in the office is Hydroflow to make up for the missing hydrology functions and doing an excellent job of it I might add.

Mark

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 08:16:00 AM »
I'm just glad I don't have to draw sub's! :lol:

I haven't used LDT in a long time now and didn't even install it this go round. I don't use parcels cause I really don't need them most of the time. I was playing with the new and improved labels last week, it's looks like I can make use of them now.
TheSwamp.org  (serving the CAD community since 2003)

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 08:37:36 AM »
Here is a screen shot of the most congested area of the plat.  The geometry is so complicated, I am not sure it would even be possible to annotate via parcels.  These are all general line and curve labels using only three defined styles each for interior lines and curves and two each for the boundary courses.

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 12:31:52 PM »
Here's a section of the one I'm working on right now.

This is almost entirely done with Parcel labels, except for the roadway centerline, which is done with General Line/Curve labels.  I also use General Notes with Reference Text for some of the parcel areas, since Parcel Area Labels have this obnoxious tendency to constantly reset themselves to their original location.

This kind of illustrates that plats are largely possible with Civil-3D Parcels, but the amount of effort required makes it a questionable task to perform in Civil-3D.  If it's faster and easier to do in Land Desktop, then why should anyone spend all that time and effort and aggravation learning and then fighting Civil-3D?

And it's not just the design of Parcels which is insufficient - the design of the Parcel Labels is pretty bad.  The number of styles required to accomplish this using Parcel Labels is ridiculous.  For a while, it seemed the aggravation might have something to do with our lack of experience with Civil-3D, and it seemed that once we had done enough and had enough styles setup, we would start getting faster.  But the design of Parcel Labels slows the process of labeling these plats down to a crawl, not to mention there are so many Styles that they become completely unmanageable.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 12:33:12 PM by sinc »

dgreble

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 03:53:15 PM »
Great job Dino!  Looks great!

jpostlewait

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 07:40:19 PM »
Hey sinc.
Where are the setback lines and U/E easements?
Just have to hate the ahole that invented the cul-de-sac.

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 07:54:39 PM »
Thanks Damian, I thought you might recognize someone's whacked out intersection technique.  It looks like sinc has to deal with more curve call outs than I do here.  We still get a pass on providing anything beyond the length on our curve segments and get to do typical radii for the intersections.  I never mastered getting the back lots to label correctly on both sides.  Sinc has that working apparently.  I found the same problem doing mine with the bpoly command, but I was able to eliminate it by the order I selected the lots - as long as the adjacent polyline was turned off it did not create a false PI on the lot boundary I was creating.

The drawing I posted is a 3 sheet effort with all the verbiage and a 100 scale full view on the cover.  I had to hold my nose and do the other sheets at 60 scale so now I have 20, 50, 60 and 100 scale maps working from this drawing.

Jeff_M

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 08:12:56 PM »
Holy Cats! You both have so much room to work with!

In the subdivision I'm working on now, I could fit about 2-3 lots into each one of those. All curves must be annotated with Radius, Delta & Length; except when there are multiple lots, then the overall RDL is shown with only the D & L shown for each internal arc.

I have not yet had to create the plat for this project, but I'll post it once I do.

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2007, 08:15:48 PM »
Hey sinc.
Where are the setback lines and U/E easements?
He is up in the mountains - they may have to grow their own utilities.  :lmao:

Quote
Just have to hate the ahole that invented the cul-de-sac.

Especially those goofy ones in Leawood that they force us to make a 10' diameter island in the middle.  :realmad:

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 08:21:46 PM »
Holy Cats! You both have so much room to work with!

In the subdivision I'm working on now, I could fit about 2-3 lots into each one of those. All curves must be annotated with Radius, Delta & Length; except when there are multiple lots, then the overall RDL is shown with only the D & L shown for each internal arc.

I have not yet had to create the plat for this project, but I'll post it once I do.

Yes, I do have some room on this one, but only because there was no way to fit the boundary on a 100 scale.  Otherwise I would be wedging in all of the still missing easement call outs into 40% less free space.

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2007, 10:33:55 PM »
Hey sinc.
Where are the setback lines and U/E easements?
Just have to hate the ahole that invented the cul-de-sac.

Well, around here, we don't show setbacks on plats - those are on the development plans only, and the engineer does them.  And after repeated requests, I have still not gotten an answer as to what we need for lot easements.  This is in a new unincorporated area outside of town, and I don't think there's a "typical" for the area yet.  I'm hoping that it ends up being like some of them, where it's 10' all around the lot, and I can get by with a simple note on the title page instead of drawing them all on.  Probably too much to hope for.  But in any case, I can't draw them until I know what they are.

