TheSwamp
CAD Forums => Vertically Challenged => Land Lubber / Geographically Positioned => Topic started by: surveyor_randy on December 01, 2007, 09:08:38 PM
-
Jeez... I'm starting to feel guilty since my questions are now all at the top of the topic list. :oops:
I have two questions....
1: Line segment labels - the leading "0" is dropped in bearings < 10 degrees. Our format is to use the leading 0. I would like to have a bearing shown are N 07-35-23 E instead of N 7-35-23 E. Is there any way to change this in the style settings?
2: Plan production seems to only cater to engineers for Plan & Profile. Could some of you people share your strategies for plotting multi-page plats. Are you duplicating the linework and pasting into paperspace? or doing everything with viewports on different sheets? In LDD, we would do all of our labeling in paper space and not even utilize viewports.
Thanks again for the wealth of help and information everyone here at The Swamp seems to provide!
-
Now that we have spoiled you with solutions to make Civil 3D bend to your will, I get to break that string . . .
Way down in the topic tree you will find THIS (http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=17990.0) rather infamous and volatile thread about the leading zero issue. If you do not want to read the whole sordid tale, the bottom line is no, you can't get them in a truly dynamic label and it seems to be far too much to ask of Autodesk to provide the option. I think though after working with 2008 since then, that 2008 will allow you to ctrl-pick on the label and select edit label contents in the context menu to edit the individual labels to contain any information you want - remembering of course that if the labeled segment is modified, it will revert back to its original contents. I haven't tried this with plat labels, but it works with any profile labels I have tried.
For multi sheet plats, I have been using viewports on different tabs. I have an index sheet with all of the dedication and description verbiage and a viewprot at something like 100 or even 200 scale showing the layout, boundary and tie information. The other sheets are all something like 50 scale with everything fully labeled. The only duplicate labels are what I need for the boundary on the index sheet. Sinc may have a lot more to say about this than I about batter methodology and generally it seems to be more of what it takes to get the local planning departments to approve the plats than the ideal AutoCAD method.
-
As far as I know, there is no way to edit a Parcel Label. So if you really need that leading zero, I think the only way to get it is to explode the label into MTEXT. If you do this, you may notice that any background mask the label may have will remain as a Hatch object that can then be deleted, if you can manage to select it (which can be tricky).
So far, I've been able to tell everyone that the software can't do the leading zero, and although no one is really happy with the appearance, everyone seems willing to let it go.
With multi-page plats, there are a few issues that combine to make it something of a nightmare:
- It is impossible to place a Parcel Label on a Parcel unless it exists in the current drawing.
- It is impossible to create Data References or Data Shortcuts to Parcels.
- Parcel labels always "live" on the same layer as the Parcel Segment they are attached to, and trying to change the layer of the Label will also change the Parcel Segment layer, and the layer of all other labels attached to the same segment.
That last item means that we need to keep all our Parcel Segments on Layer 0, then use the layer in the Parcel Label Style to control appearance. Unfortunately, this means that in order to use VPFREEZE to control what labels are visible on what layout, we must have one style for every layer you want a Parcel Label to appear on.
But if you consider how many different label styles are necessary for a complex plat, you can see how creating an entire set of labels for every layer you want to have labels on quickly leads to a HUGE number of styles, which lead to a huge timesink, as large numbers of styles are more-difficult to maintain.
So we've come up with a bunch of tricks. For the most part, we label everything in our plat as if it were going to appear on one giant sheet. Then we create a bunch of layouts in the drawing, one for each page of the plat. Then we create some layers that get VPFROZEN so that they only appear on certain layouts, and go around and place wipeouts on these layers as-needed. The wipeouts go on top of the labels, but are only visible in certain viewports, so they cover up the text that gets "chopped" by the edges of each viewport.
We will also periodically draw a line or an arc over a parcel segment, and use General Line/Curve labels on that segment. Unlike Parcel Labels, General Line/Curve labels can be moved to different layers without creating a new style. So we can put the Line/Curve labels on the layers that get VPFROZEN. This method lets us label a segment in one way for page two, but a different way for page three, etc. But since we have to draw a piece of duplicate linework in order to do it, we only use this method where we have to. For most items, we use Parcel Labels. But by using General Line/Curve labels for some segments, we get away from that need to create an entire set of Parcel Label Styles for every layer we want labels on. Instead, we have one set of Parcel Labels, and then use General Line/Curve labels where we need a label on a different layer.
