Author Topic: Lessons learned.  (Read 38059 times)

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jpostlewait

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2006, 06:19:37 PM »
JP,


Interesting, I've had two distinct reactions to the paradigm that C3D, and intelligent modeling as a whole impact the company model. One company, was upset to hear that the traditional model of an Engineering company was being replaced by C3D.  The archaic model of pushing red-lines around, is being replaced by a process wherein data and Engineering intersect to produce smarter plans, the intelligent model, faster with higher profit margins.
At another place a young man reacted in shock and fear as he realized that C3D could quite possibly eliminate his job.  Luckily his manager observed that a good designer would always be of value, whereas someone with simple cad functionality has their days numbered to say the least.

Now to this pay issue.  You know it has long been a peeve of mine as to how totally arbitrary the pay system can be in the Engineering profession.  I've seen guys performing similar functions, paid more because they also happened to be married.  Women paid less; only because they were women.  Or in a personal case; as network administrator/cad manager I developed some processes for them, only I didn't have a job number to bill my time to I missed out on a sizable bonus.  So as you can see, I'm as baffled as you are.

C3D, may or may nor offer any real hope for either of us in the area.  However, IF your company were to get everyone excited about using the product, now there's a different story. Firstly, some will reinvent themselves as the writing on the wall becomes clear that they soon wont have a job without the skillset being shown them in class. Second, some will reinvent themselves because they will see C3D as an opportunity to gain greater skills and responsibilities within the project. Some managers(engineers) will see that if they properly mentor the staff around them, that C3D allows them more time to manage the project, and easily modify the design elements without destroying the drafted output.

Should the tools within C3D be placed in the hands of those that most properly understand the site, and it's unique design constraints the connection between  the drafted output and the design model is total.  C3D calls out for retraining your staff and rethinking the workflow, and
processes, otherwise you risk losing the advantages it gives you.  Properly trained C3D will let you do more with less. Now how you go about getting paid more for doing more, well I don't have a good answer for that one. 



Yup.

Complicated little puzzle.
I'm pretty sure that if we commit to a company wide make-over
, you know along the lines of " Design the model or die " In a couple years we could be outstanding.
That sort of process is painful.
I don't know that we could replace the guys that don't get it with guys that do.
And I object on principle of the concept of you have to know the tool rather than you have to know how the Clients project needs to be designed.
I've got a bunch of people who know the answers to the Civil Engineering questions but will probably not know the Civil 3D way to answer it.

Pretty obvious they are going to have to know both before long.

In the Civil business the problems remain the same, only the tools have changed.

My 16th birthday my father gave me a Post slide rule.
8 scales maybe, can't recall all of it.
First surveyor I ever worked for carried a logarithm table book and taught me the difference between a secant and a co secant.
Well not really, I knew that, I just didn't know how to apply it.

The Civil 3D beast is promising.
It's nearing adolescent stage.
It will be transforming.

I'll cut this off.
Gotta go back to watching the Colts and Broncos.
One of the guys playing for the Colts went to High School with my son.
So I got a dog in that fight.

jpostlewait

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2006, 07:01:43 PM »
Interesting telephone conversation with a friend of mine today.
He has been following this rant and offered some advice on how to move forward.

The two alternatives I had been weighing were the obvious.
1.) Next Pilot Project.
One guy ( generic guy) from original team.
4-5 brand new users.
Essentials training for new guys and introduction to the styles and workflow developed on original project.
Small reduction on support from implementer but still a key player.
Strength; widens install base quickly.
Weakness; replay of painful process.BUT minus much of the difficulty of initial setup.
Added PLUS; would be done with SP3 software version. Huge improvement.

2.) gradual expansion of team.
ADD 2 people to core staff.
Essentials training for 2 new generic guys.
Next project team consists of 2 new people and 2-3 of original team.
Reduced participation of implementer.
Strengths; Less of an immediate impact on expense, my core group gets experience implementing product in our environment.
Weakness; My God this could take forever, I mean really are you going to tipey-toe into this or just frickin JUMP. BUT transition pain levels cannot be ignored.

Back to what advise I received from my friend.
How about just keeping your core team together, produce your next project more efficiently and start to generate some numbers that will justify moving forward.
Show the doubters that this beast can really be tamed.
Different type of project will reveal more styles that will need to be created.
Confidence in product will grow.
In house competence will grow, allowing us to generate a higher level of in-house support.
Strengths; just talked about them.
Weaknesses; no or little expansion of install base.
Could result in overall more cost effective solution.

