Author Topic: 5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.  (Read 13322 times)

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MP

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« on: June 25, 2004, 09:54:38 AM »
(Seizing upon MST's inquirey).

Opinions?
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MSTG007

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2004, 10:04:13 AM »
circular referencing?
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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 10:22:16 AM »
I'll agree with that one. You get things showing up that you don't want or need.

Also don't hard path from an email folder!!!!
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t-bear

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2004, 10:35:01 AM »
We attach xrefs....just the way I was taught.  We do NOT bind xrefs, even when sending dwg sets to the consulting engineers.....they needed a bit of training, but we lernt em bout e-transmit'n and placin' all files in one folder...etc....
Bunch-a durned country boys gotta teach 'em sity-slickers how-ta do thangs....Sheeeesh!

So.....to continue this discussion, gimme your take on WHY overlay's better'n attach......I'm willin' ta larn, but ya gotta corn-vince me!

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 10:39:43 AM »
If you have "NESTED" XREFs, XREFs that are attached or overlayed to other XREFs, the attached ones show up all of the way through, the overlayed ones only show up first time.
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t-bear

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2004, 10:57:59 AM »
But I want them to show all the way through (if I'm following you here) .  My flare pots are ref'd into my burner which is ref'd  into my flare weldment, which is ref'd into my flare top assy, which is ref'd into my site plan.  The flare pots need to show in ALL of these.....is that what you mean?  If I overlay the pots, they will only display in the burner dwg?

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2004, 11:07:01 AM »
That's true, so in your case ATTACHING is the way to go.
However, some XREFs are only for reference and should most likely be OVERLAYED.

Hey, an Exception to the RULE. (There will always be those.)
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t-bear

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2004, 11:15:39 AM »
I love exceptions to the rules....I ARE one! LOL
I can see where overlays would work in some diciplines now .... mapping a building site for instance, but so far I can't see a use here. Now that I understand a bit more, I will be on the look-out for places that would profit from their use ... thanks!

CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2004, 10:40:39 PM »
Two different applications.  Where XREFs are used as components in larger assemblies, ATTACH is the most friendly.  But for large area type models where the XREF is background data, OVERLAY is our preferred method.

Keith™

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2004, 01:45:21 AM »
If an object is only xrefed to complete the project and is not part of the final set of plans does it really matter if it is attached or simply overlayed. For example, I must xref a first floor plan,  second floor plan third .... etc on each set of following floors in a multiple story building. The reason for this is to ensure such things as mechanical chases, direct supporting columns, and plumbing lines up adequately so as to facilitate construction in the field. The final set of plans will have absolutely no bearing on whether I overlay or xref as I frequently will have three to four floors stacked one on top of another simply to allow me to properly address these concerns. In the end, the xrefs are removed, detatched, unloaded, purged and all is well.....or am I missing the point ....
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t-bear

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2004, 12:28:02 PM »
In your case, as in mine, attached would be the way to handle the situation.  there is no problem with circular refs and they'll be removed anyhow.....

CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2004, 01:19:58 PM »
Quote from: Keith
The final set of plans will have absolutely no bearing on whether I overlay or xref as I frequently will have three to four floors stacked one on top of another simply to allow me to properly address these concerns. In the end, the xrefs are removed, detatched, unloaded, purged and all is well.....or am I missing the point ....
FOR US, many xrefs are part of the final design and remain part of the file. SOme are used for information gathering only, as you've described, but usually they are used as part of the design itself.

An example would be undergroung drainage piping.
The foundation detail models would be ATTACHED (and remain) to the FOUNDATION LOCATION PLAN (FLP) drawing file.  That file would then be OVERLAYed (and remain) to the UNDERGROUND DRAINAGE (UGD) model.  All the foundation layers would be set to plot as very thin background information only, while the piping layers would plot considerably bolder.  Any file (such as the iso drawing file) that subsequently attached the UGD model would only see that data (not the FLP).  If the FLP was desired it would have to be attached separately.

Keith™

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2004, 01:23:17 PM »
So, I take it that there are instances when both attached and/or overlayed xrefs would be desirable.
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CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2004, 01:25:27 PM »
Quote from: Keith
So, I take it that there are instances when both attached and/or overlayed xrefs would be desirable.
Yes, different tools for different uses and different outcomes.  It's like asking which is better, a short-handled screwdriver or long?  Well if you have just a little room the short, but if it's way back there, long.

