TheSwamp

Code Red => AutoLISP (Vanilla / Visual) => Topic started by: kenkrupa on July 01, 2010, 11:08:11 AM

Title: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 01, 2010, 11:08:11 AM
I have avoided VLIDE all this time, having something else (Codewright, highly customized) that would do everything I wanted without needing to think about it. However, it was a 16-bit version that does not work in Win7(64-bit). So I need to bite the bullet and change. The question is, change to what? VLIDE has some nice capabilities that I've been missing out on (but have been doing without quite nicely), but it lacks some features that were very important to me (customizable key-stroke shortcuts, custom macros, etc.). Does anyone have any suggestions of something better than VLIDE?
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 11:14:13 AM
Vim (You will never want again).
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 11:21:53 AM
Notepad++ (You will never want again).   :-D
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 11:24:49 AM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".


:D
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: highflyingbird on July 01, 2010, 11:25:46 AM
FlexEdit ,maybe it's a good choice.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: alanjt on July 01, 2010, 11:32:30 AM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".


:D
You just saved me creating an entire thread. Now I know where to get my crap.  :lmao:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 11:33:14 AM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".


:D

 :lmao:


I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: alanjt on July 01, 2010, 11:35:19 AM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".


:D

 :lmao:


I like it a lot.
Crap, Notepad++ or both? If you follow John, you can get a two-for-one with Notepad++.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 11:36:53 AM
Yep!
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: It's Alive! on July 01, 2010, 11:46:53 AM
lisplink
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
Well if you guys are not gonna take this post serious: What about LispPAD?




I'm being sarcastic. :D
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: alanjt on July 01, 2010, 11:59:05 AM
Well if you guys are not gonna take this post serious: What about LispPAD?




I'm being sarcastic. :D
Psh, just use Notepad.  :roll:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Hangman on July 01, 2010, 12:04:13 PM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".

:D
You just saved me creating an entire thread. Now I know where to get my crap.  :lmao:

No wonder my code is crap, I use Notepad++ for most all of my editing.   :wink:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 12:04:40 PM
lisplink

Another great editor.  I used to use this but it does $.  and there is the volume serial registration.  Mike is very nice when you call for a new code.  I like the view dialog, great for us who still code .dcl
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 12:05:15 PM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".

:D
You just saved me creating an entire thread. Now I know where to get my crap.  :lmao:

No wonder my code is crap, I use Notepad++ for most all of my editing.   :wink:

That must be my problem also...  :roll:  :-P
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: alanjt on July 01, 2010, 12:06:26 PM
All this talk and I still just use VLIDE.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 12:07:28 PM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".

:D
You just saved me creating an entire thread. Now I know where to get my crap.  :lmao:

No wonder my code is crap, I use Notepad++ for most all of my editing.   :wink:

That must be my problem also...  :roll:  :-P
See? Now you're getting it.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 01, 2010, 12:09:00 PM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".

:D
You just saved me creating an entire thread. Now I know where to get my crap.  :lmao:

No wonder my code is crap, I use Notepad++ for most all of my editing.   :wink:

That must be my problem also...  :roll:  :-P
See? Now you're getting it.



Thanks for setting me straight.  :ugly:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Bob Wahr on July 01, 2010, 12:33:36 PM
And for all that, I can't remember the last time I saw
Quote
Thanks Se8en, that code does exactly what I needed!
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 12:46:00 PM
And for all that, I can't remember the last time I saw
Quote
Thanks Se8en, that code does exactly what I needed!
*blink-blink* *GACK!* What-da?

Thats because I'm just ahead of my time.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Hangman on July 01, 2010, 01:17:50 PM
OK, so seriously ...
Why are you Se7en, so adamant about using VIM ??

I do use Notepad++ simply because I still need to exercise my brain in the layout of the code.  I enjoy putting the code together by hand rather than cut and paste from other sources.  Granted I run into a lot of errors and I feel at times I am not progressing in my learning, but all the same I like writing code.
How would VIM help in the progress and learning of writing code ??  Another words, sell it to me.  I am open to finding a better editor than what I am using, but I don't know the value of these other editors yet.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: deegeecees on July 01, 2010, 01:30:00 PM
[superhero narrator]"Grammar Man swoops down to help another grammatically challenged citizen in need!"[/superhero narrator]

<snip> ...writing code ?? In >space< other words, sell it to... <snip>

[Grammar Man] "Your welcome kind sir. Now keep that grammar clean and correct!" [/Grammar Man]

Slow day at the office...

