TheSwamp
Code Red => .NET => Topic started by: Kerry on February 08, 2007, 01:48:18 AM
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What sort if information would YOU expect to find in a book on C# Programming for AutoCAD {taming the beast}® ?
What would you pay for it { us$ } ?
*taming : transitive verb (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary-tb?book=Dictionary&va=taming+)
1 a : to reduce from a wild to a domestic state
b : to subject to cultivation
c : to bring under control :
*beast : noun (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary-tb?book=Dictionary&va=beast)
3 : something formidably difficult to control or deal with
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I myself paied 15 dollars for a second hand book on amazon, and I paied the same amount to make it sail (or fly) accross the ocean.
Now, I must be paied to learn C# (just kidding).
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Kerry my dear fellow, that would entirely depend on your intended 'target audience' :D
For me, personally, it would have to be the sort of book that made me go 'now that's interesting', or, 'I never though of doing it THAT way' etc. etc.
To sum up, it would have to be stellar for me to buy it. Just my $2 worth.
Cheers,
Glenn.
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:lmao: any advance on $2 ?? :|
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I would like to see some "real-life" samples on how to write the code, starting with a simple piece of a program and then expand from there. If I can see what I am supposed to be doing (eg changing the layer of an entity), and how that fits in to how I work, and then how it could benefit me, I would be more likely to buy a book. (especially if it doesnt get too technical too quickly)
Also the book would benefit by having "reference" section to make it so it is still useful to me once I have learned how to do the samples provided.
Any coding book in the UK sells for approx £20 to £30 whicjh I suppose is up to $50(ish) dollars(US)
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I would pay up to $100 US for a decent book with examples for writing C# and Autocad. As for what I expect, I guess I would expect it to be like every other code book I have for Autocad - Here is code to draw a line, here is code to draw a circle, etc. Then how to build selection sets, then get into the advanced stuff.
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Other than the basics, the book should cover xdata and dictionary. As far as cost is concerned, maybe between $40 to $60 for a decent book. But if it is really good, like CmdrDuh said, can be $100.
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I would expect to pay 40 to 60 dollars US for any programming book that is actually worth reading.
A few things I would expect to find in a book like that:
1) A list of educational resources for the programming language.
2) A summary of what types of problems the platform can and cannot be reasonably expected to solve.
3) A list of the tools required and supported by various versions of AutoCAD.
4) A chapter on how to set up a project and how to configure AutoCAD to work with the chosen tools.
5) A high-level overview of the object model.
6) Best practices for common tasks and comparisons to any alternative methods.
7) A chapter on COM interop.
5) Tips on things to avoid.
6) Lists of web resources and supplemental tools to aid in the learning process.
There are others, but the list is getting fairly long.
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6) Best practices for common tasks and comparisons to any alternative methods.
This to me is the most important part I would be looking for. There are so many ways to get the same thing done, that I find it hard to learn the "best" way to code a task. Further down the road, I want to put together (with the help of those much smarter than I) a tutorial for C# and Autocad.
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I would like the code samples on CD so I could use the theory in the book and convert the samples to VB. Better yet get a VBer on board and provide samples in both languages. I have a book on Crystal Reports for VS .NET which uses this approach and it is excellent.
Regards - Nathan
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I would pay $50 of my money or $100 of the company's money.
I like solution focused books.
A. Here is the problem or goal.
B. Here is solution A
C. Here is how and why that solution works
D. Here is solution B
E. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of these solutions
I agree with the comments about "what to avoid".
An honest, unbiased review of what does NOT work in the API would be very valuable.
It seems most books on programming avoid this part of the picture.
I would add that an "undocumented" section would be appealing to me. For example the recent post by Tony Tanzillo about the acmgdinternal reference was a fun, exciting and valuable find.
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I'm not sure what I'd expect from such a book, maybe lots of example code. I would be willing to pay $100+ for such a book if it helped me get a good start developing apps for autocad. I think .NET and C# are probably not going away anytime soon and those are going to be the tools of choice for the serious autocad developer.
