Author Topic: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!  (Read 5562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sinc

  • Guest
( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« on: December 18, 2006, 11:02:57 am »
OK, just had to get that out of my system.

This has got to be the most obtuse label-creating system I've ever seen.

Simply trying to put a general label in a plan, and rotate it, is nearly impossible!  I've finally found a workaround that involves using Line Labels, and labeling lines that are put on No-Plot layers, but this is ridiculous!

Diněsaur

  • Certified Bovine Scat Distributor...I lay it on THICK
  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 5406
  • But I don't WANT a Day Job
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 10:54:01 pm »
It sounds like we have settled on about the same workaround . . . I am also using similar methods for IDing section lines and deeded course information that is in different datum . . . it makes for a lot of extra styles though.

WARNING . . . I am now going to speak heresy . . .

I have very little use or regard for the highly touted same-size-and-rotation-in-every-viewport Civil 3D labels.  They frankly add very little benefit to my labeling chores and are quite often more problem to me than simply using the old different layer method or simply using paperspace for my text.  The theory is grand, but it fails in practice when the scales of your viewports are too different.  Nearly all of my projects include scales of 100 and 20 along with a standard 50 scale shouldering most of the burden.  The same labels simply do not work in all three scales resulting in my not only having to create multiple labels and layers, but also create multiple styles.  The plan readable feature is much more flexible, but can still result in unpleasant surprises when the same label is visible in viewports of different rotation.  I can get better results and be nearly as efficient by adding this annotation in paperspace.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 10:56:01 pm by Diněsaur »
Stephen R. Sherrill,
The Diněsaur
Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

Cannon

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 09:13:28 pm »
The plan readable feature is much more flexible, but can still result in unpleasant surprises when the same label is visible in viewports of different rotation.  I can get better results and be nearly as efficient by adding this annotation in paperspace.

Until it changes and you have to relabel the whole thing....

Diněsaur

  • Certified Bovine Scat Distributor...I lay it on THICK
  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 5406
  • But I don't WANT a Day Job
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 11:25:59 pm »
Until it changes and you have to relabel the whole thing....

Quite true IF I placed my submittal ready annotation early on in the design.  I hold my nose and live with all of the generated labels until the plot date is set for the second round of submittals and then do whatever I have to do with the set to keep all interested parties happy.  The offending labels remain for checking but do not plot throughout the balance of the approval process.  The only problems I have with the plan readable are on sanitary and storm sewers when the same structure label is visible on multiple views with different "twists" (yes, I am also one of those dview twisters - it just works better with the collective support staff I am blessed with).  It seems that well over half the time, there is not even a good place to drag the things so they do not obscure something important on the other views.  Yes, it takes some effort to update my replacement labels when there is a change in alignment or something but there will be some significant time charged if that happens anyway.
My rant was directed more at the automatic sizing feature that assumes the same relative label location will work with any scale.  It does not work with the variance of scale I mentioned is needed and can not work until the label location can be changed independently between different views - a trick that would also solve my plan readable issues above.
Both of these features work flawlessly with simple lot layouts in gentle terrain, but our developers are now having to build in areas with steep (5 to 6% and more) grades which can force some very complicated lots.  They are also looking at $60k+ for even the bad lots and will not blink at adding some extra structures and bury pipe 20+ feet deep to squeeze out an extra lot.  The layout I posted HERE is one of the simplest street layouts we have done in the last 10 years, but there are still some 150' radius curves and a LOT of short course segments on the lot frontages that are nightmares to plat.
Stephen R. Sherrill,
The Diněsaur
Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 03:44:48 pm »
I've got lots of gripes with labels.  One I'm not sure is a gripe or just something I can't figure out - how do I do the equivalent of "Label Line/Curve by Points"?  And are there any Angle Labels?  Or have people been using old-style dimensions to label angles?