 :lol:


BTW, I use regular ole Notepad.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Matt__W on July 01, 2010, 01:32:41 PM
BTW, I use regular ole Notepad.
So do I.


(not that I code anymore)
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Hangman on July 01, 2010, 01:35:34 PM
[superhero narrator]"Grammar Man swoops down to help another grammatically challenged citizen in need!"[/superhero narrator]

<snip> ...writing code ?? In >space< other words, sell it to... <snip>

[Grammar Man] "Your welcome kind sir. Now keep that grammar clean and correct!" [/Grammar Man]

Slow day at the office...

 :lol:

BTW, I use regular ole Notepad.

Oh, thank you Grammar Man, what would I have done without you ??  You are my Hero !!  :-D

What is an "ole Notepad" ??
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: deegeecees on July 01, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
Sorry, even GM can slip up at times.

ole is slang for old. ie. Good ole boys, etc.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: deegeecees on July 01, 2010, 01:38:24 PM
Do not confuse Grammar Man with the Spelling Natzi, lest we all get Krushoed.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Matt__W on July 01, 2010, 01:38:54 PM
Sorry, even GM can slip up at times.

ole is slang for old. ie. Good ole boys, etc.
I thought it was ol'.  Ole... isn't that related to images?   :roll:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: deegeecees on July 01, 2010, 01:48:12 PM
Sorry, even GM can slip up at times.

ole is slang for old. ie. Good ole boys, etc.
I thought it was ol'.  Ole... isn't that related to images?   :roll:

..and Bullfighting, although they don't actually FIGHT the bulls, they try to avoid that...
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 01, 2010, 03:43:17 PM
OK UltraEdit for me. 8-)
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 01, 2010, 05:35:03 PM

UltraEdit and VLIDE
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: gile on July 01, 2010, 05:53:34 PM
VLIDE
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 01, 2010, 06:06:33 PM
Yes I should have mentioned VLIDE too.
I often have both open & edit in both jumping from one to the other.
UltraEdit has the power & I need the Column Mode while VLIDE has the LISP specific tools.
You just need to save before jumping to the other & it will load the saved version.
Best of both worlds. :)
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 06:19:48 PM
OK, so seriously ...
Why are you Se7en, so adamant about using VIM ??

I do use Notepad++ simply because I still need to exercise my brain in the layout of the code.  I enjoy putting the code together by hand rather than cut and paste from other sources.  Granted I run into a lot of errors and I feel at times I am not progressing in my learning, but all the same I like writing code.
How would VIM help in the progress and learning of writing code ??  Another words, sell it to me.  I am open to finding a better editor than what I am using, but I don't know the value of these other editors yet.

I don't have a lot of time right now but real quick...
Vim allows me to focus on the CODE not the IDE by allowing me:
1. to keep my hands on the keyboard.
2. to use my own compiler(s).
3. to use other external apps like a CVS or SVN.
4. to work on files via FTP, etc.
5. to have control over anything and everything about the editor.

Obviously there is a HUGE learning curve with Vim but i got that time back about 500 times fold so far. I use Vim for developing in Lisp and C. I use Vim for typing reports, notes, etc. everyday. It is integrated by default into all Lnux and Unix OS' (if not Vim then its parent Vi).

Real simply put, there is no editor that is on the same plane as Vim or Emacs. Im not knocking anyone's editor because i know that both Vim and Emacs are very complicated beasts and is just plain over kill for someone just doing lisp the rest of their life but if you ever plan on using another language...take the leap to a real editor.  Honestly, if you invest the time into either Vim or Emacs you will never go back. They are light years beyond anything you have ever seen and that is why you will be hard pressed to find anything like a "feature list", like you see for other editors, for either of them. 

