TheSwamp
CAD Forums => CAD General => CAD Standards => Topic started by: Mark on October 24, 2007, 12:41:27 PM
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I'm working on a multi-discipline standard for a large project and I'm trying to come up with a single style/font to use on the border. Thus far Arial seems to work OK.
Any/All comments welcome.
thanks
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If you're willing to use Arial, might I suggest Arial Unicode MS since there are many more special symbols available if you need them?
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Don't ask us becuase we use 6 different fonts in our title block. That is if you mean a border is a title block . Just our title block, the drawing file is RomanS. We Archies have to make it look pretty. :lol:
But M-DUB is right about finding a font that makes us of Symbols.
To each their own.
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My 2¢ ... if you have a say in the matter avoid true type fonts entirely (unless there is absolute need) and stick with vanilla AutoCAD fonts. Romans is considered industry defacto standard: clean, easy to read even on reduced plots, renders fast -- but archies don't like it because it's not flamboyant enough.
Puts on extra shielding ...
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The reason I choose Arial is because it's not affected ( at least not in my testing ) by line widths. romans will likely be used for most everything else.
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My 2¢ ... if you have a say in the matter avoid true type fonts entirely
I was in the middle of modifying my post when I was interrupted. That's what I was going to say... Either I'm old school in being stuck mainly to Acad fonts or the rest of the Acad world is moving forward, and embracing TTF's.
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I raise MP 2cents by about 20 dollars. We have a ton of notes on some of our plans. When the client wanted to change the standard to a true type font, not only did regens slow to a crawl, but plt files exploded in size. At the time we were using HP designjet 650's and a couple of the sheets generated 18 meg plt files which pretty much made the printer cry and give up.
To what is pretty or not, if the plans are easy to read, avoid confusion, get the point across and eliminates the need for the contractor to pick up the phone and call me, then it is absolutely gorgeous.
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The reason I choose Arial is because it's not affected ( at least not in my testing ) by line widths. romans will likely be used for most everything else.
I prefer RomanS over everything else too, but have my gripes even about IT. I would prefer to see (OUT of the box) more definition of 1's, I's, l's, 0's, O's, as well as being inclusive of more symbols.
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If its just the drawing border and title, I think it looks good to use Arial font, specially if you're using romans or something for the general notes etc. I find it helps distinguish the drawing notes from the drawing frame.
(but thats just me :) )
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We use RomanS as a standard across all our drawings.
Because it crosses over well when our drawings go to other companies as well as other cad systems.
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The reason I choose Arial is because it's not affected ( at least not in my testing ) by line widths. romans will likely be used for most everything else.
I prefer RomanS over everything else too, but have my gripes even about IT. I would prefer to see (OUT of the box) more definition of 1's, I's, l's, 0's, O's, as well as being inclusive of more symbols.
I rewrote Romans here to put "hats and tails" on I's, and a / thru a 0 (zero) so as to not confuse O and 0 and I and 1
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I can post the SHP file if you want to see how to program fonts.
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I can post the SHP file if you want to see how to program fonts.
Very cool!
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I can post the SHP file if you want to see how to program fonts.
Very cool!
does that mean you want a copy?
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I've been meaning to revise our "RomanS" (no I wouldn't keep it named RomanS because of the following reasons) to take some of the never used symbols that are easy to get to on the keyboard... maybe ? and _ or something... so that would could have PL, SL, and CL without jumping through hoops. I think your idea about putting the slash through the zero would be great, because often we dimension the overall of something and add "O/O" to the end, to denote out-to-out, and it always irked me, especially when you see
|<------------ 100'-0" O/O -------------->|
in a font with too-similar Os and 0s.
Good idea, I might take a look.. I had read through the chapter in the Autocad "Customization" book that covers fonts, but it may help being able to see my original RomanS, and see what is different for the "O" than yours. I often learn by example faster (maybe not better, but faster) than shooting from the hip until it works right :P
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On the surface custom fonts sound cool and all that but I have to tell you -- be very careful lest you author your very own distrubution hell.