But my biggest annoyance can probably be summed-up as the "style breeding problem".  For example, take line styles.  We need a style that labels a line with the direction on one side, and the distance on the other.  But we also need a style that has the direction and distance both on the same side of the line, in a stacked fashion.  Then we also need a style that has the direction and distance on the same side, in a non-stacked fashion.  Then we need a style that has the direction only.  Then we need a style that has the distance only.  But all these styles have the same size text - say 0.10" text.  So now we need to create another version of each of those styles that has 0.12" text.  And then we need to create an entire other set that has 0.08" text.  Then another set that has 0.06" text.

By the end of it, that "Add Label" dialog is a mess, even if we use Child Styles as much as possible.  UGH!!!

I think they need to revisit these labels and label styles.  This current setup is not very usable.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 05:33:53 pm »
SPAN THIS!!!  The label-breading problem seems to get even worse once spanning is taken into account.

Here's the latest.  How do you get the equivalent of Land Desktop's "Direction, Distance above" and "Direction, Distance below"?

The attached image illustrates the issue.  The label style used for the first set of lines uses two text components attached to the label insertion point.  It works as a spanned label.  It is also annoying to place the label on a single segment, because the label comes in next to the cursor.  If the user doesn't select the center of the line, the label will not be centered on the line.  Plus it looks REALLY bad on long lines.

The label style used for the second set of lines uses two text components attached to the start and end of the arrow component.  The arrow is set with a y offset = 0.00, so that the text will be placed the correct distance from the line regardless of which side the line is on.  But this means the label will not work as a spanned label, since the arrow component is not a positive distance from the line.  Moving the arrow to a y-offset that is >0 makes the label work as a spanned label, but requires two different label styles in order to label everything (one can span text above line, one can span text below line).  This one also looks bad, but maybe not as bad as the first option.

The third set of lines was labeled with Land Desktop's label commands, and illustrates the "Direction, Distance above" label.  This is what we want, but can't seem to get.

MMccall

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 09:33:19 pm »
Label placement/center issue:

This depends on how the style is constructed.  If the text components are anchored to the 'feature' they will insert exactly where you pick on the line. Not always a good thing, but you can easily slide them along the line to wherever you want, which is a good thing to have when cramming a lot of labeling into a tight final plat. Not sure if a midpoint osnap would help pop these into place on the first shot. Multiple label placement defaults to being centered.

Another option is to anchor the text components to the middle of the direction arrow. This will always center the text but it'll cost you the ability to slide the text along the line.

The spanned label:
Doesn't the label flip, and/or reverse, make the need for two label styles unnecessary?

The LDD label style:
Try this - Add a line component the style anchored to the direction arrow. Anchor one end to the start of the arrow and the other end to the middle. Anchor the bearing to this line.  Now add another line. This time anchor from the middle to the end. Anchor the distance to this line.  I don't have C3d at hand right this second so I can test this, but it should put the text components close to that in the example and it will adjust to the length of the line.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 01:19:34 am by MMccall »

MMccall

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2007, 12:04:48 pm »
I just tried the LDD style label and it works pretty well.  An option to the above method would be to attach the two lines to the 'label location' of the segment instead of the middle of the direction arrow. This allows some sliding of the label as the 'label location' can be moved along the line. The lines in the label style will resize and shift the text components.


As for the spanned label   ... this whole spanning process is so hokey.   The flip/reverse doesn't always give the best results. The direction the segment was created in comes into play and it doesn't always play well.  I have been able to get some better results by setting the text components right on the arrow, with no offset, and moving the direction arrow to a larger offset.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2007, 12:46:06 pm »

The spanned label:
Doesn't the label flip, and/or reverse, make the need for two label styles unnecessary?

Maybe if everything is done EXACTLY right.  I don't know.  I'll have to play with it more.  The big problem is that having the arrow with Y-offset = 0 breaks any ability to span.  It may work having Y-offset = .000001 or something like that, but then the label will only span in the unflipped state (I think - I'm still trying to sort through this disaster).