We are hoping that we can move Parcel Labels to different layers without affecting the Parcel Segment in 2009. Actually, we're hoping for more-significant improvements than that, but we aren't holding our breath. If Autodesk simply made it so Parcel Labels were not always on the Parcel Segment layer, and worked more like Line/Curve labels, that alone would make our life much easier.
Also, when doing this, it becomes very apparent how Parcel Curve labels and General Curve Labels work in different ways, and need different settings in the Styles to get the same result. This is just obnoxious. Parcel labels are also affected by the way the original linework was drawn, which can also lead to "interesting" (aka "frustrating") behavior...
It takes some time to get used to all the pitfalls, but once you figure it all out and get all your styles setup and get used to the stilted way of working, it goes relatively fast. In some ways, the dynamic nature of Parcels make them easier to use than Map Topologies, but Map Topologies had tools for analyzing and fixing linework, which is missing from C3D Parcels. And of course, they are incompatible, so it is impossible to create a nice Map topology and convert it to C3D Parcels.
This whole area is pretty messy, and one of the areas where C3D provides the least value over older software. But so far, we've been able to do everything we need to. The thing that affects us the most is that inability to create Data References to Parcels. It means we end up with duplicate Parcel Information spread all over among drawings, which is a breeding ground for problems. A change to a Parcel means that same change may need to be made in a several drawings, and forgetting to update a drawing can lead to serious problems. But I guess you do what's ya gots ta do.
-
Thank you for the informative reply. You've opened my eyes to a few problems that I wasn't aware of. Parcel segment labels living on a different layer then the segment. Wow, what a pain the a** this is going to be initially. I could swing myself through putting together a multipage plat with C3D, but I have to now explain all of this to the Terramodel users. :roll:
I think I might end up creating a separate parcel style for each sheet of the plat, draw a bunch of 24" x 36" rectangles to figure out what parcels will reside on what page of the plat and then assign the parcel styles based on what 'page rectangle' they fall within. This seems like it would give the the best options for turning specific parcel/parcel labels on/off in the layouts. Another idea that I've been toying around with, is creating a polygonal viewport along the lot lines at the extent of each page. I got so excited about the Plan Production tools, but then was let down when I discovered it's true intent.
As far as the leading '0' being missing on the bearing labels. It is going to be hard for me to convince my boss to 'just deal with it'. It we have to exploded the labels into mtext and then manually add the '0', it is totally defeating the *dynamic* portion of the labeling scheme. Autodesk really dropped the ball on this one. I was over looking through their discussion groups and Peter Funk said that this is on the drawing board to be corrected in the 2009 edition. It should be corrected *NOW*. While they are at it, they should add a feature to "Label Line by Points", like LDD did, so I can finally create a proper span label.
Another idea I had about doing plats, is creating boxes with plottable areas then using 'WBLOCK' to grab the contents of them and just save them as a separate DWG, explode the objects and trim them. But again, now we are losing that *dynamic* functionality. So now I'm stuck with having revisions for each page of the plat and then going back into the main drawing and altering the parcels *OR* just recreating the WBLOCKS and doing pages again. I'd rather edit the parcels first, then WBLOCK the pages out. Any way I choose to do it, it seems like it is going to be a fairly labor intensive task in the beginning. (shameless_a$$_kissing.begin) but thankfully, I've got the fine folks at The Swamp to help me out with any problems! (shameless_a$$_kissing.end) :-D
-
You don't necessarily have to use the parcel functions to label a plat in Civil 3D. In fact, I have yet to use parcels for any of my civil 3D projects dating back 3 years now. I use the general line and curve segment labeling and simple dumb line work for plats. I have not yet had occasion to check if these labels can be edited as I can with profile labels.
addendum -
The general segment labels can be modified as I described above except you need only right click on the individual label . . . parcel labels, as sinc mentioned can not be modified with this method. Other labels sets such as profile labels must have the individual label selected as I described before with a ctrl-pick for the option to appear in the context menu. There appears to be no standard behavior between different types of labels and how they are edited an whether or not the edit survives updates. Certain horizontal alignment labels in a profile keep the edit until changed directly while other labels reset spontaneously with any change to the alignment, profile view settings or even physically moving the profile view to a different location.
