Author Topic: help helping others  (Read 9825 times)

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daron

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help helping others
« on: June 25, 2004, 09:24:49 AM »
I work with a lot of "Designers". As you know "Designers" aren't cad people. They are the ones who learned cad as an off-shoot to their studies. I've taken some time to try and put together some write-ups, using the help files as a basis, to help teach them to better use Autocad. There's one concept that the help file can be confusing to read: Overlay xrefs.

My question: Can anybody come up with a one-page instructional to help non-cad people, who use cad, understand the Overlay concept? I thank you in advance.

MSTG007

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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2004, 09:47:58 AM »
WOW... i call that a standard honestly...
I try to document my standard with image steps ....  so it will be more than one page... but its easier for them to see what step they are at.. for non and regular cad peeps.... then i have a PDF with all the info or a hard back binder with the info in there....
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ryandk

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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 10:20:05 AM »
I have a sheet from our cad standards in pdf format.  I think it explains them pretty well.  If you'd like them I can send them to you.

Ryan

daron

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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2004, 11:33:41 AM »
Ryan, please do. You can upload it to the lily pond or email them to me. Just post a link to it if you choose to upload it. Thanks.

P.S. I was trying to explain them in my own words, but just couldn't seem to put something together that they would understand.

M-dub

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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 11:45:06 AM »
Me Daron, You Designer...
Designer No Touch Acad!
Bad Designer!
Daron Good!

MSTG007

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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2004, 11:51:51 AM »
LOL so true....  but sometimes you can teach a guy who knows no cad to just PLOT!

:)  saves alot of time on cad guy
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Slim©

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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2004, 01:00:40 PM »
Quote from: Daron
I work with a lot of "Designers". As you know "Designers" aren't cad people. They are the ones who learned cad as an off-shoot to their studies.


Quote from: M-dub
Me Daron, You Designer...
Designer No Touch Acad!
Bad Designer!
Daron Good!


Substitute Engineer for Designer.
I drink beer and I know things....

M-dub

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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2004, 01:03:54 PM »
I was actually substituting Designer for Engineer from a conversation I had this morning with one of them here!  ;)

He still didn't understand...

t-bear

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2004, 01:21:14 PM »
Yours either......anyone know of an engineer obedience school in the south/central Missouri area?
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Dent Cermak

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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2004, 01:22:44 PM »
Ours keep marking territory.  :shock:
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2004, 01:46:54 PM »
Most common comment from an Engineer I used to work with "What's taking you so long, I can do that in 15 minutes." AAAGGHH!!!

Right, and you'll follow all the standards too.

No, I'll draw it then you can make it look pretty. AAAGGHH!!!
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daron

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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 02:54:38 PM »
No, mine need to touch acad. That is why I need to help them know more. I want to do certain things here, so I need to increase their "comfort level" with their ability to use the program. I'm giong by the rule of implement 5 changes and one will stick.

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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 02:56:08 PM »
I feel your pain, I'll see what I have in my files for you.
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CADaver

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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 10:52:37 PM »
ummm... excuse me... but... ummm... uhhh...
most of us (including me) are designers (2 yr techies or better) .  Some of our best operators have master degrees in Civil Engineering.  We only have a handful of CAD drafters.
...
so... umm...
...if...
...ummm... ...you don't.. umm... mind...

WATCH YER MOUTH


...oops.... sorry...
:D

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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2004, 12:19:41 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
ummm... excuse me... but... ummm... uhhh...
most of us (including me) are designers (2 yr techies or better) .  Some of our best operators have master degrees in Civil Engineering.  We only have a handful of CAD drafters.
...

so... umm...
...if...
...ummm... ...you don't.. umm... mind...

WATCH YER MOUTH


...oops.... sorry...
:D


Good for you CADaver, you seem to have a optimal arrangement, the understanding of the Engineers. Most I have worked with barely know how to open a drawing. Not to mention how to follow the written standards given them, they figure that since they are the engineer they know how to do it all "WITHOUT ANY TRAINING" or "WITH A ONE DAY SEMINAR" and "NO EXPERIENCE" drafting, laying out plans ...

OOPS sorry, got on the "Soap Box" it's just a little frustrating...
I drink beer and I know things....

Keith™

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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2004, 12:41:59 AM »
Hey, I fit into that category as well, with 12 years in AutoCAD, I have came to a point where I am the designer, I create the drawings and tell the engineer HOW it is going to be done,  if he has a problem with that then I ask him if he has a better idea. I seldom have to change a design once I have set it in writing. I am responsible for calculating bearings, beams, loads, uplifts, lateral shifts, fastening schedules, and a whole host of other tasks which would normally be left up to designers.
I cringe when people refer to me as simply the draftsman who put it on paper. It does two things, negates my input into the project as unneeded, and diminishes my worth to my current employer in his eyes. Indeed ALL AutoCAD operators should be akin to designers. It will significantly reduce the need for edits and rework.
If I correctly label a beam the checker will not have to mark it up, and I will not have to fix it, thereby making the process more efficient and much faster. You will also feel good about yourself when you don't have a million markups to do.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2004, 01:10:53 AM »
I drink beer and I know things....

M-dub

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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2004, 07:33:25 AM »
Quote from: Lance Pickens
Most common comment from an Engineer I used to work with "What's taking you so long, I can do that in 15 minutes."

My boss is constantly saying to everyone, "You makin' a career out of this job or what?!"

Sometimes, it's funny...other times, it just really annoying.  :evil:

CADaver

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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2004, 07:49:06 AM »
Quote from: Lance Pickens



Can we get these added to out emoticon list???

