Topic: Vault for Civil 3D - Webinars/videos

[Matt__W]

Does anyone have any links to some good "Intro to Vault for Civil 3D" videos or webinars?  Most of my searching so far has come up with Vault for Inventor.     Anything would be helpful.  Thanks!

[mjfarrell]

Do you have specific questions?

And are you currently using Data Shortcuts?

[Matt__W]

Let me just say that I don't know what I don't know.

[mjfarrell]

Let me just say that I don't know what I don't know.

OK,

Then the answers are

Yes

No

Sometimes

Mostly

and

Not if you do it that way.

The biggest weakness Vault depends on the user to fill in a form as to what or why they are editing a file
It makes a copy of every file that is ever opened (file back up nightmare)
It allows a user to check out a file, it does not force them to check them back in.

It is a Vesrion control application, not a document managment system as it is touted to be.

And as you most likely already know it is also no longer FREE  ;(

[Wedding]

Matt,

Here are a few videos you can peruse to get some idea of how Civil 3D and Vault Collaboration AEC can work together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGm7bHVyJ2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1FGrvHOu0

And here's an AU class I taught last year that hits on Vault in the last 45 or so. I spend 30 talking about why BIM matters to civil engineers, but then get into how Vault implements part of that vision.

http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=class&session_id=9302

Please let me know if I can answer questions. I would prefer a direct e-mail discussion or a call with you and your reseller to working here in a thread. Shoot me a direct message here and we can make future connections if you'd like.

Hope this helps.

[mjfarrell]

Why are you unwilling to discuss this product in the open James?

Are you trying to SELL Matt on Vault or Help him?

BIM is a proccess and Vault is a product, and neither have anything to do with each other.

I would love to see this topic discussed in the open...what do you have to hide?

[Wedding]

Because Michael, I grow tired of the conspiracy theories and the sideways jabs and the other baggage that comes with having a conversation within earshot of you. Nothing is ever good enough or clear enough or whatever enough to suit you, so I'm not going to engage if I can help it. Matt's can decide if that's unsuitable, that's his call.

I'm trying to help him find information about Vault, and if he wants I'll be happy to demo it for him. You might call that sales, you might call that help. I honestly don't care what you call it, it's what I can offer him.

We agree that BIM is a process and Vault is a product, but a product can help implement a process. Building is a process, a hammer is a product, I wouldn't build without a hammer.

Anyway, there's your answer.

Matt, you know how to contact me if you'd like. Back to my lurking.

[mjfarrell]

You are missing the bigger potential, to know only answer Matts questions, rather to potentially win myself as an ally of Vault in the process.
The fact that you will not have this discussion in the open only fuelts the 'conspiracy' theorist in me.
I'm realy not that hard to convince with facts, not marketing hype.

BIM is a process and one can do BIM without Vault.

The fact that you want to involve the reseller in this makes it sound far more like a sale than an offer to assist.

If Vault is so great, let's let everyone see it for themselves right here.

[mjfarrell]

On a side note James, I find it interesting that you and by extension autodesk would chose to not have dialogue with your most passionate users of the product.  If this is a reflection of corporate policy you must understand how that impedes product development.  Keep in mind one of the axioms of the business world, if you don't take care of your customers, someone else will.
It would seem to me at times Bentley does a better job of listenting to the complaints of autocad users than autodesk does.

It's a shame you don't share Kate M's attitude:

Yes, I work for Autodesk. No, you don't have to censor your opinion. I can take it.

[sinc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGm7bHVyJ2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1FGrvHOu0

And here's an AU class I taught last year that hits on Vault in the last 45 or so. I spend 30 talking about why BIM matters to civil engineers, but then get into how Vault implements part of that vision.

http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=class&session_id=9302

Don't want to get involved in your argument with MJ Farrell, just want to offer my observations...

Don't see how your first link offers anything much better than what we can do in default C3D with no Vault server.  And a Vault server is a PITA for small companies.

Your second link is mostly an add for Buzzsaw.

Your third link is restricted to only people with AU Online access.

So while I'm a big fan of you, personally, I don't see this post as being particularly useful to most users of C3D...

[sinc]

Of course, I'm not a big fan of "BIM", since I see it as being a "buzzword".  And I've seen enough of those.