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I did the 0 (zero) not the O (oh) but here they are
SHX (http://www.theswamp.org/lilly_pond/index.php?dir=cmdrduh/&file=romans.shx)
SHP (http://www.theswamp.org/lilly_pond/index.php?dir=cmdrduh/&file=ROMANS.shp) readable by Notepad or text editor of choice
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YES MP is very correct in the distribution HELL that can arise from this. I keep 3 or 4 copies so that if for some unknown reason something happens, I can restore it. Now also, since Im not changing the "Letter"/"number" that is being used, just what it looks like, anyone who open a dwg without my shx file, just sees I's and 0's like normal.
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If you reprogram ? or _ to be something else, you MUST give your font.shx to everybody that might ever open your file. Otherwise when they open your file and expect to see your "custom" character, they see ? or _
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I would suggest that you stay with native ACAD fonts, and stay away from TT fonts given the issues that they tend to present. Granted they are better now than in past versions they still can trend towards problematic.
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On the surface custom fonts sound cool and all that but I have to tell you -- be very careful lest you author your very own distrubution hell.
I've seen the effects of it... I'm working on a drawing from an architect who has all his Phi symbols replaced by "?", and I think he has a symbol for PL which is replaced by a funky squiggly lower case "f" and I have received no alert that I'm missing a shape file or font when opening it, so I think he redefined "Arial" without changing the name of it.
I've seen the disastrous effect, but I don't foresee having a problem. For 90% of our projects, we're the top of the food chain, so it'll only be used by us, without the drawings trickling down, other than model space geometry and reading our PDFs. Our subs are pretty smart though. We have a custom font needed for one of our subs logo that goes on their .DWGs and there's been no problems, ever.
I'll be sure to be cautious if I end up using a custom font though. I'm just tired of typing \u+2104 and having to create an extra MTEXT object just for an "L" to move over the "S" when I want a dimension from SL to SL. (I don't wanna settle for SL or PL or CL as I wrote them here)
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YES MP is very correct in the distribution HELL that can arise from this. I keep 3 or 4 copies so that if for some unknown reason something happens, I can restore it. Now also, since Im not changing the "Letter"/"number" that is being used, just what it looks like, anyone who open a dwg without my shx file, just sees I's and 0's like normal.
Yea, that's a very innocent change with no repercussions, of any scale.
If you reprogram ? or _ to be something else, you MUST give your font.shx to everybody that might ever open your file. Otherwise when they open your file and expect to see your "custom" character, they see ? or _
That's the thing. If I were to change what characters look like, I would 100% never, ever, name it the same thing as the file I started with. If I started with RomanS and changed some characters, I would name it after our company, probably. That way, when someone opens our drawing, they get the little popup that tells them "oh hooo... someone didn't send me their font or shx files" and there's a flag.
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I'm working on a multi-discipline standard for a large project and I'm trying to come up with a single style/font to use on the border. Thus far Arial seems to work OK.
Any/All comments welcome.
thanks
We use here basically SIMPLEX.SHX and in cases that we use any other, we mention to any consultant to use a the FONTALT sysvar - also read about FONTMAP sysvar
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Make sure you DOUBLE check inside the file for the naming of the font, I cant remember where it is (probably line 1 or 2) there is a line that tells Autocad the font "name"
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On Topic (sorry for the hijack)
I think it looks nice when you have a fancied-up border, but with ours, we use Autocad geometry for our logo (lines and hatches) and TIMES NEW ROMAN for the company information under the logo. For title block text we use SANSSERIF
These are all true type fonts, though, and if you're worried about any ramifications that mjfarrell suggests, then I guess you wouldn't want to use ours. Obviously we're not worried about it. I've had no problems with them. We print out own half size prints, and send out our full size prints to someone else, as well as have had sent files to subs that have printed full size sheets for themselves and have not noticed anything different, and never heard of problems.
