Author Topic: AUTO LINE DRAW  (Read 13750 times)

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Dent Cermak

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AUTO LINE DRAW
« on: April 18, 2006, 12:16:25 PM »
We are trying to get the most out of the figure prefix library and the automatic line draw feature.  Does anyone have a complete list of the data collector codes that LDD will recognize? I already know about "B"Begin, "E" End, "C3"3 Point Curve, "R"Recall and the Continue commands. Are there any other data collector commands that affect the auto line draw functions?

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2006, 06:21:57 PM »
16 views and no answer?? Am I the only one using the figure prefix libraray in a civil engineering world? Surely not!   :-o Or is this one of those "secret" things ??  :|

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2006, 06:25:34 PM »
Sorry Dent, my outfit won't even load it on the computer even though they have it . . . go figure

EDIT

there is a link to MJFarrell a few pages back.  He would be sure to know.  I just sent an SOS last night or I would ask him for you.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 05:23:13 PM »
Dino, you are not telling me that when you get the field data you do the "connect the dots" thing are you?

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2006, 05:36:44 PM »
Yes sir, I am.  According to them, it is easier for me to do that than them having to learn how to use a modern program . . . I guess that it IS . . . for them.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2006, 05:50:35 PM »
So they don't mind paying you for several hours of work that I can do in about 15 seconds? I know they will say that it will take longer in the field, but our use shows a 10% increase in field time once you get the system set up.AND, if I initially turn on my descriptor keys, I get all blocks and all lines in 30 seconds max. Oh well, it's a surveyor driven thing and we are stuck with the "we have always done it this way" syndrome.
So you have to decide what the site looks like and how all them curbs hookup just from the shots. Or do they make you go to the field? I am supporting offices in Pensacola and Birmingham, so a site walk is out of the question.
We are trying to expand this system using the new data collectors where the PC can see the shots as they are made. Then they can see if their line work comes in correctly and make sure they have everything. Get that .FBK file and WHOOP!! THERE IT IS!! It's called "Maximizing Profits".

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2006, 06:19:31 PM »
The party chief has a rinky little program that supposedly connects a few things, but it works about half the time for curbs (generating ridiculous curb returns when it does) and property lines if they plug in the correct code.  It is also not very com patable with 2004 drawings and several layers come in with no name.  The stuff is there but it can't display because the layer isn't defined.  Everything also comes in with color and linetype hard coded.  I still have to insert all of the symbols and do most of the linework myself so for most small sites it is better to not get the linework it generates.  And yes, sometimes I HAVE had to go out myself to clarify things, but usually I can have them explain themselves the next morning before they go out.

Even though they have current versions of LDT and Civil 3D at their disposal, everyone higher up the food chain than I use them like it was still r9 and DCA.  I have seen them throw tantrums when they tried to work in a drawing with a paperspace viewport.  They tried to tell me I couldn't use viewports until I pointed out that their then new EaglePoint would not work without them.  Now I am real glad I am home or I might have to walk out in protest

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2006, 09:15:18 PM »
I feel your pain, Bro!! :mrgreen:

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2006, 09:12:08 PM »
Dino, I have searched the member list and every freaking page of this topic and can't find Mr. Farrell's link anywhere. Could you axe him to check this post and edumacate me?  ^-^

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2006, 09:23:35 PM »
Dino, I have searched the member list and every freaking page of this topic and can't find Mr. Farrell's link anywhere. Could you axe him to check this post and edumacate me?  ^-^

Here you go Dent.  I think he is doing a training session this week so he may not be checking messages very frequently.

To all users, should you find yourself locked into some mortal combat with Land Desktop, Civil Design, Survey, Civil 3d, or MAP please feel free to forward your post directly to my EMAIL
In this way I offer a Life Raft, or Escape Pod for your use, as you sail the SWAMP!

mjfarrell

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 10:43:45 PM »
And the winners are...


BEGIN
 CONT
  START
   END
    RECALL
     C3
       PRC
        PC
         PT
And the underdocumented; Offset that works great for drawing the other side of the
wall

Also noet that all of this dovetails with your Figure Pref, and your Description Keys, and having proper layers already in your DWT.

Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2006, 09:20:18 AM »
Thank you sir. I like the note about the dwt file. I was beginning to think that I was the only one here using the dwt too.

MSTG007

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2006, 11:07:15 AM »
How would you use this for the fields guys when collecting data???? to use the above codes?

thxs
Civil3D 2020

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 12:59:53 PM »
When they start shooting a feature, sat the edge of an asphalt road, they would enter "B EA" in the data collector. When they have shot as far as the can they then would type in "END". They would repeat this for all lineal features. When they pick back up on that last asphalt shot they would enter "B EA" and then "R what ever that last shot number was" ie "R 145" and then start shooting the road again. When they have shot as far as they can again, the type in "END".
If your figure prefix library and DWT file are set up correctly, when you import your FBK file, the lines will be automatically be drawn for you.
You can see the time savings there vs node to node line work. EVERYTHING in about 5 seconds. Really.
Tell you what, go to your setup and see what abbreviations are listed under you Figure Prefix Library and let me know what they are. I think there is a short library pre-loaded with LDD. If so I can send you an FBK file with the codes in it. Some of the linework should come in and give you a general idea of how this works.
Better yet I will see about putting one on the Lily Pond so everybody can play. Just got to find one that I can release. (Oh, the program will give an error something like "Figure not defined yet" , just tell it to IGNORE ALL. We already know it's not defined.

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2006, 01:29:41 PM »
MSTG007 - Just for clarification . . . I know you are doing a lot of Civil 3D now.  This only works with LDT currently.  2007 Civil 3D is supposed to have survey built in, so this functionality MAY be included then.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2006, 01:41:15 PM »
True. Whenever the new Land development desktop/ Civil3d, or however they are going to do it, comes out, this capability should be there. If you have a copy of the 2005 survey pack or 2006 or any pack that has the figure prefix library option in it, then the little file I just put in my folder on the Lilly pond may knock your socks off. LILLY POND/ DENT/ 5081TOPO.FBK
Give it a shot and see if, even though your figure prefix library isn't set up yet, enough will come in to give you an idea of the possibilities.

Jeff_M

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2006, 03:32:57 PM »
Quote from: Dinosaur
.... functionality MAY be included then.
It is :-)

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2006, 03:40:30 PM »
Good . . . perhaps I can win the battle on that front.  We have spent BIG bucks the last few years on GPS and Robotic setups, but they refuse to give an inch on something they already have.  On the other hand, if the darned thing starts drawing itself I may get to go the long road home kicking rocks.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2006, 03:49:40 PM »
Dino, import my field book into your setup and tell me what happens ? I think some of the line work will come in. be interesting to know. But it will have to be into your LDT. I don't think it will do in Eagle Point.

MSTG007

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 04:03:12 PM »
Dudes, Dino, Yup. I do use Civil 3D for Design, but as for processing FBKs I do still use LDD 2k5. And we only use B C3 E and thats it.

I was hoping there was an easier way but it works... Right now, we have alittle glitch in our processing when we take the RAW to a FBK. Lines do not end and we have to edit the FBK to make it end... strange I know...

But i was also told you can use this:

http://www.i-boards.com/bnp/pob/messages.asp?MsgID=513585&ThreadID=49971&IsResponse=False#513585

Chk this page... has alot!
Civil3D 2020

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2006, 04:06:30 PM »
All I seem to get from this are 12 very short polylines, one that is a bit longer and one long polyline.  I did see it trying to draw the stuff.  We of course have nothing set up for this in the template.  Is that the problem?

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 04:14:01 PM »
Probably. When set up, it draws a parking lot to include the curb lines anf all stripes, plust tops, toes, etc. you can open the field book file in either windows exploreer in notepad or in AutoCad under the edit a field book file and see the items it's trying to draw by the codes. Perhaps if you set up the ea, top, toe etc in your figure prefix library?

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2006, 04:15:35 PM »
Thanks, I'll give it a try after I get the surveyors their storm sewer points on Monday.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2006, 04:23:56 PM »
Look in the Lilly Pond under my folder at the linetest.dwg file. That is what you get on importing a fieldbook when autoline draw is set up. If I had checked the box for descriptor keys, all of my symbol blocks would be there too.
Just had an interesting phone call from Mr. Farrell. Somebody needs to give him some Valium!  :-D Oh, if I just knew a third of what he does!! Maybe one day I can talk my boss into paying for one of Mike's classes. I will start trying Monday AM when BIGBOSSMAN gets back in town.
Anyway, take a look at that dwg file and realize that that is 3 SECONDS worth of work.