And that leads to another joy of Parcels - for curve text, the background mask is not behind the text.  So if I have to draw the lot easements, I'm going to have to go in and add a bunch of wipeouts behind all the curve text.  Joy oh joy.

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2007, 10:40:05 PM »
. . . And that leads to another joy of Parcels - for curve text, the background mask is not behind the text.  So if I have to draw the lot easements, I'm going to have to go in and add a bunch of wipeouts behind all the curve text.  Joy oh joy.

Yet another plus for the general label option - you can choose for yourself about the masking.  I know you are getting some benefit by using them with your staking routine, but have you found any other compelling reason to use them?

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2007, 10:51:18 PM »
Yet another plus for the general label option - you can choose for yourself about the masking.  I know you are getting some benefit by using them with your staking routine, but have you found any other compelling reason to use them?

Well, with the spanning labels, I don't have any duplicate linework.  All the parcel lines you see are the only lines there.  For the road centerlines, however, I used plain lines and arcs.  Therefore, I have two copies of the linework.  One copy of the linework has unbroken segments and can be used to label overall distances, and the other contains linework that is broken at every intersection, like what happens with the Break Crossing Objects option in Map Cleanup.

And of course, Parcel Labels can be turned into tags and added to Line/Curve tables, which auto-update if the linework should change.

If you aren't using Parcels, how are you doing your lot area annotations?  Are you using Map Topologies?  That's what we used to do in LDT.

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2007, 11:27:37 PM »
Old school for the areas - just find the area of the polyline.  Every city in our area has different ideas regarding how much information besides the lot number needs to be included (sometimes as many as 5 different items) so I just make a complex chunk of mtext with the information requested and place it at the centroid.  I did wind up with all of those bounding polylines that I put on a frozen and locked layer but only a few extra lines in odd places beyond that.  I almost like the idea of having that layout hidden and preserved just in case someone does something "unwise" and a quick grip edit will update the labels to conform with any changes made to the layout that are intentional.
My procedure after isolating the lot line layer was to run bpoly in a lot, add my default label styles with the multiple option (this also defaults the location to the course midpoint), erase any I don't need change any styles I don't want to be default, flip and reverse as necessary.  Then I move the bpoly to a frozen layer and go to the next lot.  I also used MAP to locate the centroids, but I didn't like some of those results.  I could do some of this with topologies, but needing addresses, minimum floor elevations and occasional floodplain information in some combination, it gets easier to just do it with primitives.  I am hoping these chunks of mtext will work well in 2008's scaling text and rotation features.  At present, all of this labeling appears only in my final plat.

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 08:18:43 AM »
Yep, that is an old-school approach.

Parcels would probably make all that easier, but at the cost of fighting the labels.  It's a trade-off.  There's a way to add custom properties to Parcels, but I haven't tried playing with it yet.  I *think* it would work for all the extra pieces of information you're talking about - then you could edit that information for all Parcels in Toolspace.

But even without using Parcels, I think you could use Map Topologies to speed up your current procedure.  If you turn your linework into a polygon topology, you can do "Create closed polylines" to create a closed polyline around every lot all at once.  No need to run BPOLY on every lot.

I understand what you mean about annotations.  They're pretty clunky compared to C3D labels with reference text.  But you could conceivably use Object Data to attach all the information to the centroid, and then use a Map Annotation to label each lot.  Editing Object Data isn't the most-pleasant task, but it would allow you to use Map Annotations to label all lots at once.  That's useful, because it helps  prevent errors.  If you change your parcel layout, you can simply update the annotations (or delete and recreate them), and you know they're all up-to-date.

Parcels are similar to using Map Topologies and Annotations, except everything auto-updates as you edit items.  This is a mixed-blessing - editing Parcel linework has a tendency to renumber lots and do funky things to existing labels, so it's not the best.  But with Map topologies, the easiest way to do significant edits is to delete the Topology, change the linework, and then recreate the Topology.  So in some ways Parcels are like new-and-improved Map topologies.

But Parcels cannot autodetect and warn you about gaps, overshoots, etc., like Map topologies do.  Parcels happily use bad linework to create what look like Parcels, but aren't right.  The joys of Autodesk software - we have nifty Parcels that are easier to edit than topologies but are "stupid", we have Map topologies that are smart enough to detect problems in linework but aren't the easiest thing to use, and the two things are incompatible with each other.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 11:22:43 AM by sinc »

Dinosaur

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 08:33:42 AM »
Thanks sinc, that is a lot of stuff to consider for the next attempt.  More than anything, I was pleased to see a complex plat annotated where I didn't have to hold my nose and just accept some stuff I was not happy with.  I have noticed one very annoying thing, however - every blasted label I placed via multi did not survive migration to 2008 regardless if they were in a dragged state or not when I checked it out on my trial version.  I was not really surprised but COME ON AUTODESK  :realmad:
This project can easily stretch out over 3 or 4 years.  Am I going to have to keep every old generation of the program on my computer to make sure I can work on older projects?

sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2007, 06:03:10 PM »
All right, there are at least SOME advantages to using C3D Parcels...

