Author Topic: Name That Road Block  (Read 9006 times)

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Dinosaur

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Name That Road Block
« on: September 18, 2006, 11:20:40 PM »
I met two friends for the first time tonight.  As what commonly happens when people meet and talk, the conversation turned to something they all have in common.  Tonight the common ground was working with and implementing Civil 3D into our respective workplaces and one topic stood out for me more than the rest.  The conversation turned to the necessity of work arounds - having to supplement the drawings where what we need just can't be done through Civil 3D.  This is my personal roadblock with full implementation.  I can defy my boss and work with the program no matter what he says; I put my job on the line every time I fire it up, but I can't set for hours trying to hammer something out the program isn't able to perform.  I can not and will not attempt to make a plat that will meet local minimum standards using Civil 3D.  Parcel segment labeling is still not ready to show both measured and deeded or platted courses.  There are some convoluted work arounds I could try, but the results will still be some non Civil 3D labels.  It is quicker and easier for me to avoid the problem and just use an alternate method for all of my plat and survey labeling.
I think that there are several roadblocks out there that are stopping or at least hindering the acceptance of Civil 3D and I would like to hear some more.  NOT to have a good old fashioned gripe and whine session, but to see if a reasonable list could be assembled of what Autodesk needs to add to Civil 3D to help it gain acceptance.  Perhaps there may even be some work arounds that others are willing to share.  With all of the increased activity in Land Lubber lately there is no telling who may be dropping by, tonight for instance both of my companions have been wading TheSwamp waters lately and both have the ear of some Autodesk managers.
So please, what is YOUR Civil 3D roadblock?

MMccall

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 11:27:21 AM »
I've been using C3d since Jan. 2005 for everything. I have the companion software but I don't know how to use it so my choice is either figure out a way to get it gone in C3d or fake it with some Autocad primitives.  I've been using primitives less and less to get things done but site grading is still a jambing up the works.

For a subdivision the current work flow is that I provide engineering with a horizontal layout plan, road profiles and grading in the roadways via corridor surfaces. Engineering gives me back a 'carmine red' marked up plan with lot grading, drainage basin and drainage system. I input the drainage system as a pipe network, the basin as polylines and create a surface from those lines for use in drainage system profiles and what not. The lot grading goes in as just polylines.

For a commercial site the process is fairly similar. The only difference is that sometimes there is no need for a corridor and the site (parking lot) grading goes in as feature lines with elevations applied at locations per the 'carmine red' markup. A parking lot surface is built from the feature lines for profile use but the contours used on the finished plans are just polylines. Spot grades are framed mtext with leaders.

I'd hoped to be able to take the design further along in C3d with complete final surfaces with spot grades and contours based on the surface. Unfortunately, most of the time the feature line grading either blows up in my face, produces bad results or no solution. 2007 may be better at this but its still generating complaints and I'm having a hard time paying the subscription fee and buy into more 'potentially' good software.


On the parcel segment labelling issue. 2007 has those kewl new expressions that could be used in a segment label to handle a consistent bearing conversion to another north orientation. I've also used the segment 'description' as part of a segment label so I could incorporate segment specific information into the label.


Another road block I can think of is having qualified users with enough functioning brain cells to run this software properly.

Dent Cermak

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2006, 12:59:54 PM »
I've been using C3d since Jan. 2005 for everything. I have the companion software but I don't know how to use it so my choice is either figure out a way to get it gone in C3d or fake it with some Autocad primitives.  I've been using primitives less and less to get things done but site grading is still a jambing up the works.

For a subdivision the current work flow is that I provide engineering with a horizontal layout plan, road profiles and grading in the roadways via corridor surfaces. Engineering gives me back a 'carmine red' marked up plan with lot grading, drainage basin and drainage system. I input the drainage system as a pipe network, the basin as polylines and create a surface from those lines for use in drainage system profiles and what not. The lot grading goes in as just polylines.

For a commercial site the process is fairly similar. The only difference is that sometimes there is no need for a corridor and the site (parking lot) grading goes in as feature lines with elevations applied at locations per the 'carmine red' markup. A parking lot surface is built from the feature lines for profile use but the contours used on the finished plans are just polylines. Spot grades are framed mtext with leaders.

I'd hoped to be able to take the design further along in C3d with complete final surfaces with spot grades and contours based on the surface. Unfortunately, most of the time the feature line grading either blows up in my face, produces bad results or no solution. 2007 may be better at this but its still generating complaints and I'm having a hard time paying the subscription fee and buy into more 'potentially' good software.