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2006, 05:22:34 PM »
. . . Just had an interesting phone call from Mr. Farrell. Somebody needs to give him some Valium!  :-D Oh, if I just knew a third of what he does!! Maybe one day I can talk my boss into paying for one of Mike's classes. I will start trying Monday AM when BIGBOSSMAN gets back in town . . .
No Dent, That is him ON Valium.  The first time I talked with him was when he woke me with a 7:00am phone call on a Sunday morning.  Good luck getting that training, it will be well worth the price.  I paid my own way + air fare to North Carolina for mine a year ago this weekend and have never regretted it.

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2006, 07:24:08 PM »
Yes sir, I am.  According to them, it is easier for me to do that than them having to learn how to use a modern program . . . I guess that it IS . . . for them.

I can't believe that.

We stopped joining the dots 4 years after I started working in survey. That was 20 years ago!!!!!!!!

I thought our surveyors could be stubborn but that's just rediculous!!!!

I really feel for you. :cry:

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2006, 07:37:42 PM »
Welcome to the "Ten Percent". According to my VAR, that's the percentage of users that don't do the dot to dot or lines by sequential point numbers.
It's good that so many have so much time to waste.  :evil:

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2006, 07:52:17 PM »
Welcome to the "Ten Percent". According to my VAR, that's the percentage of users that don't do the dot to dot or lines by sequential point numbers.
It's good that so many have so much time to waste.  :evil:

Our surveyors must be the black sheep of the profession. They do as much on site as they can. Basically all they do back in the office is do any translation to the file and amend any crossing breaklines. We haven't gone fully Civil3D yet but the 3rd party survey package that we have will even attach a kerb profile to a string which will create a 3D model.

Forgive me if my terminology is slightly different us convicts have grown up in a different environment.  ;-)

Makes it hard to get involved in the indepth Civil3D discussions as we use a 3rd party program (Advanced Road Design) also for road design. It's actually starting to be shipped internationally now.

Occasionally I need to do a little bit of fine tuning for the triangular mesh but most of the time the survey is ready to go.

I just find it hard to believe that everyone is not using such a time saving feature. No disrepect to surveyors but that part of the whole design process is one of the most repetitive parts that can be automated.

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2006, 08:15:17 PM »
Some old hounds just can't handle it when you move their dinner dish.  These guys also don't understand the benefits of viewports and paperspace, sheetset manager or even the use of sheet sets, fields, tables or any thing to do with MAP queries or cleanup operations.  Today for the 3rd time in 18 months it has been decreed that Civil 3D was just too complicated and impossible to work with (because they have rejected the idea of ANY form of training) that two projects already started with it are to be converted to LDT (which they also don't don't know how to use - ie Autoline draw).

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2006, 08:26:35 PM »
Dino,

I really feel for you.

I know how frustrated I can get here with surveyors who even budge as much as ours have.

Hopefully you'll get some in some day that will be open to modern ideas.

Good luck.

Craig

Jeff_M

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2006, 08:28:14 PM »
PMFJI here, but I happen to be among the 90% but wish to be among the 10%. To make matters worse, our survey dept. still utilizes an old TOPCON GTS-3B without a DC....yep, hand written field notes.....for about 60% of our surveys. The other 40% is done with a much more modern GTS-802 that at least has DC on board.

So I guess my questions are these:
Can someone post or PM me with an itemized list of what I need to setup and how to instruct the filed crews to obtain/record the shots?
I tried out Dent's FBK and could only say WOW. But I have always seen our crews do their shots in more of cross section fashion. Dent's appear to all be in a string/linear fashion. How are the BEGIN END qualifiers input to the DC?

Forgive me if these are mundane inquiries, but I have led a sheltered life for the past 20 years...about the only thing I have managed to do tech-wise is stay within 4 releases of the current Acad/LDD release.