I find those fonts are nothing fancy but not too ... commodore-64 looking. (nttiawwt [before someone gets offended])
I've attached the border that goes on the right hand side of our drawings (rotated to keep the page stretching to a minimum)
I plotted to PDF, then saved as PNG, and reduced size to 80%, so there's some compression, pixel tesselation and all that junk, but you get the gist.
Our main reason for the title block being like it is, is it's something that can go 22x34, or 24x36, it is "ok" to be submitted to the LADOTD (with minamal alteration) if we need to use it for bridge drawings, and it looks better than what we -had- which was something out of a freshman year drafting students homework.
I filleted all the corners since we do architectural work sometimes too :P
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hmm... that logo looks oddly.. 'purple' to me... should be blue... oh well
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So my biggest suggestion... if you're going to want something "neat" for your title block... use any font you want... then trace over it with lines/hatches. Those are universal and can't be messed up (easily).
Our logo is simply Autocad's "VINETA BT" or something like that... they started their company over the weekend and just "needed something" and later, our lawyer advised us to make it clearer that "CASE" is an acronym, to differentiate ourselves from the OTHER company named "CASE"
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*gotten as far as MPs 2 cents so far*
Agree with MP, dont use TTF's if you can help it. Avoid them like the plague if you can.
*going back to reading*
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So my biggest suggestion... if you're going to want something "neat" for your title block... use any font you want... then trace over it with lines/hatches....
I second that.....it's most annoying to have to install a proprietary font just to get a client's logo to show up correctly. I used the express tools "Explode Text" to create our logo :).
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What problems have TTF's caused? I haven't noticed, and I want to make sure I'm totally aware of anything we're doing that could cause problems... BEFORE they happen to us.
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I can post the SHP file if you want to see how to program fonts.
yes please
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What problems have TTF's caused? I haven't noticed, and I want to make sure I'm totally aware of anything we're doing that could cause problems... BEFORE they happen to us.
I think the issue with them is when there is ALOT of text in a drawing. For a simple titleblock not much of a performance hit, just annoying that they have to be installed to be seen.
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For us, if you do not put a copy of the TTF in the acad\fonts folder, they dont work
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I can post the SHP file if you want to see how to program fonts.
yes please
Hey Seven, look here (http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=19587.msg238739#msg238739)
have fun
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For us, if you do not put a copy of the TTF in the acad\fonts folder, they dont work
Does this work with TTF as well. I thought this was only the case for SHX?
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The shx files are there by default, but around release 2002 I think, we went to Verdana.TTF for Bold fonts, and if we didn't add it to the folder, it just wouldn't work. I have been adding it to the folder every upgrade since just to speed up rollout of new software. I dont know if it is a requirement or not
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*gotten as far as MPs 2 cents so far*
Agree with MP, dont use TTF's if you can help it. Avoid them like the plague if you can.
*going back to reading*
Gotta go with Michael, John and others here. We use ONLY romans and romand <period>. Saves headaches, but then I still have scars from the SIMPFRAC.SHX insanity.
Anybody else remember the lowercase QWERTY keys for stacked fractions?? In the mid eighties, CADence magazine had an article on how to make custom font stacked fractions redefining the lower case letters. Well, one company started with a lower case "Q" as a sixteenth moving up with sixteenth inch increments, another started with a thirty-second and moved up in thirty-second inch increments. In one a lower case "G" was fifteen-sixteenths, in the other it was fifteen-thirty-seconds. Both used SIMPFRAC for the font file name. Care to guess how those phone calls went??
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Well, the issues with TT fonts is that should you go here: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/usearch/results?la=en&siteID=123112&catID=123155&id=2088334&nh=10&qt=true+type+fonts&rq=0&oq=true+type+fonts&col=usuppprd (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/usearch/results?la=en&siteID=123112&catID=123155&id=2088334&nh=10&qt=true+type+fonts&rq=0&oq=true+type+fonts&col=usuppprd) you will see that there are 30 entries dealing with using them.
Forwarned is forearmed.
