Author Topic: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?  (Read 12529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sinc

  • Guest
CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« on: November 17, 2006, 08:49:22 PM »
I'm just curious...  I'm not connected to the NCS, or the AIA, or any other CAD organization.

I went ahead and made it so each person could enter TWO votes for this poll...  (EDIT: changed to three, I think...)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 10:09:48 PM by sinc »

TimSpangler

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 2010
  • CAD Naked!!
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 09:06:55 PM »
Standards are great if they are kept in check and are easy to implement.  But to charge for them??  I don't think so.  But then people buy water that is freely availible  :roll:
ACA 2015 - Windows 7 Pro
All Comments and Content by TimSpangler, Copyright © 2016

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 09:10:12 PM »
You missed an option for me:

""NCS and AIA are bloated, heavy-handed over blown standards developed for a small segment of the industry by self promoting, self-appointed spokespersons (completely ignoring the multitude of experience available outside that small segment) that create many more problems than they solve for the rest of the industry.  I wouldn't use 'em if they were free and came already installed with the software. ""

Add that option and I can participate.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 09:15:42 PM »
You missed an option for me:

""NCS and AIA are bloated, heavy-handed over blown standards developed for a small segment of the industry by self promoting, self-appointed spokespersons (completely ignoring the multitude of experience available outside that small segment) that create many more problems than they solve for the rest of the industry.  I wouldn't use 'em if they were free and came already installed with the software. ""

Add that option and I can participate.

Your wording was too long...   :-D

Did I add an option that will suffice?

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2006, 12:36:41 AM »
I would not purchase "out of the box" standards as they seldom satisfy all of the needs and concerns of any particular office. I would however, be willing to pay a consulting company to review our drawings, methods, requirements etc. then develop a set of standards that at least do the following:

a) Address drawing techniques for continued productivity enhancement
b) Address compatability and usability with standards from other organizations (i.e. clients)
c) Provide for flexibility in expanding the standards as needed in the future
d) Address current concerns regarding document templates. storage and management of drawings

In the end, I suppose there are lots of other things .. but it is late and I am half asleep ...
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

Arizona

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2006, 07:15:21 AM »
Your company standards should apply to what you do and how you work.
I would never buy someone else's standards because they will never work for the way we do business. Even if they are free, they won't fit and you will spend a lot of time (and money) interpreting the meanings of the standards. This is not a one size fits all.  Cad standards (in my company) is a forever changing/living document. As needs change, software changes, and technologies change, the way we do drafting has to change as well.
Take the time to develop your own Cad Standards based on your business, your business needs and your customers expectations. Good cad standards should be short, concise and easy to understand. In other words, you should simply state "thou shall do this or not do this". Don't write a 10 page paragraph explaining why this standard exists and who approved it, blah blah blah, etc...
Include forward thinking into these standards, such as;
where do you want to be in a year (this is part of the how are you going to get there)
how can you gain consistancies to set yourself up for possible automation in the future
Then make sure that you have training for your users so they understand what the standards are and then hold them accountable for their work. Cad standards almost always fail (in a multi user environment) when no one is held responsible for their own work. :-)

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2006, 11:10:28 AM »
Did I add an option that will suffice?
Close, considering you've allowed us two choices, add one more that says:

""NCS and AIA are bloated, heavy-handed, over blown standards and I wouldn't use 'em if they were free and came already installed with the software. ""

And we're in business.


Arizona

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 11:48:43 AM »
Yep, that ^^ would be my choice too. :-)

Dilbert

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2006, 04:28:33 PM »
I agree, I'm not big on standards either if they are required to be purchased beyond just covering the costs of the printed documentation. A universal adoption of standards will likely never take place unless the programs themselves take care of these "Standards" by documenting the data within a database (much like Revit). In this fashion the data can be extracted from the database and utilized/viewed with any office "Standards" required. 

In short, the individual offices will continue to view the data as they see fit and as the data is saved back to the database it would take on the universal data standard. When ever data is extracted from this database each office would be able to view it as they have their Standard view setting setup.