On the parcel segment labelling issue. 2007 has those kewl new expressions that could be used in a segment label to handle a consistent bearing conversion to another north orientation. I've also used the segment 'description' as part of a segment label so I could incorporate segment specific information into the label.


Another road block I can think of is having qualified users with enough functioning brain cells to run this software properly.




ZING!! DEAD DINO IN THE DIRT!!

MMccall

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2006, 01:47:02 PM »
I didn't mean that last statement as a dig or insult to Dino. I only meant that the skill level required to drive the software may cause some staff turn over as some users won't 'get it' and some will be too resistant to change. It's sink or swim, some will sink. Most days I'm just treading water.

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2006, 01:57:14 PM »
I didn't mean that last statement as a dig or insult to Dino. I only meant that the skill level required to drive the software may cause some staff turn over as some users won't 'get it' and some will be too resistant to change. It's sink or swim, some will sink. Most days I'm just treading water.
And none was taken . . . you have mentioned one of the major obstacles Civil 3D faces in trying to gain acceptance.  What makes this more serious is that it seems the more well versed a designer / technician is with Land Desktop, the more difficult the transition to Civil 3D becomes.

Mark

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2006, 02:02:09 PM »
I didn't mean that last statement as a dig or insult to Dino. I only meant that the skill level required to drive the software may cause some staff turn over as some users won't 'get it' and some will be too resistant to change.

Dent knew what you meant, he was just trying to get a rise out of ya. :-)  The more you hang out in theswamp the more you'll come to appreciate Dent, he is a very comical individual. At the same time Mr. Dent can be a great resource of knowledge on many subjects other than surveying.
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Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2006, 02:13:51 PM »
At the same time Mr. Dent can be a great resource of knowledge on many subjects other than surveying.

And you said that with a straight face Mr. Thomas?

WOW!

Jeff_M

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2006, 02:36:30 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my biggest roadblocks are 1.) Lack of training,  2.) Severe LDT mindset that must be retrained, and 3.)The need for me to continue providing drawings to consultants, contractors, clients in LDT3 format (Yes, we have sloooowwww movers in Northern California.....the surveyor that does 90% of the staking on our projects is still using R14/S8)

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2006, 02:54:24 PM »
Why does it feel like if someone does not upgrade, they are considered out of date?

Jeff_M

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2006, 03:28:59 PM »
Why does it feel like if someone does not upgrade, they are considered out of date?
Why do you use WinXP-SP2? Win98 works pretty well.....

Why do use DataCad Version 11? That's the most recent, isn't it?

The rest of us want to get our projects done better & faster, which the new tools allow us to do (once these new tools are learned & mastered). When they are languishing back in the bronze age with their tools of choice, it makes us spend some of that time we saved to be able to provide them with a usable product.  If I can demonstrate to them that I can do the exact same job as them, in 2/3 the time, and they still refuse to upgrade? Yeah, I can say they are out of date......

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2006, 03:37:35 PM »
Oh so those that use LD3 don't want to move to a program that, from the sounds of it, really never was ready for public release.  Has a learning time and curve that most companies can not spend time and money on else they go out of business for not getting their work done.  And probably costs an arm and a leg that, guess what, not everyone can afford!

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2006, 03:43:32 PM »
Why do you use WinXP-SP2? Win98 works pretty well.....

Why do use DataCad Version 11? That's the most recent, isn't it?

Company computer...no choice on the version of the OS.  I use what I can get for free.

DataCAD Version 11...yeah and the most recent update to it, because it's free.  If I get a CAD package for home, I'd probably go with DataCAD LT.  Cheaper and does what I need it to do.  Google SketchUp, free version.  Does what I need it to do.

Until I built my own computer (over a year ago now) I was on a machine that I bought in 96 and ran Windows 95.  Thing worked fine.


I'm saying, don't slam blast a company that doesn't have the lastest and greatest when you don't know the reason they don't upgrade.  Course you probabl think they do it just to bug you out of spite.

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2006, 04:11:20 PM »
I over stepped myself.  I shouldn't have said a lot of the things I did.

I am sorry to Jeff and those that had to read a rant that shouldn't have been here.

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2006, 05:08:23 PM »
. . . a program that, from the sounds of it, really never was ready for public release.  Has a learning time and curve that most companies can not spend time and money on else they go out of business for not getting their work done.  And probably costs an arm and a leg that, guess what, not everyone can afford!
I think you have provided some very valid points here, Greg.