-
Thanks! I tried what you said with parcel labels and then realized that you couldn't 'edit text' on parcel line labels. I think that we are just going to use general line labels. It really defeats the purpose of even using parcels though, except for lot numbering and areas. It is really no skin off of my back since we don't design geometry at my firm, our planners do that and I fine tune it. I think it is quite sad that C3D doesn't have a label line segment by points command. It is stupid and bad practice to create duplicate linework just for labeling purposes. LDD did it and it was one of my favorite features. If Autodesk wants us Surveyors to abandon LDD and accept C3D with open arms, we need to have *FULL* LDD functionality AND more! Not less, like it seems we have been given. Don't get me wrong, because I love C3D, now that I understand the other design aspects of it but they really need to get a group of surveyors together and ask them what they need for real-world functionality. (Peter, if you are reading this, I will volunteer my time!)
I wonder if 'label by points' could be accomplished programatically? Sinc? Before I delve to deeply into pursing the possibility of this... Have a great day, gentlemen!
-
...... (Peter, if you are reading this, I will volunteer my time!)
myfeedback.autodesk.com sign up for Beta testing the next version.
I wonder if 'label by points' could be accomplished programatically? Sinc? Before I delve to deeply into pursing the possibility of this...
Sure you can, but they will not be dynamic nor use labels/styles....which would be exactly like LDT.....this is what the C3D designers were trying to avoid, imo.
-
Thanks! I tried what you said with parcel labels and then realized that you couldn't 'edit text' on parcel line labels. I think that we are just going to use general line labels. It really defeats the purpose of even using parcels though, except for lot numbering and areas. It is really no skin off of my back since we don't design geometry at my firm, our planners do that and I fine tune it. I think it is quite sad that C3D doesn't have a label line segment by points command. It is stupid and bad practice to create duplicate linework just for labeling purposes. LDD did it and it was one of my favorite features. If Autodesk wants us Surveyors to abandon LDD and accept C3D with open arms, we need to have *FULL* LDD functionality AND more! Not less, like it seems we have been given. Don't get me wrong, because I love C3D, now that I understand the other design aspects of it but they really need to get a group of surveyors together and ask them what they need for real-world functionality. (Peter, if you are reading this, I will volunteer my time!)
I wonder if 'label by points' could be accomplished programatically? Sinc? Before I delve to deeply into pursing the possibility of this... Have a great day, gentlemen!
I do not believe that parcels are even suitable to use for survey purposes at this time. I know for certain that I do not trust the geometry they create. Parcels, above everything else, can only exist within a perfectly closed figure and Civil 3D will take every step necessary to create such a figure and keep it that way. This may mean lines that are supposed to be exactly perpendicular to or parallel with each other are not necessarily so and arcs may or may not have exact tangents or common center points. Everything is correct per the precision specified but new geometry created from these segments are not necessarily absolute. To use anything from them to create further geometry risks introduction of tiny gaps and overlaps and non tangent lines into or out of curves.
-
I do not believe that parcels are even suitable to use for survey purposes at this time. I know for certain that I do not trust the geometry they create.
Hmmmmm.... I'm beginning to think that you are right on this issue. I don't really think our engineers give a hoot about parcels so why even bother. The only advantage I can see to them is quickly getting area labels from them. I think that I could probably get area labels from a closed polyline as well?? So it looks like I just might go back to using BPOLY again and doing everything the old fashoned way.
-
On another note, I don't think it's possible to generate tag labels with the general line/curve segment labeling routine. C3D is real surveyor friendly... I want all of my static labeling functionality back that LDD had. :realmad:
-
Keep in mind that you can only use tag labels with Parcels Labels. So the only way to get a Line/Curve table is with Parcels.
Also, there are reporting options that are only available for Parcels.
I have not run into issues with the geometry of Parcels. However, we've developed this elaborate technique of putting certain things on various layers and using Map Cleanup and Topologies in very specific ways to clean up the linework before we create Parcels. This must be done carefully, so that the resulting linework is clean, yet it is still possible to use spanning labels on the resulting parcels. At some point, I'll try to put together a tutorial on the whole process, but I'm not sure when I'll get time.