It's all fine to say "BIM is a process", but everyone in the industry seems to have a different idea of what that means.  And a lack of standardization makes it useless.  Until our industry can come to a consensus of what "BIM" means (aka achieve a "standard"), it's still just a useless buzzword.  And having worked in the software industry for 20 years, I've seen the difference between a "buzzword" and a "standard".  Same thing goes for this industry.  "BIM" is a buzzword.

[mjfarrell]

Don't want to get involved in your argument with MJ Farrell, just want to offer my observations...

We are not having an arguement, I've invited his good self to engage in a conversation.

However he seems to want to avoid having an open discussion.

[mjfarrell]

Of course, I'm not a big fan of "BIM", since I see it as being a "buzzword".  And I've seen enough of those.

It's all fine to say "BIM is a process", but everyone in the industry seems to have a different idea of what that means.  And a lack of standardization makes it useless.  Until our industry can come to a consensus of what "BIM" means (aka achieve a "standard"), it's still just a useless buzzword.  And having worked in the software industry for 20 years, I've seen the difference between a "buzzword" and a "standard".  Same thing goes for this industry.  "BIM" is a buzzword.

I agree completely.  There are people tossing BIM around like they actually know what it means.
And for the most part a "Building Information Model" has little if anything to do with Civil Infrastucture projects.
Then you compound that with the fact that the people that will administer the lifecycle of the majority of Civil Infrastructure projects are really in need of GIS tools that will read the Civil Model objects.
However Autodesk has not seen fit to allow MAP; their GIS Application to even recognize the Civil model Objects.
Leading to a completely broken axel approach to BIM from a Civil perspective.  The idea being a unified and consistent model from concept of the project-through out it's lifecycle, until it is ultimately demolished, recycled and reused.  At present one can in no way achieve that level of BIM for a civil project as the data must be 'exported' from Civil 3D into other formats to be of any use thereby breaking the first premise of BIM; the unified model.

I would almost be willing to wager that more people know what a Bong is and how it works; as compared to what BIM really is and how it should work. 

[Wedding]

You are missing the bigger potential, to know only answer Matts questions....

Fair enough. It's Saturday, none of my games are on, let's see what comes of this.

Couple of basics from my end. For the point of this discussion, I am ALWAYS talking about Vault Collaboration AEC. The free Vault that comes with all Autocad products as part of their subscription doesn't really work well with Civil 3D beyond basic check in and out. No real sense in it in a Civil 3D workflow. I have no further comment on the subject.

Let's start with a basic question: What problem are you trying to solve? If the answer is purely CAD or C3D related, we can stop the Vault discussion and move on. There are other options as Sinc pointed out, and many of them are simpler to implement. If you're trying to solve bigger business questions: Who modified that file last? What PM approved that file for construction? Does the contractor have the changes we made five minutes ago? Have you sent those revised plans to all 10 of our partners on this project? How do I keep the engineers out of my plat? Those are questions that Vault can help address.

We talk about the Collaboration version because THAT'S the problem we're trying to solve: How do we play well together. VC is designed to work in conjunction with Buzzsaw (which is included with VC as a Subscription benefit, hence my earlier link) to handle the review, release and distribution of data and documents inside and outside the firewall. With VC, you can establish categories of data, assign those categories to specific lifecycles (work in progress, under review, approved for bidding, approved for construction, etc.) and establish security around each of those states based on user permissions. The trifecta of category, state, and user create a security model to insure that the right people in your team always have access to the data they should have access to, and with the proper authority to make changes. Additionally, at any point along the way, you can establish rules for publishing that data outside the firewall to a Buzzsaw site that you control. Using Buzzsaw notifications, Sync, and mobile apps, your partners can have up to the minute design changes in their hands nearly the minute your PM has approved them.

As Michael rightly noted, it's great to talk about the subject. I'm happy to answer specific product questions as best I can.

[mjfarrell]

James please check your sources. There is no longer any FREE version of Vault shipping with Civil 3D. The subscription only vault is of such little value it alone shouldnt even be considered a 'benefit' to being on subscription. (Note: it is also not FREE, given one can only get it by buying into the subscription program.  So let's not call it free)

Internal use of Usergroups and file permissions can accoplish much of what you state is possible through VC.  That same thing is true of managing ones FTP files and folders, or through use of VPN technology. 
From what I've read above you still haven't established a solid business case for anyone to expend the money to purchase Vault.