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2006, 05:15:47 PM »
Thank you Dino...

I felt bad about ranting because as I discussed this with a friend, my comments were based on incomplete information.  My information is from what people have posted here at the swamp.  While this information is good, it does not mean I can get as snippity as I did.

Jeff_M

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2006, 05:35:35 PM »
Greg, I think that you also misinterpreted what I was saying, but I can see why since I really didn't explain it fully.

My gripe with those that haven't upgraded is more towards those that are still using anything prior to LDT3, as that is what most of my work is still done in. Yes, I have C3D2007 but I have yet to learn it well enough to even think about using for full time use......hence my roadblock item #1 & #2. Item #3 is more of a direct result of the first 2....if I really wanted to (or could) use C3D I would, in a heart beat, because what I have been able to use just knocks the socks off anything LDT can do. But, alas, I must point you back to those items 1 & 2..... :(

Oh, and I enjoy reading your rants. It often times does give me a different perspective. However, this one survey company that flat refuses to move into the new century, I have worked with/for for almost 30 years. I KNOW their financial situation and mindset. Shoot, the financial doesn't even come into play because they are on subscription so they HAVE the software, they just refuse to use it because what they've been using works for them....nevermind the rest of the world must jump through hoops to get drawings to them. I get at least one email a week from them asking me to convert a newer drawing back down to R14 for them. So yeah, again, I think they are out of date.......to emphasize this, their 'bookkeeping' software for their billing & proposals expired in 1988 so 2 of their 3 computers all provide drawings dated sometime 1988 in order for them tp keep using said software......  :|
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 05:36:46 PM by Jeff_M »

LE

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2006, 05:41:07 PM »
Greg, I think that you also misinterpreted what I was saying, but I can see why since I really didn't explain it fully.

My gripe with those that haven't upgraded is more towards those that are still using anything prior to LDT3, as that is what most of my work is still done in. Yes, I have C3D2007 but I have yet to learn it well enough to even think about using for full time use......hence my roadblock item #1 & #2. Item #3 is more of a direct result of the first 2....if I really wanted to (or could) use C3D I would, in a heart beat, because what I have been able to use just knocks the socks off anything LDT can do. But, alas, I must point you back to those items 1 & 2..... :(

Oh, and I enjoy reading your rants. It often times does give me a different perspective. However, this one survey company that flat refuses to move into the new century, I have worked with/for for almost 30 years. I KNOW their financial situation and mindset. Shoot, the financial doesn't even come into play because they are on subscription so they HAVE the software, they just refuse to use it because what they've been using works for them....nevermind the rest of the world must jump through hoops to get drawings to them. I get at least one email a week from them asking me to convert a newer drawing back down to R14 for them. So yeah, again, I think they are out of date.......to emphasize this, their 'bookkeeping' software for their billing & proposals expired in 1988 so 2 of their 3 computers all provide drawings dated sometime 1988 in order for them tp keep using said software......  :|

WOW ! - rock & roll - that's what I call progress...... [not related at all: the first light bulbes were able to work for 30 years.....] - excuse the intromission

LE

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2006, 06:03:53 PM »
And just to put some dots over the i's... in Latin America and basically Mexico, the C3D application has very little acceptance and worst sales.

People from AutoDesk has asked his competition to write their modules (from the competition) base on the C3D platform... in order to make it available.

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2006, 09:43:59 PM »
 :realmad:   :realmad:   :realmad: . . .

NOTE FROM DINOSAUR

These are actual quotes slightly edited for content.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 08:55:25 PM by DinØsaur »

Greg B

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2006, 09:57:14 PM »
Jeff,

Thanks for the information!

Maverick®

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2006, 08:39:11 AM »
Dats a lotta uh.... "smileys"  Dino.    :-D

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2006, 08:51:17 AM »
They aren't "smileys" when they are coming out of his mouth.  The air turns a DEEP shade of blue!  :lmao:

Dent Cermak

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2006, 09:01:54 AM »
Here we go again and I am getting confused again. BUT that is a natural state of events so it's cool.
Here we are saying that Civil3d may be the "Be All - End All" for engineers, but it leaves us surveyors and mappers hanging in the wind. Then our august friends from Civil3D.com come on and say "No, No, we can do it and we can show you how.".
Do you suppose that the previously identified "Lack of training" may be the culprit. Are we trying to make civil3D be LDD?
I have Acad2007/civil3d on the shelf. Before I load it, it may be a good idea to get Bigbossman to spring for the bucks for the training CD's. (My apologies to the guys that hire out for training classes, but you only tell me ONCE. As you know, telling me anything once, is not enough. I forget what I do not use for more than 15 minutes. Terminal CRS.)
I would highly rec comend the training CD's from AGT. Even I can understand them. And you can train a bunch of folks with them.
I wish those that come in here telling us that we are missing something would fill in the voids. I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I realize some make their living doing this, but an occasional hint would be nice. And who knows, if you show me that you can get your points across to me, then maybe I can get Bigbossman to send me to one of your training classes.