I'm going to mention again SP3 will change everything in how you decide to move forward.
The product is getting close to the Marketing Hype that has been out there for a few years.


Dinosaur

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2006, 08:10:23 PM »
Your friend sounds wise, John. At least a second project for a base to build from couldn't hurt.  I have found that each Civil 3D project has been different to varying degrees and the expanding base of styles has made each a little easier . . . except when someone drops in with a bunch of layers, etc. from an old project where we had things really messed up.  You haven't mentioned yet what type of development your pilot project was, but perhaps one of a different scope would be quite useful in demonstrating Civil 3D's versatility.  One other consideration is you sound like this pilot is still in the design approval phase and I know first hand what that can mean in your area of Kansas.

jpostlewait

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2006, 06:43:35 AM »
Fair enough, Dino, I'll try to give some detail concerning project type without saying too much about the clients project, still in the design phase, in a public forum.

Multi-building Apartment complex.
Normal sorts of plan sets required.
Storm, Sanitary, erosion control,, grading, dimension, intersection improvement plans, etc.
Not exactly single family subdivision plans that the product was focused on.

Back to the strength and weakness question.
Strengths; project took us to all of the corners of the software, styles developed somewhere around a hundred, plus this sort of project is what we do best.
Weaknesses; really tests the pain threshold, like taking a graduate course in Civil 3D your freshman year.

Couple of notes on how rapidly this product, C3D, is changing.
Our first training was using 2007 Beta 3.
Advanced training was with 2007 release product.
Turned out to be too unstable to proceed.
Called timeout until SP1 was released.
Trained up the project team on SP1 and started project design.
Started running into more problems and had some input into SP2.
Installed SP2 and drove forward.
Many problems addressed, but many remained.
Submitted project for review.
After initial submittal we had a surprise visit from a gentleman from Manchester.
He came out to visit the frontlines, talk to the people that filled out the flaming CER's, and to further address our issues.
He looked the CEO in the eyes and told him that 80 per cent of our problems would be fixed in 2 weeks.
4 days later I downloaded SP3 Beta 2.
It runs like a champ.

If I have gone beyond the bounds of what should be posted in a public forum I apologize.
Don't expect a visitor to your site.
Happened to us by a strange confluence of events.
But it goes to what I mentioned earlier that the code developers are interested in seeing the product succeed and are willing to work to see that it does.

sinc

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2006, 08:05:51 AM »
But it goes to what I mentioned earlier that the code developers are interested in seeing the product succeed and are willing to work to see that it does.

Based on what you are saying, Autodesk has really jumped the gun on trying to force people into Civil-3D.  They raised the price of C3D Companion from $300 to $2000 at the beginning of the year, in an effort to force people into switching.

As near as I can tell, that price increase was just complete gouging of the Autodesk user base, because Civil-3D was NOT ready for deployment.  That's the part that has us most upset - they're charging us a premium for staying on the old software, but the new software is too buggy to use...

Dinosaur

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2006, 01:16:39 PM »
Sinc, did you ever try to work with 2005 Civil 3D?  Talk about not ready for deployment!  But even then I heard of a few projects go out using it for the streets and grading.
What I am waiting to hear of is a regular old 30 or 40 lot single family subdivision using Civil 3D for streets, storm and sanitary.  That is when I will know for certain Civil 3D is "ready".  If something like that can be designed, go through the approval process, staked, built and as-built all in Civil 3D, the LDT holdouts had better get up to speed fast.
John, your project sounds like the big brother to our latest best effort - 49 single family cluster homes mostly in pods of 5 each crammed into a 6.8 acre triangle bounded by developed property and right-of-way.  We had high runoff from this extra density compounded by very heavy flows from upstream through already undersized system.
All of this has now reached the construction staking phase after starting life in Civil 3D 2005, converting to LDT and restarting almost from scratch with Civil 3D 2006.  Only the storm sewer plans are not in Civil 3D, but there was no platting required, only easement dedication.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2006, 06:12:04 PM »
I think the thing that has me most-worried at this point is the Zero-Layer thing.