BUT this will not accept a universal adaption as long as programs like AutoCAD are still in wide use. That's not against the AutoCAD way of doing things, it's simply a reason that standards like are being discussed will not take off and achieve true universal adoption as they won't work for each and every type of firm with the way these programs currently control their data.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2006, 05:13:45 PM »
Your company standards should apply to what you do and how you work.
I would never buy someone else's standards because they will never work for the way we do business. Even if they are free, they won't fit and you will spend a lot of time (and money) interpreting the meanings of the standards. This is not a one size fits all.  Cad standards (in my company) is a forever changing/living document. As needs change, software changes, and technologies change, the way we do drafting has to change as well.

Sounds like you're for yet another option, one something like "The whole idea of a National CAD Standard is a pipe dream foisted upon the gullible" or something like that...   :-D

It seems like this is becoming one of those mish-mash polls, and maybe everyone should be allowed three choices... :-)   But I can't seem to change that option.  I had also tried to make the poll one where people could change their vote, but it went the other way for some reason, and now I can't change it...

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2006, 05:30:28 PM »
I fixed it for you sinc, votes can now be changed and there are now 3 votes available

EDIT

Incidentally, I wouldn't spend a single penny for those standards.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 05:41:24 PM by DinØsaur »

Slim©

  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 6566
  • The Dude Abides...
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2006, 09:55:44 PM »
Incidentally, I wouldn't spend a single penny for those standards.

I wouldn't either.

My company has developed it's own standards over the years and is highly successful with them. To be forced into an industry wide standard would not be productive in our case. I believe this to be true with most companies that have been using CAD for many years.
I drink beer and I know things....

sinc

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2006, 10:11:41 PM »
I fixed it for you sinc, votes can now be changed and there are now 3 votes available

I'm pretty sure that earlier, I saw the option to change my vote, but now it seems to be gone again...  Is there something strange going on in the web software?

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2006, 10:13:34 PM »
That option got disabled again somehow.  You should be able to change it now.

dtkell

  • Bull Frog
  • Posts: 217
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2006, 12:10:19 PM »
The standards should be free of charge, unless you are purchasing them as part of software already formatted to exclusively follow them.
If all regulatory agencies adopted these standards, then more people would need to adhere to them. It even seems that separate entities within the federal government have different sets of standards that govern their concerns. Somehow if they were all on the same page, it would be expected that everyone that deals with them would be too.
I have been accustomed throughout my career in accommodating different standards for design, drafting and submissions for whatever agency is being dealt with. If all these aspects were standardized also, everything would flow more easily than keeping track of what each individual governing agency requires.
\"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?\" -Ursula K. Le Guin

sinc

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 12:46:26 PM »
As the CAD Manager for our company, I'm responsible for making decisions about things like these.  In order to make decisions about our in-house standards, I wanted to research the existing standards created by large national organizations.  Then, I would take what I thought were "good ideas" and incorporate them into our standards.  The idea was that, even though we didn't formally adopt something like NCS or AIA or ISO, we would use the "good ideas", and also make it so that our drawings were (at least partially) "compatible" with all of those standards, if not exactly "compliant" with any of them.

But that's when I discovered that it isn't exactly easy to get "Standards".  I tried to go to the NCS web site, and found that I'd have to shell out $500 to even SEE the standard.  And then, I would have to completely buy the thing all over again when it is revised, because they give no credit for owning "earlier versions".  I was shocked to find out that they did not allow anyone to download a PDF, or anything like that.  That's the reason I started this poll - I was so shocked that someone would not only CHARGE for "Standards", but also charge such a large fee, and also force everyone to repurchase future revisions at full-price.  So I wanted to see what others thought, to see if I was alone in thinking this was absolutely ridiculous.

I notice that not one single person thinks that standards should be made available only at a price.  Everyone seems to agree that, if you have any hope at all that this standard will really get adopted, it must be made freely-available, at least as a PDF download.

In general, I approve of the idea of standards.  In particular, I think standardizing the symbols that appear on plans is a good idea, so that it is easier to read plans.  This has sort-of happened already.  For example, I basically ALWAYS see a Fire Hydrant look one of two ways.

But overly-restrictive standards are useless.  We do work for the Air Force Academy, and they force us to use their modified-AIA standard.  But I basically can't use that standard for anything else, because the layer rules are too restrictive, and they force EVERYTHING to look Yellow, Red, or Magenta for our line of work.  Almost everything ends up on one of five layers, and linetypes are typically set ByObject and not ByLayer.  In fact, their standards turn our drawings into such a mess that I find it easier to create a design survey using our layer standards, and then use Layer Translator to make it look like the AFA wants it.