Jeff_M

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2006, 10:33:21 AM »
And who knows, if you show me that you can get your points across to me, then maybe I can get Bigbossman to send me to one of your training classes.
Hi Dent,
I'm not one of those that makes a living off the software, I'm just trying to make a living using it. For surveying, this may be of interest to you: Survey Demo

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2006, 11:02:37 PM »
Great, y'all liked this topic more than I thought you might.  There are some very good responses in here now, but there must be a few more specific things Civil 3D does or doesn't do while you are working with it that seems to just shut the door on going further with it. 
Here is a brand new issue I get to start figuring out first thing Monday.  It goes under the general heading of the absurd reviewer comments that need to be addressed no matter what your design software wants to do.
The agency reviewing the sanitary sewer plans for my newest Civil 3D project has a new requirement that must be addressed on the profile section of our plans.  I am sure that there is some rational use for the information, but it affects the basic design of the sewer and I have no idea how to get the required information or how to even be sure that my design will meet  the criteria.  In addition to a normal design with the drop of the pipe inverts shown in the center of the structure and slopes calculated accordingly, I also must show the elevations of the pipe inverts at the manhole walls and the difference in elevation can not exceed 0.50 feet.  At this point I still need to confirm if they want this information based on the inside or outside face of the structure.  I think this MIGHT be possible with an expression in 2007, but this must remain in 2006.

MMccall

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2006, 11:04:41 AM »
With 2006 being the first implementation of pipes there aren't too many options. All I can come up with is placing some profile view labels at the locations where the pipe and structure walls intersect and then some linear dimensions (scale set at 0.1) to check/note the in/out total drop.  Unfortunately you'd have to place each one of these manually and without the benefit of snapping to these locations. (just zoom and eyeball it)

2007 could probably do better by using an expression to calc. the invert based on the pipe slope and a static distance from the end, and also calc. the vertical difference of the two.

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2006, 10:44:34 PM »
Thanks MMcall, I guess I will be testing that theory sooner rather than later with THESE recent developments.  I can feel a lot of new questions begging to be posted hopefully with some discoveries to share.

Mark

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2006, 08:03:45 AM »
Dino

How is the memory usage in 07? Is it still the hog 06 is?
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Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2006, 12:38:06 PM »
Dino

How is the memory usage in 07? Is it still the hog 06 is?

I have an empty 2007 drawing that has been setting on idle for about 5 minutes and the memory usage shows about 235k and steady.

Jeff_M

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2006, 02:47:08 PM »
Here's a pic of my memery usage. The first acad.exe instance is LDT3 with a drawing that mimics the one open in the second acad.exe which is C3D2007. The drawing is of a project: 22 acres, 171 lots, 13 alignments & profiles, 2 surfaces and 1 corridor that comes in at ~4mb.

I've noticed that the memory stays real close to this no matter how long I'm in the drawing, EXCEPT when I'm about to witness the funny little message box that contains those 2 words that we all dread.....FATAL ERROR.  Fortunately, I see that only once or twice every couple days, and it is most always preceded by me doing something that I know I shouldn't have.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 02:48:24 PM by Jeff_M »

Dinosaur

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 08:18:44 PM »
Here is one that has been a major pain in my keester all along with Civil 3D and is just as bad with 2007 . . . It bit Mark last week with his points . . .