And im not saying that an editor like UE isnt good either its just that i prefer the way i can "work" (not have to use the keyboard, etc) in Vim; i dont have to work the way my editor wants me to work, i just turn on or off features. For example if i wanted an editor like UE this day, i would just use eVim (easy vim: no normal mode) or how i can turn on or off features based upon the type of file im working on by either using a syntax thing in my setting file, or another syntax thing in the file itself, or with a keyboard macro, or a menu, etc. ...you would have to try Vim to see/know what im talking about but i think you can get an idea.

http://tnerual.eriogerg.free.fr/0xBABAF000L/10_en.html
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 01, 2010, 06:24:38 PM


On a sort of related topic ;

The annual API wish list from AutoDESK included enhancement to the VLIDE.
The item scored high on the participating developers 'Possible AutoCAD enhancements' wish list.
.. can't say how high, cause there was an 'ACI'  included with the results.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 06:28:57 PM
That would be cool.
Heck, if they provide some sort of API, access, or whatever for the VLIDE would be cool too but i suppose it would be a lot easier and cheaper for them to just make the improvements themselves so i can see them going that route first.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 01, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
That would be cool.
Heck, if they provide some sort of API, access, or whatever for the VLIDE would be cool too but i suppose it would be a lot easier and cheaper for them to just make the improvements themselves so i can see them going that route first.


** deleted response message that contained the words/expression 'AutoCAD''technology''faith'user requirements''dismal' **
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 06:43:57 PM
lmao

Tell ya what: go grab a few beers from your second fridge (the one for beer only) and sit back and try and draw a straight line without ortho, grid, or snaps. It will keep you occupied for hours and help you forget all about it.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: pkohut on July 01, 2010, 07:00:33 PM
I use VLide for that stuff and really appreciate the psychedelic colors it starts turning warning me it is going to crash soon and I should save my work and restart Autocad.

Otherwise, Notepad++ for my general purpose editor. Even when coding in VS there is usually a session of NP++ open to look at other sources or use as a scratch pad.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: hermanm on July 01, 2010, 07:14:26 PM
aye yi yi :)

Code: [Select]
(setq global_editor_preferences (* nprogrammers 3.5))
;;more or less

For me:
Boxer for main editor
VLIDE for (some) debugging
I have also used LISPLink in the past

@ se7en:

Does VIM play well/ interact with Microsoft Visual Studio?
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 01, 2010, 07:16:35 PM


For the OP :
Just noticed that you seem to be geting a better response here than the other places you posted this.  :wink:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 01, 2010, 07:22:07 PM
@ hermanm
not sure. I use mingw or digital mars mostly but I know there is a VS "plugin" for Vim but that could be b4 .net only.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: hermanm on July 01, 2010, 07:43:01 PM
@ hermanm
not sure. I use mingw or digital mars mostly but I know there is a VS "plugin" for Vim but that could be b4 .net only.

Ah, thanks.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: qjchen on July 01, 2010, 08:18:27 PM
lisplink

:)  I also use it over 10 years.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 02, 2010, 01:17:35 AM
<snip>
@ se7en:

Does VIM play well/ interact with Microsoft Visual Studio?

Now that i have access to my laptop and the Vim help files. Here is the snip from the help files hermanm.


Quote
5. MS Visual Studio integration         *MSVisualStudio* *VisVim*

The OLE version can be used to run Vim as the editor in Microsoft Visual
Studio.  This is called "VisVim".  It is included in the archive that contains
the OLE version.  The documentation can be found in the runtime directory, the
README_VisVim.txt file.


Using Vim with Visual Studio .Net~

With .Net you no longer really need VisVim, since .Net studio has support for
external editors.  Follow these directions:

In .Net Studio choose from the menu Tools->External Tools...
Add
     Title     - Vim
     Command   - c:\vim\vim63\gvim.exe
     Arguments - --servername VS_NET --remote-silent "+call cursor($(CurLine), $(CurCol))" $(ItemPath)
     Init Dir  - Empty

Now, when you open a file in .Net, you can choose from the .Net menu:
Tools->Vim

That will open the file in Vim.
You can then add this external command as an icon and place it anywhere you
like.  You might also be able to set this as your default editor.

If you refine this further, please post back to the Vim maillist so we have a
record of it.

--servername VS_NET
This will create a new instance of vim called VS_NET.  So if you open multiple
files from VS, they will use the same instance of Vim.  This allows you to
have multiple copies of Vim running, but you can control which one has VS
files in it.