Keith™

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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2004, 01:16:34 PM »
I think Mark may have made a statement about that elsewhere...
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Dent Cermak

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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2004, 01:34:27 PM »
I do not mind helping any of the knot heads around here. What I object to is being forced to do their job for them. Then if the client lays on any praise, Mr. P.M. struts around saying, "see I told you I was good!." and he ain't laid ONE FINGER on the job. They do that you know. So, next job, I mess it up real good. He won't catch it.
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Keith™

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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2004, 02:31:48 PM »
Dent I didn't think you cared...
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yyou

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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2004, 05:35:15 PM »
I have met several Cad op went back to school and got the degree; however, I have not see any engineer willing to learn how to use CAD.  Engineers always say they can fly in Acad or they can do it a lot better, faster...ect but none has fullfilled his words.

daron

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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2004, 08:55:42 AM »
Let's see if I can clear this up. When I say designer, in this case, I mean interior designer. There is one here that really does know how to use cad. The rest, at least the one's I work with, know how to use what they've been told to use. They have a strange setup here. They have cad people to draw up what the building we're working on looks like, then the designer adds the furniture, art and paint colors. The drawings then come back to cad for us to detail. We're working on trying to better the ""standards"". <-Double quoted for emphasis. The standards here are poor at best. The IT guy here used to be a cad guy. I think back in r8 or 9. He's got everybody thinking that scripts are still the best way to go. He's even gone as far as to tell a co-worker of mine that he's not allowed to create new layers because it will mess up his scripts. I told him that was crazy and have proceeded to create three necessary layers. I'm here to make some waves. I refuse to work in a sweat shop.

t-bear

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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2004, 12:05:02 PM »
Daron wrote.....
Quote
I'm here to make some waves


I *knew* there was something I liked about you.......

CADaver

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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2004, 06:52:13 PM »
Quote from: Daron
When I say designer, in this case, I mean interior designer. There is one here that really does know how to use cad...
Around here "designer" (and there are several levels) can be anyone from a degreed engineer to a hig school drop-out with a lot of experience, the term engineer is reserved for those guys with the stamp, and we have a few "drafters" but not many.  EVERYONE, except the Project Managers are ACAD literate and nearly everyone uses it with some regularity.  I've made it a point (or vendetta) to make sure everyone knows and uses it the "right" way (right for us).

Jassper

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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2004, 12:53:20 AM »
Quote from: yyou
I have not see any engineer willing to learn how to use CAD.  


Well we must be the exception to the rule, we have a few engineers who are using ACAD, they don't know it well but they will always come in and ask me how to accomplish something on cad....  they like me cause I am patient with them! the simplest things to me like .... creating a roundabout... well the engineer knows how to draw a circle but wants it tangent and rotated etc....  Another engineer wants to learn Eaglepoint ... this way he can work on the road and spec the verticle curves for speed himself.  The problem we have is the "Drafting Supervisor" wants things done HIS way- not how the engineer wants it... Gosh do they butt heads

I'm considered an Engineering Technician - Like Keith I do way more than just Drafting...  But I also understand I get paid to continually change things, a perfect example is the road I'm working on - the project is at 80 percent with all the profiles in - The engineeer comes back and says - He went to public works and they have material right close so the profile needs to be changed now no grading, road 4" above existing now and one hump before the wash can now be raked.... Oh did I mention he wants it done by next week. Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining (I can have it done in 2 days) - this is just life - this is why we get paid the big bucks to continually change things.

I for one love a challenge....  Ok I think I'm rambling now... almost my bed time...  I'll stop here. Thanks

daron

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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2004, 08:58:13 AM »
YYou, meet KateM; a regular here at the Swamp. She's an EIT last I recall. She also has a good handle on this Autocad thing, even though she is consigned to LT. If she don't know something, she knows to come here for the answer. That to me shows she knows more about autocad than most people we all here complain about on a regular basis.

Keith™

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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2004, 10:06:50 AM »
Hmmm.. I looked at Eagle Point, but never got into it... what can you tell me about it?
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Dent Cermak

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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2004, 10:43:37 AM »
it sucks. it's a direct competitor to LDD. I tried it for awhile, but compared to LDD it was combersome. Didn't care for the contour package at all.
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yyou

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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2004, 01:20:12 PM »
Jassper, yes,  there are some exceptions.  My point is that engineers want to do Cad but very few are willing to learn how to do it the right way.  Like: they always turn blipmode off  :) just kidding, osnap, layers, forced colors...etc.  Another word, they need to learn all the basic before messing with the dwgs.

Few years back, I told an engineer that he had to use osnap tools.  After a few resistants like:  It's a waste of time or it's close enough..ect, he agreed to use them.  He then asked me to show hime to do arc.  The next thing I knew, he drew round corner ductwork by using arc instead of fillet.

Daron, Kate M is in diff type.  These are engineers who leaned Cad while in school then continued using it as a designer (EIT).  There are not many PE willing to learn Cad.  They just want to do it.

CADaver

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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2004, 09:23:10 AM »
Quote from: yyou
My point is that engineers want to do Cad but very few are willing to learn how to do it the right way.  ... There are not many PE willing to learn Cad.  They just want to do it.
An experience not shared by all.  I have found that our engineers are more than willing to learn, if someone is more than willing to "teach".  By that I mean really "teach", not just throw out an odd command or two, but setup formal training classes.  After four years of college, sitting in a class is normal learning mode for many.  And I've also found, here, that degreed folks are more receptive to weekly "lunch-time-learning" sessions.

I don't think it's the engineers that are the problem, but rather the presentation.  But then again, I may be biased.