Quote
The LDD label style:
Try this - Add a line component the style anchored to the direction arrow. Anchor one end to the start of the arrow and the other end to the middle. Anchor the bearing to this line.  Now add another line. This time anchor from the middle to the end. Anchor the distance to this line.  I don't have C3d at hand right this second so I can test this, but it should put the text components close to that in the example and it will adjust to the length of the line.


Awesome!  It looks like it will work, as long as I don't run into any bad interactions with spanning...  That is a HORRIBLY obtuse and convoluted way of using the program, but that seems to happen a lot in C3D.  Sometimes, when using Civil-3D, I feel like one of those people who can't make left turns, and who have to carefully plan any trip so that it only involves right-turns at every intersection...

The latest issue I've run into goes something like this:  I created a Parcel Area label that has two components - one for parcel name, and the other for parcel area (so that the name of the parcel appears in a larger font size than the area).  The main style has a child, and that child has a child.  For some reason, the Area component disappeared in the middle style.  There are still two text components in the parent, and two text components in the grandchild, but the middle style has only one text component.  Now, no matter what I do, trying to get rid of these styles is crashing C3D.  I can't delete the grandchild style - C3D crashes.  I can't delete the Area component in the parent style - C3D crashes.  It wouldn't be a big deal, except these bad labels are in my TEMPLATE....    :cry:

Oh, did I mention that I HATE C3D LABELS?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 12:47:47 pm by sinc »

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2007, 01:03:57 pm »
The latest issue I've run into goes something like this:  I created a Parcel Area label that has two components - one for parcel name, and the other for parcel area (so that the name of the parcel appears in a larger font size than the area).  The main style has a child, and that child has a child.  For some reason, the Area component disappeared in the middle style.  There are still two text components in the parent, and two text components in the grandchild, but the middle style has only one text component.  Now, no matter what I do, trying to get rid of these styles is crashing C3D.  I can't delete the grandchild style - C3D crashes.  I can't delete the Area component in the parent style - C3D crashes.  It wouldn't be a big deal, except these bad labels are in my TEMPLATE....    :cry:

Oh, did I mention that I HATE C3D LABELS?

YEEHAH!!!!  I fixed it!

I found a drawing that contained the same styles before they got corrupted.  I dragged-and-dropped all three styles from the old drawing into my template, overwriting the ones in the template, and then I was able to delete all three!!!  YEAH!!  And it only took about 45-minutes of constant crashes to figure it out....   :-o

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2007, 06:36:09 pm »
As for the spanned label   ... this whole spanning process is so hokey.   The flip/reverse doesn't always give the best results. The direction the segment was created in comes into play and it doesn't always play well.  I have been able to get some better results by setting the text components right on the arrow, with no offset, and moving the direction arrow to a larger offset.

I can't get the LDD-style label to work with spanned labels - at least, not without more brain-damage than I'm interested in suffering right now.  So I'm using the LDD-style label for NOSPAN "dir, dist on same side" labels.  It works well for that.  I found I also needed to create a "REV" (reversed) version of the style.  Basically, the "normal" version has Bearing hooked to Line.1 and Distance hooked to Line.2, while the "REV" version has Bearing hooked to Line.2 and Distance hooked to Line.1.

As for the spanning labels, I might eventually sort through the mess enough to get the LDD-style lable working correctly with SPAN, but initial experiments were disturbing.  I found with some experimentation that everthing seems to work if I forget about using the Direction Arrow, and just create 3 different styles.  All three have the Bearing and Distance components hooked to the label insertion point, but with varying amounts of X-offset.  The first has Bearing and Distance with only a tiny gap, then there's one with a medium-sized gap, then one with a large gap.  In some initial testing, it seems like between the three of them, one of them always looks good.  Hopefully that holds up in actual practice.  Of course, I still need "normal" and "REV" versions of each of these three, meaning I have SIX styles just to get my "dir, dist on same side of line with SPAN".  Yuck!  But it seems to work, in horribly-clunky fashion.

I'll still have to wait and see how it works in larger plats, like the one I just did where one boundary line extended through three different pages of the plat.  Hopefully I don't have even more issues trying to label something like that...  But one problem at a time.  I guess there's always general labels, if it comes to that...