--remote-silent "+call cursor(10, 27)"
         - Places the cursor on line 10 column 27
In Vim >
   :h --remote-silent for mor details

[.Net remarks provided by Dave Fishburn and Brian Sturk]
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: VovKa on July 02, 2010, 03:27:05 AM
i like vlide so much that i don't even want to try something else
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 02, 2010, 03:37:51 AM

I'm quite happy too.

... so I don't even read John's Vim posts   :evil:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: TimSpangler on July 02, 2010, 07:21:34 AM

I'm quite happy too.

... so I don't even read John's Vim posts   :evil:

 :lmao:
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 02, 2010, 08:09:35 AM
That's too funny.
What a way to wake up. :-)
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: hermanm on July 02, 2010, 11:24:22 AM
Quote
With .Net you no longer really need VisVim, since .Net studio has support for
external editors.  Follow these directions:

Wow! I didn't know that.

Thanks, John.:)
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: John Kaul (Se7en) on July 02, 2010, 12:25:46 PM
@ hermanm
No problem. It was no trouble at all.

@ everyone besides hermanm (whom actually seems to appreciate the genius that is i)
[Joe Pesci voice] Funny how? I amuse you? Like i'm a clown, i amuse you? [/Joe Pesci voice]

:D
:P
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 02, 2010, 03:36:34 PM


For the OP :
Just noticed that you seem to be geting a better response here than the other places you posted this.  :wink:

Yep - I'm seeing that just now, and I'm overwhelmed! (Well, almost).  TheSwamp is the place!

Notepad++ was looking real good, but when you mentioned UltraEdit I just tried that, and it looks like the winner. I saw that it has a "wordfile" for AutoLISP already available. That alone is worth the $60. And it looks like it does everything I need as well or better than Notepad++ or anything else I've seen. I believe my search is over. Thanks very much Kerry (and to everyone else that contributed to the discussion).
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 02, 2010, 04:07:02 PM
You may also be interested in this :
http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=20643.msg250951#msg250951
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 02, 2010, 04:09:14 PM
This is the one I use:

Note that the L14 and L15 are all you are interested in.
Here is the first line

Code: [Select]
/L14"AutoLISP" Block Comment On = ;| Block Comment Off = |; Line Comment Num = 2;  Line Comment Preceding Chars = [~|]
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 10, 2010, 05:04:05 PM
Thanks for that wordfile CAB - it's better than the one I found on the UE site.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 10, 2010, 05:38:38 PM
Glad you can make use of it. Most is mine but some came from Michael's file.
I'll point you to his if I can find the link.


Still have a problem with comments ; if there is no space following. The color is not correct
but if you change things it screw something else up.  I have learned to live with it.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 10, 2010, 05:49:00 PM
Comments seem fine for me. I noticed that you had:
/Line Comment Alt = ;;
...so I changed it to:
/Line Comment Alt = ;

I did that right away, mostly because I usually use just on ";", but maybe that fixed the problem you are having also.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: CAB on July 10, 2010, 07:40:27 PM
When you do that it doesn't recognize ;| as a block comment.  :-(
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: Kerry on July 10, 2010, 11:47:56 PM
Alan, Ken ,

I use the Studio Version ie UltraStudio ( have a lifetime license)

The wordfiles are seperate file for each language which is a little easier to handle.

This is the header for my AutoLisp.uew
Code: [Select]
/L20"AutoLISP" Block Comment On = ;| Block Comment Off = |;
/ Line Comment Num = 2;  Line Comment Preceding Chars = [~|]
/Line Comment Alt = ;; Escape Char = \ String Chars = " Nocase File Extensions = LSP MNL
/Colors = 0,8421376,8421376,8421504,255,
/Colors Back = 16777215,16777215,16777215,16777215,16777215,
/Colors Auto Back = 1,1,1,1,1,
/Font Style = 0,0,0,0,0,
/Delimiters =  ~!@%^&()|{}[]" , .?
/Indent Strings = "("
/Unindent Strings = ")"
/Open Brace Strings = "{" "(" "["
/Close Brace Strings = "}" ")" "]"
/Function String = "(defun "

/C7 ( - personal) Colors = 4210816 Colors Back = 16777215 Colors Auto Back = 1 Font Style = 0
** dcl_ kdub: 'kdub: local:

/C8 ( - personal) Colors = 128 Colors Back = 16777215 Colors Auto Back = 1 Font Style = 0
** c:KDUB_ KDUB_ kglobal