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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2004, 02:25:19 PM »
Isn't this true about most standards? There are good and bad reasons for each?
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2004, 02:34:56 PM »
Quote from: Keith
Isn't this true about most standards? There are good and bad reasons for each?
I think this is different, this is more like wich is better lines or arcs.  Two different tools with two different uses/applications.  Other "standards" topics like "plotting" to scale or layer naming conventions are more user preference based

MP

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2004, 02:58:13 AM »
My 2 cents.

Generally speaking we have outlawed attached xrefs simply because of the circular reference problems that result. While there may be unique situations that might benefit from attached xrefs, they are the exception, and as such, are treated that way, with a raised eyebrow I might add.

imo. :)
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CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2004, 07:45:18 AM »
Quote from: MP
Generally speaking we have outlawed attached xrefs simply because of the circular reference problems that result.  
That was resolved in R14.  Circular references are dropped, its no longer a problem.

MP

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2004, 10:07:41 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: MP
Generally speaking we have outlawed attached xrefs simply because of the circular reference problems that result.  
That was resolved in R14.  Circular references are dropped, its no longer a problem.

It's no longer a problem if your not using r14. If we start a project with AutoCAD version x (which is specified by the client) we execute through to completion using version x, even if the project span 3 or more years, which they predominantly do.
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Keith™

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2004, 10:52:34 AM »
Boy that must really suck .. especially since there have been a few good improvements in later releases ... most notably in my work is the MDI environment
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CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2004, 10:59:01 AM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: MP
Generally speaking we have outlawed attached xrefs simply because of the circular reference problems that result.  
That was resolved in R14.  Circular references are dropped, its no longer a problem.

It's no longer a problem if your not using r14. If we start a project with AutoCAD version x (which is specified by the client) we execute through to completion using version x, even if the project span 3 or more years, which they predominantly do.
We do the same.  We just got everybody up to R2002 last February.  About the same time we landed an R2004 contract.

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2004, 11:06:44 AM »
Quote from: Keith
Boy that must really suck .. especially since there have been a few good improvements in later releases ... most notably in my work is the MDI environment

There is a spectrum of suckage spanning everything from what can be done by automation, to the impacts on xrefs etc, but, MDI isn't really one of them -- the size of the files we generally work with makes MDI impractical. Fortunately, (IINM) we have but one project with r14 dependencies, the balance are using 2002. It's great for me -- I'm finally able to exploit visual lisp and vba to a much higher degree (I did have Vital LISP for versions past) etc. :)
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Keith™

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2004, 11:14:02 AM »
Well, from what I have read, the size of your models would not work well with more than one open...
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CADaver

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2004, 01:11:24 PM »
Quote from: Keith
Well, from what I have read, the size of your models would not work well with more than one open...
our file sizes (20-40Mb) don't impact MDI all that much for us.  But we have some decent hardware, too.  P4, 3+Ghz, Gig of ram, 22" Flat CRT.  They'll slow down some with 5 or 6 files opened, but with 2 or 3 there's no noticable detrement.

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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2004, 01:15:58 PM »
CADaver.
Ours are at least that big and we keep 3 or 4 open all the time ... no problem.  Plot time is our biggest bug-a-boo. with some it can take 3 to 5 minutes to get a plot off and the 'puter's tied up.  I just gotta go peruse the Swamp or sumpin'  ... real bummer!!

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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2004, 02:19:45 PM »
:lol:
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CADaver

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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2004, 03:54:37 PM »
Quote from: t-bear
Plot time is our biggest bug-a-boo. with some it can take 3 to 5 minutes to get a plot off and the 'puter's tied up.  I just gotta go peruse the Swamp or sumpin'  ... real bummer!!
Really?? huh!  The only time I've seen a plot slowdown (that wasn't related to the network choking on something) was using a plethora of screened layers.  "Screening' more than a couple dozen colors seemed to choke down the plot sending considerably.

(.... he said as the thread wandered further and further into ...)

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2004, 09:35:11 PM »
As we have all learned, Attached or overlays are required for different purposes. The safer way is to use overlays. As for the comment about circular reference being resolved in r14, I had a problem just yesterday with this in 2002 files.

Attach will work well for certain situations where you don't want to keep referenceing the same set of drawings over and over again. Instead reference one file with all your reference's attached.