Dinosaur

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2006, 08:44:40 PM »
Dent will know more about it than I, But I think as long as the surveyors put the right code on the shot the program will work regardless the order the shots are taken.  It would probably make their work easier though, if they clustered the codes as much as possible for certain features( ie around a curb return or the corners of a storm box).

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2006, 08:55:40 PM »
PMFJI here, but I happen to be among the 90% but wish to be among the 10%. To make matters worse, our survey dept. still utilizes an old TOPCON GTS-3B without a DC....yep, hand written field notes.....for about 60% of our surveys. The other 40% is done with a much more modern GTS-802 that at least has DC on board.

So I guess my questions are these:
Can someone post or PM me with an itemized list of what I need to setup and how to instruct the filed crews to obtain/record the shots?
I tried out Dent's FBK and could only say WOW. But I have always seen our crews do their shots in more of cross section fashion. Dent's appear to all be in a string/linear fashion. How are the BEGIN END qualifiers input to the DC?

Forgive me if these are mundane inquiries, but I have led a sheltered life for the past 20 years...about the only thing I have managed to do tech-wise is stay within 4 releases of the current Acad/LDD release.
Jeff,

First of all let me re-iterate that I'm in Australia and may use slightly different methods and equipment/software. If you would like I can get some details on what our surveyors use.

We've always picked up our survey data in a cross section format as I believe this is the most accurate way of doing it (VC's can cause problems if you miss a point on the cross section). We use a string number for each feature. So say your left edge of bitumen would be coded as 011403.
01=String number
1=contourable
403=feature code (Edge of bitumen)

Centre line would be 021401
02=String number
1=Contourable
401=Feature code (Centre line)

and so on. The software will automatically string up each string in point number numerical order.

I have no idea if this is how your guys do it over there, but it does seem logical to do it that way.

Anyone else please chime in if we're that far different from you guys.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2006, 09:34:03 PM »
That will indeed work, but it's WAY too complicated for my Mississippi rednecks. I employ the KISS system. First of all, a field file shot lineraly is just as accurate as shooting in x-section format. In the x-section format all you have to do is miss a shot and you are screwed.
We set up and shoot the EA.Then come back down line with the next feature, say CL of the road. Up and back, up and back. Move up to next setup. Repeat proceedure using RECALL to tie everything together. Initially it took about 10% longer to do it this way. The office savings offset that initial burp by far. Now a crew that knows the system takes about the same amount of time as shooting x-sectionally.
The Key is STANDARDIZING the codes. My code list is on the lilly pond. Anytime a crew comes up with something new add it to the list. This includes the abbreviations for the line work and the descriptor keys. My descriptors for the descriptor keys are my block file name. My block for a sanitary sewer manhole is named "SSMH" thats also the descriptor code.
Jeff to understand the BEGIN , END and other codes, open my FBK file with notepad or word. You will see the codes in place.Most data collectors have you key in "B EA" and the data collector will enter BEGIN EA. This ,may vary from data collector to data collector. Check the Operator's Manual for more details.
If the drawing is to be done at 1"=30', the crew takes a shot every 30 feet PLUS any breaks or features inbetween the 30 foot shots. I also suggest running a closed loop traverse around the project site and setting any spur points you may need BEFORE doing much more. Keep this in a separate file from your other shpots. DO NOT let them mix the files. This will cause greif.
I can tell you now, get ready for the old "We have never done it that way before" whines. I've been through it with all 3 offices  and soon will have to go through it again with more new crews. You have seen what it can do. Let them draw the lines while they are standing there looking at it. A drafter going out for field checks is wasted time. They need to be drawing. You want a field check? Cool send the PM. He's the one that needs to be doing that.
The trick is to come up with a system that you CAN work with and they WILL work with. Keep it simple. Keep it detailed. It works. The job I posted is a very SMALL job. Field time was 6 hours (had a LONG vertical run.) Office time 2 hours (including vicinity map, etc. Would be much faster but I type REAL slow.) The client was REAL happy with the low cost that he was billed. He WILL be back.