LAYERS . . . and the management thereof

Civil 3D seems almost to have changed the rules on how to use and manage layers.  It comes out of the box now with templates having a variety of themes to choose from, but even this is little help after you quit playing and start creating objects.  The template layers are OK but within the drawing are a variety of ways to sabotage your scheme.  There are default layers to keep an eye on in the drawing settings tab - some with a layer name and others specifying Layer 0 for various objects.  As you dig deeper, you find styles of objects and their labels with layer names shown in the display properties and if that object is contained within another object, any layer specified for that one may also cause trouble.  The objects also have settings in their creation mode where a default layer may also be  specified.  Finally, within the command settings, there is also a means to assign a default layer on which to create the object.  Another means to complicate this further is to drag and drop a really nifty style from a different drawing along with whatever default layer was tried in the original drawing.  So here is a real witches brew of layering conventions that almost certainly contain conflicts of named layers and "0" layer and an almost certain carpshoot as to what layer your object will carry when it finally displays on screen and the fun really starts when you want to plot or manipulate them in an xref.
I have no idea what the best way to approach the layering.  The old standby ctb system of plotting by color seems to be more of a hurdle than learning how to make stb files work in a style based drawing.

sinc

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Re: Name That Road Block
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2006, 09:11:30 PM »
Here is one that has been a major pain in my keester all along with Civil 3D and is just as bad with 2007 . . . It bit Mark last week with his points . . .

LAYERS . . . and the management thereof


I've been thinking for a while that Autodesk needs to completely revamp layers.  It will cause tons of grief, even more than the INSUNITS and CUI things put together, but it seems like things are hitting an "unmanageable" point.

I haven't dug deeply enough into Civil-3D to hit many of the problems (although I've seen a bit of them).  But I've been running into many similar issues in Land Desktop.  We've been implementing standards more and more, and have hit the point where we need to be able to define multiple standards.  Autocad currently does not support multiple standards; it leaves it up to the user to keep track of everything.  The job of administering several concurrent standards also is something of a nightmare.

I've been noticing that much of the issues arise from the way Autocad uses layer names as the "key" for layers.  Since the same layer may have one name in one standard and a different name in another standard, this complicates things.  It especially makes it difficult to administer things like Land Desktop Description Keys.

I've been thinking about what would happen if layers were keyed by something like a "layer role" or "layer purpose".  A bunch of these "roles" would come preconfigured with any vertical like Land Desktop or Civil-3D.  For example, there would be a "role" that would be "Parcel Labels", or the default layer for parcels.  This layer could have different names, for example, in one standard it might be "PARCEL-TXT", in another it might be "V-SURV-ANNO", or whatever.  So, we would have an interface that would let us create "Standards".  Then we would be able to look at all our "layer roles", and key in a "layer name" for each "Standard".

This would fix a whole bunch of issues.  For example, as things are right now, the user may have a base drawing XREF'd into a whole bunch of other drawings.  The Container drawings all have VISRETAIN set to 1, and layer properties have been set in various ways in the various drawings.  For example, imagine a particular boundary layer exists in the base drawing with a CONTINUOUS linetype and a lineweight of .35mm.  This base drawing is XREF'd into three other drawings, all of which have VISRETAIN set to 1.  In one Container drawing, the boundary layer is frozen, and doesn't display; in the second Container drawing, the boundary layer has the linetype set to HIDDEN; and in the third, the lineweight is set to .60mm.  Now imagine that the user needs to change the name of the boudary layer in the base drawing.  Once the layer name changes, the VISRETAIN settings in the Container drawings are useless.  So now the boundary line shows up as a CONTINOUS line with lineweight of .35mm in all three Container drawings, and the user has to fix all three drawings.

Another issue it would fix is the "default look" of layers.  The drawing would have to maintain a link to the template that created the drawing.  But consider the case where the user has purged unused layers from a drawing, then starts adding more objects.  For example, the user creates a new surface and adds contours.  Under the current behavior, Autocad will create the layers for the countours, but they will be created with Default lineweight, CONTINUOUS linetype, and color WHITE.  If Autocad maintained a link to the template, then it could check the template for the layers, and create them with the correct properties, instead of the default CONTINUOUS/Default Lineweight/WHITE.

This would also fix problems with current "Standards".  For example, we currently do work for the US Air Force Academy, and have to use their standards (modified ISO standards).  These standards are extremely weak.  For us (surveyors), it means nearly everything we do is supposed to go on one of a handful of layers, and nearly all the layers are either yellow, red, or magenta.  This make it extremely hard to work in a drawing.  If Autocad had coherent support for multiple standards, we would be able to work in our "company" standards, and then "export" the final drawing to the AFA's standards.

Obviously, there's still things to think about.  It would be imperitive that the new system was not overly complicated, and adding another layer of abstraction (which is basically what this is) increases complexity.  But I think there's an awesome, easy-to-use "system that works" hidden in there somewhere...