We REALLY REALLY need to be able to send design surveys to engineers who are still using LDD.  If we can't control the layers things end up on after being converted to LDD, I see BIG problems ahead...   :-o

jpostlewait

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2006, 08:30:16 PM »
Couple of things Sinc.

1. discussion of Autodesk subscription pricing or new seat purchasing is forever banned from this thread.

I will be more than happy to contribute to a thread concerning Why my business HAS to pay a thousand bucks a seat to convert one license to another. Those jackals are in California and get paid more than the guys in Manchester.

2. >>We REALLY REALLY need to be able to send design surveys to engineers who are still using LDD.  If we can't control the layers things end up on after being converted to LDD, I see BIG problems ahead...<<

Where are you located?
The guys we get files from could give a rat's *ss what layer anything is on.

I agree than the inter-operability is going to be a problem.
Currently the process of sharing files with other agency's , be they private or public, is clumsy and time consuming.
Throw Vault into the mix and the whole concept of collaboration becomes unworkable. or barely workable, or maybe if we got any budget left workable.

As the entire world moves toward the Marketing concept of Collaboration, C3D throws Vault into the mix.

Funny story.
In my implantation teams meeting with our visitor from Manchester, after introductions and opening remarks, floor was open for questions.
One of my newer users, smart kid been here 2-3 years with a lot of game,
says, " What were you thinking when.......".
Brought down the house.
If I remember correctly had to do with the default contour label precision of the nearest hundredth.
Anybody out there ever issued a contour map to the nearest hundredth?

Later guys.
I hope I'm helping somebody.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2006, 08:46:09 PM »
Well, I did draw an as-built grading detail of a dead flat cul-de-sac at 5 scale and 0.2' contours about 16 years ago.  It did at least prove that the water would actually go away in about 3 days.  Of course that was Denver and most of it would be evaporated.
The guy from Manchester must have looked like a deer frozen in headlights when that question fired up. The number of endings for that start is huge.
The whole collaboration and layer thing doesn't bother me very much.  We don't trade drawings very often and I never send anything out and expect to open returned to me and start working.  We don't send to anyone with LDT or Civil 3D.  They don't need drawings with that stuff in them so it will all be exploded.  If we ever get a drawing back for something, I bring in their contributed work via a MAP query or wblock into my original of the copy I sent them.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2006, 08:13:25 AM »
Couple of things Sinc.

1. discussion of Autodesk subscription pricing or new seat purchasing is forever banned from this thread.

I will be more than happy to contribute to a thread concerning Why my business HAS to pay a thousand bucks a seat to convert one license to another. Those jackals are in California and get paid more than the guys in Manchester.

I don't understand this.  My whole point was that Autodesk started increasing prices in March in an effort to "encourage" people to switch.  They did not provide usable software, but they instituted the price increase anyway.  That is unethical, in my mind.  THAT is the point I was trying to make.  I don't really care what the price is, or how much it costs to convert.  I care that they are penalizing people for refusing to switch from software that works to software that doesn't work.

If SP3 is as good as you say, then it would have made sense for them to start the price increases with the 2008 version.  But NOT the 2007.

Quote

Where are you located?
The guys we get files from could give a rat's *ss what layer anything is on.


Yeah, I've heard people dis surveyors a lot, and complain how worthless they are with Autocad.  Evidently, we take pride in NOT being worthless...   :wink:

Look at it this way.  Do you LIKE getting everything on random layers?  If you were used to receiving nice, clean, easy-to-use drawings, how would you feel if you suddenly started getting garbage?  And when you tried to find out why everything suddenly turned to garbage, the answer is "We switched to Autodesk's new product..."

We've already been having enough problems caused by the fact that LDD 2007 is incompatible with earlier versions.  That has been a MAJOR hassel, but we've gotten used to dealing with it.  It's possible we'll just get used to what we have to do with Civil-3D.  But that doesn't mean we'll like it.   :-(

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2006, 08:04:24 PM »
>>  don't understand this.  My whole point was that Autodesk started increasing prices in March in an effort to "encourage" people to switch.  They did not provide usable software, but they instituted the price increase anyway.  That is unethical, in my mind.  THAT is the point I was trying to make.  I don't really care what the price is, or how much it costs to convert.  I care that they are penalizing people for refusing to switch from software that works to software that doesn't work.<<
Actually this started some years ago.
My subscription agreement is up at the end of January.
The release cycle starts in April.
I have been extended the privilege of paying next years rate at a time when the only thing that is available is this years product.
The first time I got stabbed on paying for C3D development was when the product I had contained the caveat that it was not released for production, but I got to pay another hundred bucks a seat because the next release would be ready to use.
They were talking about 2005.