Even with the up to the mintute reports about who downloaded what files when.
If we are having that conversation with our collaborators, there is already a problem in the workflow; and knowing that they did or did not download our latestest files isn't going to solve that problem.
If we are worried about what PM aproved a paticual plan or change, we have other organisational issue that no software product can solve. (Hello HR department)

Really I can't see anything solved by VC, that good internal practices,  communication, or use of file permissions doesn't resolve.

Could be this is where the reseller comes into the equation; and he SELLS me on the idea that spending money on this product is a good idea.

[sinc]

I would almost be willing to wager that more people know what a Bong is and how it works; as compared to what BIM really is and how it should work.

We're in an industry that THRIVES on standardization.  Sure, some of those vary due to location, but there still tend to be standards for wherever we work.

Same thing in the computer industry.  If we didn't have standards, we'd have no internet.  If every individual company had their own version of something similar to TCP/IP or UDP/IP, we'd have no connectivity at all.

SOME central body needs to be in charge of deciding what "BIM" means, and how it's implemented.  We've made a start, with LandXML, but that's very limited in what it can transfer, and is also implemented differently in different vendors, meaning it can't be fully trusted.

It's a mess right now...  We (as a community) need to sort it out...  And that involves getting all the "Big Players" (like Autodesk, among others) involved in hashing out the solutions in a collaborative way.  Which probably means some sort of independent entity, such as ISO, IEEE, and IETF that helped create a working internet that now benefits all of us.

[bdough15]

Wedding:  Serious question on this.  In an office of 25 or less do you really see a need to have something tracking all that when you can do basically the same thing with Windows Explorer and little old fashioned disscussion between the parties involved?  We have had several Architects that want us to use their "BIM" network to coordinate but they never seem to work right since at the end of the project we have no where near completed Structural Plans and the Architect and Structural are using a site plan from three weeks before as their final product despite the fact that we uploaded the latest and greatest the day it was done.  To me it seems like Vault may be useful to a large Company where there is no idea what one person is doing at any one time, I worked in this type of environment in the past and I could see how the Vault would useful there but in a smaller Company it seems like VCault would be much more of a hassle than a help.

[mjfarrell]

Vault is a product in search of a reason to exist.

As stated in previous and emphasized by the above.
If you are hacing the issues that Vault is supposed to solve, or eliminate you have bigger problems,
that no softare can save you from.

Poor management of projects, persons, or resources can not be resolved through software.

[bdough15]

Poor management of projects, persons, or resources can not be resolved through software.

MJ, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about it! 

[Wedding]

Wedding: In an office of 25 or less do you really see a need to have something tracking all that when you can do basically the same thing with Windows Explorer and little old fashioned disscussion between the parties involved? 

I absolutely think it makes sense in a small office. I think the Eng vs Surveyor debate is one that never seems to end, no matter the size of the company, and in my opinion, changing permissions as data moves through an approval process is pretty painful using Windows. Done automatically with Vault (after setup of course.)

The other piece that I find important is the automatic distribution of data to my outside collaborators. I once did a review on a Tech that was spending 4 hours a week on collaborating and data transfer. He handled many of the "Please send me X,Y, Z," requests as well as the "Here's an e-mail from so and so, put it in the right place," type information. If I could only cut that in HALF (still wasting 2 hours a week, IMO,) at a billing rate of 80$/hour, 52 weeks a year, that's 8,320 a year. That's more than enough to make a positive ROI on a Vault Collaboration installation. I fully agree that I won't have that impact across the full company, but there's time savings for all parties. With Vault, my partners never have to ask me to send them the latest, they already have it up on Buzzsaw, the minute my PM has approved and released it. They can access it from their computer, from their iPad, from their whatever. That's a level of service you can offer to your clients that I think makes for good business.

I agree with Michael that nothing can save you from poor management, but that doesn't mean you can't solve some of the problems and make life easier.

[mjfarrell]

The issue with windows file permissions outlined above is not that difficult to resolve.

The issue(s) about distribution is also resolved through use of an FTP site and user permissions as well.
If one manged the technology, some guy is not being bothered to send anyone any files.
As they would be loaded to the FTP site and a simple link would be all that needed to be distributed.
I think the numbers used above are either an exaggeration, or an example of poor data (time) management practices.

And we agree that software alone can not solve thaat problem.

[mjfarrell]

UPDATE:

The client I am training in Qatar has just passed on a multi-thousand pound purchase of VAULT
as autodesk can not resolve serious issue with the Vault 2012 plug-in even after custom writing several
hot fixes in an effort to secure the sale to this particular client.