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... I don't foresee having a problem. For 90% of our projects, we're the top of the food chain, so it'll only be used by us, without the drawings trickling down, other than model space geometry and reading our PDFs ...
I respectfully submit: Enjoy this delusion while it lasts.
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... Care to guess how those phone calls went??
All my guesses are not suitable for mixed company.
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The only problem I have seen with a TTF has been justification issues with strings of DTEXT in lieu of MTEXT a few years ago. I don't recall if the problem spanned a change in the dwg format, but I believe it did and may have been part of the cause. I do remember that it was a monospaced font also. We are using a TTF (Times New Roman) for portions of our titleblocks and on major sheet headers without any issues in 2007 / 2008. I also use Arial for banks of general notes on cover sheets also without problem. For everything else though, it is strictly out of the box SHX fonts (Simplex, RomanD, RomanT and for a monospaced font I use MRomanS (I guess I lied . . . that one is not provided by Autodesk)
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... Care to guess how those phone calls went??
All my guesses are not suitable for mixed company.
neither were the phone calls.... she was pi.... mad.
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*gotten as far as MPs 2 cents so far*
Agree with MP, dont use TTF's if you can help it. Avoid them like the plague if you can.
*going back to reading*
Gotta go with Michael, John and others here. We use ONLY romans and romand <period>. Saves headaches, but then I still have scars from the SIMPFRAC.SHX insanity.
My plans, thus far, are to use one color, 7 ( black ) on the border. That will allow folks to use a light or dark back ground in paperspace. I don't want to mess with line weights on the border if I can help it. There will be less that 50 words that use the Arial font, all other text will be romans. If this were some strange font I would be concerned but Arial! What Windows machine doesn't have that font. The three logos are all native entities, mostly solid hatch and they are small. I'm not real concerned about plot file sizes because all plotting will be done through a printing company.
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I don't see you having any problems with that set-up
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she was pi.... mad.
Like, berry upset?
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Although custom fonts are useful and all that, I still say Autodesk should make changes to their RomanS font and ADD new symbols! Don't replace anything that exists already, just change the I's, and O's, etc. and add more special characters!
That's my argh for the day... so far. :)
And heck, our AutoCAD 2008 just arrived today, so maybe we'll find that the DID update it.. ( Notice I'm not holding my breath )
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Yea, don't hold your breath, for sure.
I think updating an existing font would be hellacious. Then you have to worry about who has what version of the font.
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Then you have to worry about who has what version of the font.
Why would I have to worry? Just off the top of my head, I don't see any major issues, as long as they don't replace any existing characters (except for the I's and O's, etc.)
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Then you have to worry about who has what version of the font.
Why would I have to worry? Just off the top of my head, I don't see any major issues, as long as they don't replace any existing characters (except for the I's and O's, etc.)
Well whatever symbols you add... if they aren't defined in the old font, and someone doesn't have the new one, it'll show up as a ?, typically. So you may use a new unicode symbol definition such as "/u+8-Niner-31" or something, but if that isn't a defined code (like it wouldn't be, in the old font) then it doesn't know what symbol to show.
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D'oh! What is going on today?!? My brain is not functioning properly! You're right... Well, I'd go on a crusade to update everyone's Roman* fonts, no matter which version they had!
OT ~ My second argh of the day is the latest Windows Update imposed on us from IT. Anyone else get this stupid new Windows Desktop Search thing installed?!?! I'll give you a hint... just look for "Use search companion" and you'll get the old one you're used to back.
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D'oh! What is going on today?!? My brain is not functioning properly! You're right... Well, I'd go on a crusade to update everyone's Roman* fonts, no matter which version they had!
OT ~ My second argh of the day is the latest Windows Update imposed on us from IT. Anyone else get this stupid new Windows Desktop Search thing installed?!?! I'll give you a hint... just look for "Use search companion" and you'll get the old one you're used to back.
Not yet, but thanks for the heads up.
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she was pi.... mad.
Like, berry upset?
Belly belly upset