If you work with background files for different disciplines or parts of a job and you have 20-80 background files. If one file has all 80 attached in, where ever that one file get's referenced in, all 80 will follow. This may  not be effecient because you only needed to show 5 of the 80. Overlay would not allow the 80 to follow.

One thing that I have done in the past is create a referencing file. This file is a blank file with nothing but reference files attached. You can then use this file to populate your drawings with your normal set of files that need to be referenced in... your background files can still have reference's that are overlayed...

Pieter

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2004, 10:19:07 PM »
Quote from: pmvliet
The safer way is to use overlays.
UNless you need it ATTACHed.


Quote from: pmvliet
As for the comment about circular reference being resolved in r14, I had a problem just yesterday with this in 2002 files.
"SINCE" R14, not "in" R14.  It was still a problem in R14.

We do it n R2002 all the time, you get an alert that there is a circular reference, CONTINUE?, you say yes and carry on.  What kind of problem are you having with it?

daron

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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2004, 09:01:47 AM »
I use both attach and overlay. Most people and I speak for everyone in my office, doesn't understand the overlay concept as yet. They are both useful, but you have to think about what needs to convey and what needs to be dropped from ref 2 ref.

whodo

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2004, 09:47:06 AM »
We don't use xref's in our business but I
recieved about 20 drawings from a client who does.
The did not send the xref's with the files and it took
about a week to get a hold of somebody over there
who new what I was talking about and could send me
the xref files. So in short I guess I'm not a big fan of
them at this point.

t-bear

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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2004, 10:46:34 AM »
Quote
They are both useful, but you have to think about what needs to convey and what needs to be dropped from ref 2 ref.

Which is why we use attach...there's no problem with "do we need this later on?"   Place each xref on its own distinct layer, then if it's not pertinant to the particular dwg, freeze it!  This works especially well in multiple vports. You can display all or part of an xref in one vport and freeze it in the others........works GREAT here............

CADaver

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2004, 11:52:12 AM »
Quote from: whodo
We don't use xref's in our business but I
recieved about 20 drawings from a client who does.
The did not send the xref's with the files and it took
about a week to get a hold of somebody over there
who new what I was talking about and could send me
the xref files. So in short I guess I'm not a big fan of
them at this point.
That's not a problem with the tool, but with the goober using it.  Geez, XREF has been around for 10 years, isn't it about time everybody know what to do with them?  And ETRANSMIT makes it so bleeding easy.

Keith™

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2004, 01:35:23 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
... And ETRANSMIT makes it so bleeding easy.


Why must everyone avoind ETRANSMIT like it is the plague ...

If everyone would simply send all of the required files, then there would be no problems with missing xrefs, text styles etc.
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whodo

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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2004, 01:36:35 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: whodo
We don't use xref's in our business but I
recieved about 20 drawings from a client who does.
The did not send the xref's with the files and it took
about a week to get a hold of somebody over there
who new what I was talking about and could send me
the xref files. So in short I guess I'm not a big fan of
them at this point.
That's not a problem with the tool, but with the goober using it.  Geez, XREF has been around for 10 years, isn't it about time everybody know what to do with them?  And ETRANSMIT makes it so bleeding easy.


I actually think it was a raisinet not a goober.

MP

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2004, 01:41:30 PM »
Quote from: whodo
We don't use xref's in our business but I
recieved about 20 drawings from a client who does.
The did not send the xref's with the files and it took
about a week to get a hold of somebody over there
who new what I was talking about and could send me
the xref files. So in short I guess I'm not a big fan of
them at this point.

IMO that's a flaw in the workflow, not the technology. You may in time appreciate the benefits xrefs represent when properly administered. Like most things, keep an open mind, just don't let the grey stuff spill out. :)
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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2004, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote from: whodo
I actually think it was a raisinet not a goober.

No,no,no, raisinet has "CHOCOLATE".... "CHOCOLATE" is goooood thing....

Goober is just funny bean, we call nut.

whodo

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5. All XREFs shall be overlayed, not attached.
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2004, 11:02:12 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: whodo
I actually think it was a raisinet not a goober.

No,no,no, raisinet has "CHOCOLATE".... "CHOCOLATE" is goooood thing....

Goober is just funny bean, we call nut.


point well taken chocolate is very very good thing