There's also the possibility of using more Sites - basically turning a problem lot into its own site, so that it can be labeled as-desired.  But I'm trying to avoid creating more Sites that duplicate parcels in my main Site, if I can possibly manage it...  This stuff is supposed to stay dynamically-linked, and stuff placed in different sites is logically disconnected.  So it seems like this should all be done in one Site, but I don't know if that's possible or not, with the way Autodesk implemented parcels and labels...  Guess I'll be finding out.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2007, 04:50:24 pm »
Nearly all of my projects include scales of 100 and 20 along with a standard 50 scale shouldering most of the burden.  The same labels simply do not work in all three scales resulting in my not only having to create multiple labels and layers, but also create multiple styles.  The plan readable feature is much more flexible, but can still result in unpleasant surprises when the same label is visible in viewports of different rotation.  I can get better results and be nearly as efficient by adding this annotation in paperspace.

Blech!  I'm running into this same issue.

And there's yet another problem.  For example, I have a plat that has a 100-scale overall view, then has 40-scale views on succeeding pages.  For a lot of the labels, I'm actually getting the same label to work in both scales, but not in others.  And then there are parcel labels that extend over page boundaries in the 40-scale views.  In some cases, I simply want to turn off the label in one page, and leave it on in another.

But how to do that?  The Parcel Label styles put all my parcel labels on a certain layer, so in order to use layers to control visibility, it seems I have to duplicate all my existing styles, creating a whole new set that puts labels on different layers.  Then I can use VPFREEZE to control things.  But I'm already having severe issues with the "Style Breeding Problem", so that seems like an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE idea.

I discovered that I could create a "turn off on page 2" layer, then select Parcel labels, and manually change them to that layer.  Then I could VPFREEZE that layer in my viewport on Page 2.  This works - it got the Parcel Label to turn off on Page 2 - but it also turned off the linework!  I can always just draw another copy of the parcel lines in the drawing, but sheesh, this is getting nasty.

The only thing I can think of is to delete some of my parcel labels and replace each of them with multiple general labels, and put those general labels on various layers that can be VPFREEZEd, or use multiple general labels in paperspace.  That's pretty unsavory, but it's probably the best choice overall...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 04:35:04 pm by sinc »

Diněsaur

  • Certified Bovine Scat Distributor...I lay it on THICK
  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 5406
  • But I don't WANT a Day Job
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2007, 06:12:39 pm »
It sounds like core AutoCAD may have some of this same functionality in 2008.  Perhaps they have found a better solution or if not they may get plenty of motivation to FIND one.  If all text and dimensions act this way there will be more uproar than cui's caused.
Stephen R. Sherrill,
The Diněsaur
Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

MMccall

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2007, 04:23:58 pm »
Parcel Labels:   While we're flipping and reversing the labels to get them in the right spot the label's readability setting is rotating them right side up   ... and the original, unflipped/unrotated, label orientation comes from the direction the the parcel segment was created in. The effect of the rotation by the readability setting will act on each text component. So, a label with a single text component with Brg. & Dist. will act different than a label with separate text components for the Brg. and Dist. It's a lot going on, and spanning compounds it.  Sometimes I wonder if the spanning feature would be easier to use if it were an 'unconditional span'. You select span and it spans to the ends of the segment no matter what other lines may intersect.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: ( C3D ) I HATE C3D LABELS!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2007, 04:33:18 pm »
How 'bout them curve labels?  There are so many problems with those that I can't even put together a coherent bug report for Autodesk.  They seem to suffer HUGE problems that go back to the old "Autocad arcs are defined counterclockwise" thing.  But then there's even more - for example, C3D calculates the length of the text incorrectly if formatting or special characters are included.  For example, it assumes that the Delta character is the same length as "\U+0394", which causes labels to center incorrectly, and causes background masks to be essentially unusable.

The joy just keeps on growing....   :cry:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 04:36:06 pm by sinc »