< .... snipped .... >

note that I have my brace matching color as RED not the grey default :)

This is the result
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 11, 2010, 10:09:57 AM
When you do that it doesn't recognize ;| as a block comment.  :-(

Hi CAB,

I don't have a problem with that because I never use them. I'm just used to seeing the whole range of lines with the ; in front of each. Easy to do by selecting them and using the comment shortcut (I'm set up to use Ctrl-; to apply, and Alt-; to remove). I will often have a previously commented section inside of a newly commented section - that shows up clearly as ;; instead of a single. I can then uncomment the latest range and still have the previous section commented just as it was before doing the later comment. It's also easier to see if you (or someone else) looks at it in Notepad, or posted in a forum, where you don't have the syntax coloring to make it obvious. So, all things considered, I never found any advantage to using the block comment method.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: kenkrupa on July 11, 2010, 11:28:04 AM
The wordfiles are seperate file for each language which is a little easier to handle.

This is the header for my AutoLisp.uew
Code: [Select]
/L20"AutoLISP" Block Comment On = ;| Block Comment Off = |;
/ Line Comment Num = 2;  Line Comment Preceding Chars = [~|]
/Line Comment Alt = ;; Escape Char = \ String Chars = " Nocase File Extensions = LSP MNL
/Colors = 0,8421376,8421376,8421504,255,
/Colors Back = 16777215,16777215,16777215,16777215,16777215,
/Colors Auto Back = 1,1,1,1,1,
/Font Style = 0,0,0,0,0,
/Delimiters =  ~!@%^&()|{}[]" , .?
/Indent Strings = "("
/Unindent Strings = ")"
/Open Brace Strings = "{" "(" "["
/Close Brace Strings = "}" ")" "]"
/Function String = "(defun "

Hi Kerry (and CAB),

I also thought it made sense to have separate files, so I extracted L14 and L15 from CAB's file before modifying. There's a whole lot of stuff in there that I have no clue about, but got it to provide desired results. One difference I see in CAB's is this:
/Function String 1 = "%[^t (]++defun[^t ]+^([a-zA-Z0-9^[^]^~:`@#^$^%^^&^*-=_^+<>{}',./^?^\|]++^)"
I found that the simple "(defun " string picks up commented out functions for the function list, and does so pretty sloppily, like this:
;(defun c:k()(load "j:\\aa-a2010\\cbt-2010\\source\\cbt_plot")(c:cbt_bplot))
With all the gobbledygook in CAB's version I get an nice clean listing, without any commented out functions (as desired).

Also, I don;t know what / Line Comment Num = 2; does. It's still in mine, and I don't know if it's doing anything or not - as far as I can tell it's not having any effect.

Mine has
/Ignore String SOL ";"
(from CAB's file). I'm guessing SOL is Start Of Line, but don't know what it's supposed to be doing, or whether it's having any effect on my setup.

I added this to mine:
/Open Fold Strings = "("
/Close Fold Strings = ")"
Not sure if I'll keep it - might be useful. (Having that function list - something I did not have in Codewright - might eliminate the need for this. I'll work with it for a while.)

After using the same keystrokes and all for nearly 20 years, I'm very happy to find UE and be able to pretty much match what my fingers do automatically. I can just think about what I'm programming, and don't have to think about how to get that thinking onto the screen. It's like if you play a piano, you wouldn't want to move to some alien piano that has the keys laid out altogether different. So I appreciate that you guys are helping me get this into shape.

Finally, you showed my yours so I'll show you mine. I'm not big on a lot of different colors - this is to my liking as shown. I like the parens in red - maybe 'cuz I'm just used to it that way.

Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: hmspe on July 11, 2010, 12:06:41 PM
I use TextPad for editing.  For checking parens I use ParenMatch by FARAsoft.  [Google "parenmat.zip".  The file at ftp.sunet.se is the correct one.]  It's a stand-alone program that color codes paren sets, first level black, second level red, etc.  I find it much easier than stepping through parens in an editor.
Title: Re: Best editor for LISP?
Post by: JAY on September 29, 2014, 12:47:29 AM
notepad++? notetpad++?!
...the OP said "Editors" not "Crap".


:D

+1
Yes, I also like it ,   another , everedit