I had all that labeling done, then we find out that they want to increase the width of the Tract along the north side from 30' to 50'.  In Land Desktop, that would have been a ton of work, taking hours.  In C3D, I was able to revise all the lots along the north edge (approx. 40 lots) in less than 20 minutes.  The results are shown.  All areas, line labels, etc. updated pretty-much automatically.

It wasn't completely seamless - several of my labels got reset from flipped and/or reversed status, and had to be fixed.  Some labels moved to bad locations, like the endpoints of parcel segments, and had to be moved.  And of course, some of the parcels renumbered themselves, and I had to fix the parcel numbering.  But I probably saved a good six hours compared to the same task in Land Desktop.  That isn't enough to offset all the extra time spent putting the labels in to start with, but it counts for something.   :wink:

And then I found out we need 7' front, 5' side, and 10' rear utility easements in the lots.  But the POS routine (aka PARCELOFFSET) in my SincpacC3D made those go relatively quickly.  At some point, I need to add the capability of drawing lot easements in many lots at once, as opposed to one at a time.  But it still goes pretty fast.  Then, of course, I had to go and put wipeouts behind the labels that use curve text, since C3D Labels don't place curved text correctly, and the text is not on top of the background mask.  That's probably more work than getting the easement lines drawn.

mjfarrell

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2007, 09:00:56 AM »
Good work Gentlemen.  Keep up the fight! 
You will notice that even the 'guest' writer of a Civil 3D article in AUGI World isn't exactly enthusiastic about 2008 and/or Autodesk's missing a chance to really improve it.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2007, 11:13:52 AM »
I've said before that at the rate they're going, C3D will be "out of beta" in 2014 or so.  And I hope I'm not being overly-optimistic...   :cry:

MMccall

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2007, 11:24:28 AM »
2014  :-o    That'll be right around the time they release the beta of their new Civil/Survey software product and begin the reinvention all over again.   :ugly:

jpostlewait

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2007, 07:32:22 PM »
Couple of observations along this line.
Our former IT manager had a sign on his wall that said simply,

If it works, it's obsolete.

Same guy told me "It's all Beta"

It's a journey not a destination. That's mine.

The web makes this doable if you have the time and are willing to commit the effort to make this pile of stuff work.
This is one resource, there are many.
I run into several of you in other locations and we all need to visit them nearly daily.


sinc

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2007, 09:46:39 AM »

If it works, it's obsolete.

Same guy told me "It's all Beta"


Yeah, except it's not true.  Quality of sofware has to do with the caliber of the development effort.  I've seen plenty of cutting-edge software that works great, just not from Microsoft or Autodesk.

And I'm not talking about software for Mac or Unix systems.  I've even seen some on Windows, although the design of the OS makes it more-diffifcult to create.  Take Sonar, for example.  This extremely-elaborate, cutting-edge piece of software is designed for professional audio work, and can also be used to synchornize audio with video (for soundtrack production).  It has almost no bugs, even though it is designed to work with Windows systems that have ANY mix of hardware and software.  Versions put out for the last two years have worked with both Windows XP-64 AND Vista (assuming you can find drivers for your soundcard and video card).  People are using Sonar 5 - the version that came out nearly two years ago - on Vista with no problems.  And it runs in 64-bit mode, not in the Windows-XP32 compatibility mode.

Some companies were able to have soundcard drivers ready for Vista before Vista was released.  Others still don't have them out.  So it DOES seem as though SOME companies have been working on Vista drivers for years, but not very many.  Maybe Microsoft did an early-release of API information to a few "special" companies that they really like, and left others hanging?  I really have no idea.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 09:48:28 AM by sinc »

MickD

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Re: Something Is Missing From My Desktop . . .
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2007, 05:58:04 PM »
IRT to Sonar, I think it just has to do with good design Sinc, you know, good patterns and object definition with clear interfaces to make each object/part 'plug-able' for easy changes and expansion and maintenance.
Good software should be the sum of it's parts with each part doing a specific job and doing it well, a lot of software - particularly on the MS OS - is too tied together (UNIX uses the 'write many small app's and use them together' philosophy but because of the OS design this doesn't work so well in Windows), take one part out or modify it and you find it affects many other objects, that's bad design!
The worst part is, to fix it it seems they need to completely re-write it, it keeps your developers busy and it's good for business though I guess.
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