[whistle: Referee calls rule violation for discussing off topic issues.]
My purpose on this thread was to try to tell people that the product is getting tantalizingly close to what it was supposed to be. And maybe, just maybe, this could be the time to jump.

And I don't disparage surveyors, I used to drive the truck.
I can still throw a chain and I know how to use a right angle prism, and if you need your hand level adjusted I can still do that.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:05:31 PM by jpostlewait »

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2006, 09:40:16 PM »
.
I can still throw a chain and I know how to use a right angle prism, and if you need your hand level adjusted I can still do that.

What's a chain?   :-D

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2006, 06:34:23 PM »
Been a few days since my last rant.
Evidently I haven't learned any lessons. :-o

Been busy with my real job of working in the Information Systems Group.
Lots going on there.
My MEP group is transitioning into Building Systems, finally.
My Archies are trying to implement Revit.
We are moving our servers over to a VMware Virtual server.
IE 7 is now a critical update.
We have been running it a while, not much difference for the regular user.
Vista and Office 2007 are due out soon.

Back to the Civil 3D front.
SP3 was published late yesterday.
Download it and install it.
Or being the sceptic that I am wait a week and check the message boards.
My end users have been running a Beta on a live project and wouldn't have it any other way.
Needless to say running Beta on a live project is not for the faint of heart.
Vault performance increased tremendously.
Data shortcuts back.
So you can implement without having to go through Vault.
We are still facing some issues with the Beta product, but they are greatly reduced on an order of magnitude.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2006, 11:59:40 PM »
I'm glad your back posting this saga John, there is still a lot left to tell.  I am also curious how are your archies dealing with Revit.  From what I can tell, it seems like a much easier change from ADT to Revit than it is from LDT to Civil 3D.  At least I see a lot more archies crowing about how great Revit is than civil engineers fawning over marvels of Civil 3D.

. . . SP3 was published late yesterday.
Download it and install it.
Or being the sceptic that I am wait a week and check the message boards.
My end users have been running a Beta on a live project and wouldn't have it any other way.
Needless to say running Beta on a live project is not for the faint of heart.
Vault performance increased tremendously.
Data shortcuts back.
So you can implement without having to go through Vault.
We are still facing some issues with the Beta product, but they are greatly reduced on an order of magnitude.
Late I guess . . . I snagged a copy about 9:30 last night.  I think they posted SP2 about the same time.  Perhaps they are hoping to give themselves at least a weekend off before the multitude start complaining about something still not fixed or a broken favorite command.  I noticed also that they seem to have learned a lesson about making sure any warnings are easy to spot on the download page.  For the record, if you are using Vault you need to update that BEFORE you apply SP3 and yes, it is going to break Google Earth, so that will have to be updated as well.  There are also two different downloads - one for the locked version of Civil 3D and one for the unlocked version.  I would think it prudent to check for which one you need before applying the service pack.

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2006, 07:07:44 PM »
Well got everything downloaded and installed.
The machines running sp3 beta had to be uninstalled and reinstalled.
Those systems with sp2 only had to be updated.
Ran the Vault patch first on all of the systems before sp3.
Except for mine, I forgot, installed it afterward and it appeared to go on o.k.
My guys busy trying to get the styles creation farther along.
Still working on getting the documentation put together.

Seems like this time around the land desktop sp may have some problems.
Keep an eye on the Autodesk discussion groups in regards to this. Couple of pretty smart guys have run into some problems and don't have the answers yet.
May just be confined to their situation but it's only day 1.

Pilot project back in the garage for redesign.
Lots of changes and we are going to readjust the process.
Going to take another shot at running a corridor through the parking lots as many of the design restraints that gave us trouble are no longer present.
Plus when we ran into those problems it was SP1A and now we have SP3 to run with.

Kind of cool watching my pilot team learning how to walk. They are getting pretty good at this. Eavesdropped on a conversation between 3 of them discussing what needed to be a parent style and what needed to be a child.
I knew who to call to find out, but they were doing a good job of figuring it out and that is how you learn.

Thanks Bud for teaching them how to think.

They are getting pretty good at it.