BTW, I want an autographed copy. :-)
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Just curious but is this [ http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=12649.0 ] thread related?
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Just curious but is this [ http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=12649.0 ] thread related?
Yes, but probably in a way that most people wouldn't recognise :-)
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an alternative working title may be
C# Programming for AutoCAD
{a hackers guide to taming the beast} ®
edit: tarted up for Jonesy
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I like the first one best, dont know why.
Does it/will it have the words AutoCAD and C# anywhere in its title
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Yes Kerry, thats much better :-)
So when can I buy it
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Since it is really me that is the beast needing to be tamed,
I would , with great expectation, save until I had enough
to purchase a book like that.
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Have you got a publisher? In this day and age, do you actually need one?
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Chuck,
no and no.
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I believe Jerry Winters is writing a book as we speak. He was an AU speaker and was a good communicator. Can't wait to see something.
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No hurry Kerry but I do expect to be done with the Labs by next January.
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I believe Jerry Winters is writing a book as we speak. He was an AU speaker and was a good communicator. Can't wait to see something.
eeewww its VB
http://www.amazon.com/VB-NET-Programming-AutoCAD-Customization-Level/dp/1892131102/ref=sr_1_1/002-9594505-4378416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178034347&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/VB-NET-Programming-AutoCAD-Customization-Level/dp/1892131102/ref=sr_1_1/002-9594505-4378416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178034347&sr=8-1)
ISBN-10: 1892131102
ISBN-13: 978-1892131102
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exactly.
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If I hadn't already spent my $5, I would give it a go. Vba to C# isn't that easy for me and since you cant just run something to find out if it works, I have the feeling that it would be a lot less frustrating to learn vb.net then learn C#.
Although many slam vba, it's the kind of program I want. Memory management is one of the good things touted by Net, thank goodness for that, I don't really want or need to know how computors work (Well not at the cost.) and didn't have to with Vba. I know I'll get to like net in the long run, but it is a shame to me that vba is getting the boot. Of couse, to be fair, if lisp suddenly didn't work I wouldn't be that bummed.
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If you end up having like a dictionary with short samples of the signatures or usage of each function or the most possible, that can be used as a reference, for example if the target is for autolisp programmers, take a look of what Chad W. did in one of his C++ courses, he did a summary reference showing the name of the function in autolisp and then how to do it in C++ including the code sample, it can be also for C#.
For example, some very simple functions:
AutoLisp: RTOS function - usage: (rtos number [mode [precision]])
C# (can be something like the code below, not necessary being the right one, just to give to the lisp user, some similarity, from those short samples he can then understand, I think)
public static String RtoS(double num, DistanceUnitFormat units, int precision)
{
return Converter.DistanceToString(num, units, precision);
}
AutoLisp: (distance pt1 pt2)
C#
public static double Distance(Point2d pt1, Point2d pt2)
{
return Math.Sqrt(Math.Pow(pt2.X - pt1.X, 2) + Math.Pow(pt2.Y - pt1.Y, 2));
}
Autolisp: (angle pt1 pt2)
C#
public static double Angle(Point2d pt1, Point2d pt2)
{
return Math.Atan2((pt2.Y - pt1.Y), (pt2.X - pt1.X));
}
I do not know..., if you read some Spanish, I helped Reinaldo Togores when he was working in his book about Visual Lisp:
http://personales.unican.es/togoresr/
The good about it, is that covers all the aspects of Visual Lisp, providing extensive samples...
Have fun!
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Le, that's a good point and I presume a book written by a lisper would be way better for lispers than someone coming from vba/vb. I'm just starting to do the same things with C#, make functions that mimic the functions I use in vba, and the distance example you give took me 20 mins to find Math.Pow as I was looking for something with squared in it.
I think the lure for a book by Kerry for me is that, if Kerry gives an example , it will work, whereas the labs start off all wrong and so you are never sure if the next thing will work.
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... it will work
Thanks Bryco !! I appreciate the sentiment.
.. but you haven't been reading my mail :lol:
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Luis, I do that sort of thing to help myself and prove concept too.