Another problem is that every "Standard" I've ever seen is layer-centric - the bulk of the standard is how to use layers, what to name them, what color and lineweight they should be, etc.  I'm finding those standards almost useless when it comes to Civil-3D, which is Style-based, and has a very different view of layers.  Not to mention, it is impossible for a "Standard" to forsee EVERY situation.  That's why a standard that focuses on specific details like layer settings is so much trouble.

The one thing that's clear from this poll is that the NCS has a difficult battle ahead to gain acceptance.  They are too heavy-handed in their design, and not flexible enough.  They charge for access.  And the whole idea is possibly fundamentally-flawed, since it is geared so much to "Layers".

I still think the idea of a Standard is a good one, but it must be a very flexible standard.  It should keep in mind that the industry will change faster than the standard, so there must be lots of freedom inside the structure.  And it should focus on final output, more than on how the output is created.  Otherwise, it seems doomed to failure.  And it looks to me like both the AIA and the NCS are screaming down that road to failure...  The way I see it, the only saving grace for those efforts is that large government agencies like the DOD think they are a good ideas, and agencies like the DOD have the clout to force people to use specific standards, even if the standard is so poorly-thought-out that it is a net loss for everyone...

LE

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 01:15:24 PM »
Sinc;

I have followed standards from Caltrans, DSA - and many school districts, National Park Service, among others.

All base in general about the sheet size, letter size, layer names and pen weights, to mention the most important..

Fortunately what I do lately does not required any restrictive standards.

LE

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 01:24:11 PM »
As an example... in case worth something here is a link to one of the agencies I had work in the past - the site is public, so I guess is not a problem, if so, please remove it... thanks

http://cadd.den.nps.gov/standards.html

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 02:37:06 PM »
That is a quite slick little application they have there, Luis.  Most important, it seems to make it very easy to work within their standards without having to impact your AutoCAD program in any way while not on an NPS project.
Sinc, you have my sympathies if he is using Corp of Engineers standards for your Air Force Acadamy work.  I was hand drafting electrcal stuff the last time I had to use them and wouldn't want to think of what they could do to CAD standards.

LE

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 04:45:14 PM »
That is a quite slick little application they have there, Luis.  Most important, it seems to make it very easy to work within their standards without having to impact your AutoCAD program in any way while not on an NPS project.

Yes, they are well organized... the only thing I did not like from those standards was the use of xref's for the sheet creation, instead of the Sheet Set Manager (well, I adapted that just for the project I did using A2005 - no idea if the updated their system to work with A2005-A2007)...  :-)

sinc

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 06:24:17 PM »
Sinc;

I have followed standards from Caltrans, DSA - and many school districts, National Park Service, among others.

All base in general about the sheet size, letter size, layer names and pen weights, to mention the most important..

Fortunately what I do lately does not required any restrictive standards.

They might be better than NCS, but they still have issues.  I notice they specify a standard CTB, which would cause issues for us.  We use STBs.  I'd have to dig further into it, and see exactly what those "wizards" do, to see if they work going forward, and I'd also need to examine their LAS file (which I haven't done yet).  From the little I've seen so far, though, they seem geared for old-style work, and are not applicable to (e.g.) Civil-3D without significant revision.

I have yet to see a CAD standard that is not "too restrictive".  Maybe that's why there isn't a national CAD Standard yet, despite years of attempts by various organizations...   :-D

LE

  • Guest
Re: CAD Standards - would you pay for them?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 06:40:24 PM »
They might be better than NCS, but they still have issues.  I notice they specify a standard CTB, which would cause issues for us.  We use STBs.  I'd have to dig further into it, and see exactly what those "wizards" do, to see if they work going forward, and I'd also need to examine their LAS file (which I haven't done yet).  From the little I've seen so far, though, they seem geared for old-style work, and are not applicable to (e.g.) Civil-3D without significant revision.

I have yet to see a CAD standard that is not "too restrictive".  Maybe that's why there isn't a national CAD Standard yet, despite years of attempts by various organizations...   :-D

Yes... all the traffic engineer jobs, was basically per city standards... to much to follow... and in intergraph microstation 4.0 & 5.0

about the standards implementation, I tried with a program named DrawHelp - but as most of my stuff end up in the trash or abandoned.... included is the help file...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 06:46:22 PM by LE »