The key files are:
linetest.dwg = what you should get after importing the FBK file.
5081Topo.FBK= the fbk file that does all of the work. Open this with word or notepad to see how the code has been keyed in in the field.
MaptechCode.DOC+ these are all of our abbreviations for line work and block insertion.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 09:53:31 PM by Dent Cermak »

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2006, 12:10:00 AM »
That will indeed work, but it's WAY too complicated for my Mississippi rednecks. I employ the KISS system. First of all, a field file shot linearly is just as accurate as shooting in x-section format. In the x-section format all you have to do is miss a shot and you are screwed.
We set up and shoot the EA.Then come back down line with the next feature, say CL of the road. Up and back, up and back. Move up to next setup. Repeat procedure using RECALL to tie everything together. Initially it took about 10% longer to do it this way. The office savings offset that initial burp by far. Now a crew that knows the system takes about the same amount of time as shooting x-sectionally.
Dent,

I guess because we've been doing it this way for years it doesn't seem complicated to us. You have me curious.

What's a "Field file shot" ?

I've had occasions where other surveyors have taken shots along a feature and the opposing shots of one edge of bitumen to the other have been mis-matched longitudinally on a short vertical curve, this lead to the cross section being inaccurate.

I think it's a bit of 6 of one half a dozen of another. What ever works best for the person doing the design.

I do however believe that the designer needs to get out on site and have a look at the job they're designing. We do most of our work locally so it's not that big a problem.

Always interesting to see how others do their work.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2006, 08:31:08 AM »
A field book file SHOT linearly. In other words my x-sections that follow the features. That draws the line sequentially. Creating a batch sequence with x-section shots gets complicated.The way we do it, the party chief just has to keep track of the recall point numbers.
But again, it all boils down to what makes sense to you and what you can get the field crews to do.

Jeff_M

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2006, 11:23:02 AM »
Craig and Dent,
Thanks so much for the detailed descriptions. I've printed them out to go over with the field crew.

I must say I sure am leaning towards Dent's approach to the codes. A quick glance tells what the point is vs. needing to memorize dozens of numerical codes.

Thanks again,
Jeff

Craig Davis

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2006, 06:35:51 PM »
Craig and Dent,
Thanks so much for the detailed descriptions. I've printed them out to go over with the field crew.

I must say I sure am leaning towards Dent's approach to the codes. A quick glance tells what the point is vs. needing to memorize dozens of numerical codes.

Thanks again,
Jeff
Jeff,

The codes really isn't a biggy in all of it. I must admit I've thought about going back to alpha's for the codes, but the numerical system was first created by our state roads board and used by many different councils and companies. It's not as common anymore but I can pull most of the descriptions from my memory after using them for so many years.

We're getting the new pc's soon so we'll then load up the new Civil3D so then hopefully I'll get a chance at seeing what the survey package in Civil3D is like. We may be able to do away with our 3rd party program.

Once you get the surveyors to change to the new system you wont go back, and neither should they.

Good luck. If you have any questions let me know.

Craig

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2006, 07:07:59 PM »
I am not sure what comes in Civil3D, but my 2007 copy of Land Development Desktop is a LDD disk, a Survey disk and a Civil3D disk. I don't see where they have all been combined yet. OH, the other cool thing; these are cor cd's, they are dvd's. Your cd reader is now an antique. No dvd reader, no load up. That stinks. BUT now I have a good argument for adding a dvd reader.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 08:37:40 PM by Dent Cermak »

Jeff_M

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2006, 08:00:07 PM »
C3D has Survey built-in :-) Although the DataCollectorLink is no longer a part of the software.
Quote from: Help
You can use data collectors to convert collected data to field book files and subsequently import the data into Autodesk Civil 3D.

Data collectors are available with third party software including the Trimble Link, Carlson Connect, and Leica X-Change supplemental tools, which can be linked to from the Additional Tools page of the Civil 3D Media Browser or you can obtain them from the Autodesk Civil 3D Partner Products website.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2006, 12:25:32 PM »
The data collector links come with LDD and the survey pack.

Dent Cermak

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Re: AUTO LINE DRAW
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2006, 02:19:29 PM »
Clarification: LDD comes with the Civil3D Civil Design Companion. And the only disc that is dvd id the LDD disk. HOWEVER, they give you a web site www.autiodeskmediarequest.com where you can get a copy on CD. One copy per seat. So, if you do not have a dvd, there's no need to get one. dang it!