The tough practical decision sometimed is whether to make a Library class of static functions or take the guts of it and write it in-line ..
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Le, that's a good point and I presume a book written by a lisper would be way better for lispers than someone coming from vba/vb. I'm just starting to do the same things with C#, make functions that mimic the functions I use in vba, and the distance example you give took me 20 mins to find Math.Pow as I was looking for something with squared in it.
I think the lure for a book by Kerry for me is that, if Kerry gives an example , it will work, whereas the labs start off all wrong and so you are never sure if the next thing will work.
I come from spending so many years in the lisp arena, and the last three+ in c++ had help me doing the transaction to c#, I was more saying that a book that could have a "conversion table" would be a plus, it is pretty obvious that not everything can be mimic, I am in that process right now, and most of the times I have to redo everything, if it is in c++ or c#.
included is a image with a vba-to-c++ conversion table (portion)
Wish you Kerry, a lot of success on your book!
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If I hadn't already spent my $5, I would give it a go. Vba to C# isn't that easy for me and since you cant just run something to find out if it works, I have the feeling that it would be a lot less frustrating to learn vb.net then learn C#.
Although many slam vba, it's the kind of program I want. Memory management is one of the good things touted by Net, thank goodness for that, I don't really want or need to know how computors work (Well not at the cost.) and didn't have to with Vba. I know I'll get to like net in the long run, but it is a shame to me that vba is getting the boot. Of couse, to be fair, if lisp suddenly didn't work I wouldn't be that bummed.
Ahhh, the age old question "Which language to learn".
A few years back I went the C# route.
Looking back I think VB.NET would have been a good choice too.
Having that book by Jerry Winters (C# AutoCAD) is a big advantage. I used his books when learning VBA. I highly recommend anything he writes. They may not be the technical manuals that some programmers want but for me they teach better than any other book.
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Being the rather lame hack that I am, I have to go with Luis and Bryco on this one. The fact that Kerry is involved has already piqued my interest greatly.
I've been dragging my feet for the last ten or so years waiting on the "right" language to grab, and I think C# may be the one. Writing it from an old lispers viewpoint would be a definite plus for me, but not necessary, but then you'd need to start simple for an old hack like me also. One of my biggest complaints about any book on any language is the assumption of the writer that his audience understands a particular concept or phrase simply because it is common place to the writer. (My first endeavor into a Civil program some twenty years ago, and the very first page of the book spoke of DTMs and TINs with not a single bloody word of explanation of what the heck they were, took a week to dig up).
Now for the format of the book; I like the dictionary approach with examples, however I like to see expanded “real” application examples as well. The AutoCAD lisp function help file is a perfect example of what NOT to do with the dictionary approach, (look at Developer Help->Lisp Functions->BOOLE) where the examples given don’t give any clue at all about how to actually use the function in the real world. Sort of, “Here’s how to use it to toggle “PickFirst”, <example code> and it works because this does that, and that does this, and that over there does the other thing. I guess I’m looking not so much for the function definition as I am the “finesse” of its use in application. (Did any of that make any sense at all?)
I’ve paid nearly a hundred bucks for books that turned out to be little more than a door stop, and I’ve paid just a few bucks for books that turned out to be extremely useful. This might send Se8en off the beam, but for a book that will take me by the hand and walk me from “Wuts see-pound?” to truly understanding the concepts of the basic functions, I’d gladly pay a hundred bucks or more. But hey, that’s just me.
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If you want to learn C# for AutoCAD you should probably learn C# first. Try here (http://www.google.com/search?q=C%23+tutorial&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
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Couldn't agree with Tim more. Learn the language first, then it's application to AutoCAD.
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...............
Having that book by Jerry Winters (C# AutoCAD) .
That was VB.net ... not C# .. yes ?
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Couldn't agree with Tim more. Learn the language first, then it's application to AutoCAD.
me three ..
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.............. but for a book that will take me by the hand and walk me from “Wuts see-pound?” to truly understanding the concepts of the basic functions, ..............