On the whole, we find Parcels to work better than "the old way". I would recommend Map Topologies and Annotations as being far superior than BPOLY, but compared to C3D Parcels, even Map Topologies and Annotations are annoying, because they are not dynamic.
That being said, there are a lot of drawbacks to using Parcels. One is that they are very fragile when it comes to edits. When editing Parcels, it is common for Parcel name and properties (including style and description) to be lost, area labels reset at unwanted times, segment labels exhibit some strange quirks, many editing techniques are convoluted and hazard-prone, and the whole thing is a general mess. But even with all those problems, we still use them as being the best available option, all things considered.
More problems with Parcels:
- Parcels cannot be "grouped". And Parcel Numbers must be unique, and there is no provision for a "Block number". So if you are in an area that likes to plat subdivisions as Blocks, you have to jump through hoops in order to get things like "Block 1, Lot 1" and "Block 2, Lot 1" in the same drawing. Similarly, it is difficult to come up with numbers like "area per block". And the order of precedence for Parcel Styles does not always work - sometimes it is impossible to get the desired linework appearance using only Parcel Style precedence, and the user must fall back on multiple Sites.
- Similarly, there is no way to link linework between Sites, so that changes in one Site are also reflected in another. This means that anytime multiple Sites are used to get around limitations in Parcel design, there is duplicate linework created, which is bad.
- There is no provision for linking found monuments to Parcels. This means that there is no easy, automated way of doing things like labeling Recorded vs. Measured distances. There are hacks and ways to "get the job done", but Autodesk has provided no direct support for this functionality.
- There is a roundabout hack for getting commas into Parcel Area Labels, so that "45600 Sq. Feet" shows up as "45,600 Sq. Feet". Unfortunately, it is messy, and requires one style for "no comma", one style for "comma, thousands", and if you need it, yet another style for "comma, millions". And the workaround uses Expressions, which cannot be used in Reference Text in C3D 2008. Or rather, Expressions in Reference Text work in 2008, they just can't be created in 2008 - the Component Editor won't let you. However, it was possible to do this in 2007. So if you want to create reference component that displays Parcel Areas using Commas, you must start up C3D 2007, create your style with Reference Text there, then move that style forward into your 2008 stuff.
And there are even more problems. Parcels in C3D are extremely weak. But like I said, I *think* they are still worth it. At least, we are using them with some success, albeit with difficulty.
The choice is up to you. But if you decide not to use Parcels, I definitely recommend you check into using Map Polygon Topologies and Annotations over trying to link labels to polylines created with BPOLY.
-
Then I guess I have to use parcels because I *MUST* be able to use curve and linetables and I don't think I want to start learning to use map topologies yet. On another note, my boss today said that he could care less about a leading zero on a bearing call. Good news for me!
-
Randy, Do you have compatible Land Desktop available or are you on Civil 3D exclusive?
-
I have LDD 2006. The company does not.
-
The reason I asked, several months back a member posted a line and curve labeling routine named WGLISP that I think dates back to at least r13 and likely even runs on r9. It is not dynamic of course, but it does a very acceptable job of plat annotation. I exported BPOLYs of my lots and used it for a few plats before I started exploring the general labels functions. I thought it might work for you, but I notice you need table functions that this routine doesn't have. We use tables as an absolute last resort due to some "internal issues" with the county assessors and planning departments around here.
The best work around I can offer is if you could export the linework to your LDT and annotate it there. Then you could either insert the annotation with the line work on a no plot layer or even xref the annotation drawing.
-
The best work around I can offer is if you could export the linework to your LDT and annotate it there. Then you could either insert the annotation with the line work on a no plot layer or even xref the annotation drawing.
hey now!!! shame on you! Trying to make more work for me, since I am the only one at our company with a licensed version of LDD. :-P
All kidding aside, I should just give the plat line work to our high dollar draftsperson and say "I need this plotted so I can submit it to the county", but that is not my style!
-
Sorry, I tend to think in solo mode since that is how I have to work most of the time. I would want to make someone else do anything in LDT anyway . . . I started out with EaglePoint and never warmed up to LDT for any chores the two years I fought with it.