The MS Express editions and the video tutorials with their notes and web page tutorials aren't a bad place to start ... all at no monetary cost.
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Agree with Kerry - the shear volume of good info on MSDN is quite amazing, especially the webcast stuff.
You could also go to the Beginner Developer Learning Centre (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/beginner/)
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.............. but for a book that will take me by the hand and walk me from “Wuts see-pound?” to truly understanding the concepts of the basic functions, ..............
The MS Express editions and the video tutorials with their notes and web page tutorials aren't a bad place to start ... all at no monetary cost.
I agree as well, and that is where I'm currently trolling as I get time. My comments were related to how I would like to see a book constructed (at least one for which I'd pay large duckies).
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The MS Express editions and the video tutorials with their notes and web page tutorials aren't a bad place to start ... all at no monetary cost.
I agree as well, and that is where I'm currently trolling as I get time. My comments were related to how I would like to see a book constructed (at least one for which I'd pay large duckies).
I hear you Randy;
Coming from AutoLISP and moving from there to C++/MFC/ARX and now getting into C# has been a long road (as it is for so many).
I do AGREE with the comments from those that know and "have been there done that" experience.
Now, from my own experience, expending so many years lisping, you get a habit a BAD habit, hard to describe but it gets more difficult to learn an object oriented language, so maybe if someone come up with a conversion tables from autolisp to C# and step by step conversion of real world routines autolisp samples to/ported C#. That can be a great source if it is target of course to the lisp community.
Have fun.
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Late for this party but let me express my kudos in advance to those that would bring this to fruition.
:)
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I got my copy of "VB.Net Programming for Autocad Customization" by Jerry Winters today. I hope to use it to translate all my VBA to C#. I'll post back after I have read a little of it
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Ahhh, the age old question "Which language to learn".
A few years back I went the C# route.
Looking back I think VB.NET would have been a good choice too.
There isn't a whole lot of difference between VB.NET and C#.NET. I personally prefer C#, because I don't like Basic syntax, but others prefer VB because they don't like braces and semicolons. Both of them use the same frameworks, though, so in practice, they are really quite similar.
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I am working on a Bill of Material program for work, nothing fancy just external database reads/writes, drawing database reads/writes and drawing the geometry. I started the project in C#, got 1/4 of the way through and thought to myself "Man this is taking a lot longer than it should". I ditched C# Express Edition for SharpDevelop, used SharpDevelop to convert my C# code to BOO (http://boo.codehaus.org/) and after about 5 minutes of fixes that the code converter screwed up I was back on my feet coding away in BOO. I'd say I'm realistically about 2 to 3 times more productive coding in BOO instead of C# and it debugs, compiles and runs in AutoCAD without a hitch.
If I can find some spare time over the next week or so I'd be willing to craft a quick intro on how to manipulate AutoCAD via it's .NET interface with BOO if anyone were interested. If not I won't bother.
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I'd probably be interested. I haven't tried anything with BOO yet, but I'm already a fan of Python. It looks to me like Boo is a compiled language that is very-much like Python - is that the case?
I've been moderately-happy with C# - it's much easier to code with than C++ - but if Boo can create basically the same CIL code as C# and is easier/faster to code with, then I'm interested...
Have you done much with it? Is there anything you've tried to do and couldn't, because the language doesn't support it yet?
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I'd probably be interested. I haven't tried anything with BOO yet, but I'm already a fan of Python. It looks to me like Boo is a compiled language that is very-much like Python - is that the case?
I've been moderately-happy with C# - it's much easier to code with than C++ - but if Boo can create basically the same CIL code as C# and is easier/faster to code with, then I'm interested...
Have you done much with it? Is there anything you've tried to do and couldn't, because the language doesn't support it yet?
Yes BOO is very much like python, however there are quite a few differences, like type declaration. This isn't really a problem though, I code in python 90% of the time and I haven't had any trouble getting used to BOO's syntax. If you want to compare the languages differences of C# and BOO see here (http://boo.codehaus.org/Differences+with+Csharp).
I haven't done much with it other than the project I'm working on now. I have yet to run into anything that has given me a significant amount of trouble. For the project I'm using things like WinForms, ODBC and managing all the drawing database stuff, which isn't something trivial like a console app. It seems to be working out well for me.
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I would also be interested in more information/examples
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I hope you did not give up on it.
Put me down for one.
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Thread officially zombified - Put me down for a copy of your book also, Kerry!
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Thanks guys,
I think about it every couple of months ... then real life takes over again :)
... and then there is the issue of capability and expectations ...
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Thanks guys,
I think about write a little for it every couple of months ... then real life takes over again :)
... and then there is the issue of capability and expectations ...
To offer you some encouragement, perhaps this slight change will help to make all the difference? :wink:
FWIW - I've only been developing for 1+ year with Visual LISP predominantly, so coming from a Visual LISPer's point of view, David M Stein's written some VLISP books that read well and I felt offered some great framework for moving from 'What is a defun?' to 'how to apply a namespace to a object oriented routine...' Hence my Thanks David (http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=39403.0) thread.
Again, not being sure of the target audience you had in mind, but if I *had* to be more technically capable prior to reading your book, then I'd find a way to finish all 590 pages of the C# Bible (http://node1.nirvanix.com/GOZ8GQmM~--HJsi4JNK~H8RATzrK~cHjQVUFCL2~FQ2mvkA/FreeDrive/fd_170255/C%20sharp/Wiley%20-%20C%23.Bible.pdf?disposition=attachment) first... You know, if I *had* to. :-P LoL
Having an understanding of others' expectations is great, but ultimately it comes down to your decision(s) - you can't write the book for everyone else - you have to write it for you. My $0.02
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you can't write the book for everyone else - you have to write it for you. My $0.02
I guess a book written for yourself and not others would be worth $0.02
The way I see it is the market is not really huge, but except for Jerry Winters book I do not think there are any other books.
Would get the C# crowd interested.
There is a ton of great resources for .NET out so it might not be worth it to cover much .NET?
Although you see comments all the time as if .NET does not exists except for AutoCAD development.
I would rather read 10 pages explaining how it works than a bunch of examples.
What I think is really missing is well written, well ordered, book explaining the API, which I guess takes a good understanding of ObjectARX.
So I guess you will send the first draft within in month? :?
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you can't write the book for everyone else - you have to write it for you. My $0.02
I guess a book written for yourself and not others would be worth $0.02
A book written for others and not yourself... isn't that what Congress does?
Of course an author writes a book to/for an audience; they want to make sales. I simply meant that if there's nothing about the book that personally drives him (Kerry), then he won't be motivated to write it in the first place.
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you can't write the book for everyone else - you have to write it for you. My $0.02
I guess a book written for yourself and not others would be worth $0.02
A book written for others and not yourself... isn't that what Congress does?
Of course an author writes a book to/for an audience; they want to make sales. I simply meant that if there's nothing about the book that personally drives him (Kerry), then he won't be motivated to write it in the first place.
Knew what you meant and agree and was just joking,
maybe I need to learn to use those smiley things.
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you can't write the book for everyone else - you have to write it for you. My $0.02
I guess a book written for yourself and not others would be worth $0.02
A book written for others and not yourself... isn't that what Congress does?
Of course an author writes a book to/for an audience; they want to make sales. I simply meant that if there's nothing about the book that personally drives him (Kerry), then he won't be motivated to write it in the first place.
Knew what you meant and agree and was just joking,
maybe I need to learn to use those smiley things.
My mistake... I took your comment(s) literally. I'll try to stop being so serious. LoL
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Please tell me this is a real project :/
What sort if information would YOU expect to find in a book on C# Programming for AutoCAD {taming the beast}® ?
What would you pay for it { us$ } ?
*taming : transitive verb (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary-tb?book=Dictionary&va=taming+)
1 a : to reduce from a wild to a domestic state
b : to subject to cultivation
c : to bring under control :
*beast : noun (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary-tb?book=Dictionary&va=beast)
3 : something formidably difficult to control or deal with