Author Topic: Lessons learned.  (Read 38668 times)

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jpostlewait

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Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2007, 08:28:06 PM »
Interesting twist in the Implementation process.
The last couple of groups of users, who were trained despite objections, have exhibited a new tactic.
They just don't use it.
Go back to the cube, carry on business as usual.
While the knowledge gained runs out their ears.
While the resolution to this resides in the corner offices, I'm struggling to come up with the proper way to present it.
Complicated question.
They fall back on the age old excuses, project deadlines, client needs, ongoing projects, blah, blah, blah.
The last option for management is to tell somebody with 30 years experience, get on the Bus or get run over by it.
On the other hand.
I sent out a questionnaire concerning our implementation efforts.
Asking for feedback on where we have been and where we are going.
My true believers replied within a half hour.
They love it and want to get moving on more stuff.
I'm pushing on.
I've got a great support network and a bunch of committed users.
I still have obstacles to overcome, but nobody ever said this was easy.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #121 on: July 01, 2007, 07:49:33 PM »
I had an answer for this one last year John.  I don't know if you didn't see it or saw and rejected it, but it amounted to letting that group have their choice to NOT use it and let the results determine the matter.  This group doesn't need just not wanting to learn for an excuse to not give it a chance.  The software itself will give more than enough ammo to anyone wanting to resist the change to make their case.  I would suspect their resistance will run out of steam with the next dwg format change.  I can not see Autodesk extending Land Desktop past the 2007 format.  At some point they will retire it and if the LDT adherents can no longer read or write files with the rest of the world, the choice will be made for them.
Now whether that choice will be Civil 3D may a different matter; at least it would be for us.  When my 2008 trial version pulled up my just completed 70 lot subdivision plat and revealed that NONE of the general line or curve annotation I had placed with 2007 existed in any form whatsoever (just all gone - POOF), my armor protecting this experiment was destroyed along with a good sized chunk of my own resolve.  Starting last week, other solutions including Inroads XM and EaglePoint are being actively researched.

Dent Cermak

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #122 on: July 01, 2007, 08:31:29 PM »
Don't forget Carlson. I like it much better than the other programs you mentioned and you retain AutoCad compatibility with the client.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2007, 09:37:53 PM »
It seems that surveyors in general are very disappointed with Civil-3D.

I hope Autodesk is paying attention, and really attacks this issue hard in the 2009 release.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2007, 11:34:02 PM »
Our surveyors are using ZERO C3D functionality - of course they didn't use any of LDT's either.  The one thing I hope Autodedsk hears loud and clear is that they HAVE to get this turkey backward compatible with itself.  I am NOT going to keep any job started with one version on that version until completion while I may be doing other projects in software 2 or 3 generations newer and I am NOT going to transfer things around via XML either.  If Autodesk continues to insist those are the only methods to deal with long term projects and yearly program upgrades, I am going to have to start learning Microstation on the fast track.  Yes, I heard you Dent regarding Carlson.  Unfortunately at this point it sits on an Autodesk platform that has taken an abrupt fall from favor in our office.
 I apologize John, for hijacking your fine thread with this rant, but I guess this must be the week for it.

Dent Cermak

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2007, 09:33:08 AM »
Not so Dino. You can get a version that loads on top of MAP instead of C3D. They also have a stand-alone version that is dwg compatable. Plus it can use XML to transfer data to AutoCad without any problems that we have found yet. The major advantage is that it includes tha data collection package we are using now. AND with our tablet system, the guys in the field have exactly the same software in their data collector that I have on my desk. That cuts down on a lot of problems. If you are using the same software in the field that you are using in the office, all of the "conversion" problems are bypassed. Neither of the packages you are looking at have a field package.
It would pay you handsomely to take another look.


http://www.carlsonsw.com/PL_CS_Civil.html


Plus, if they force you to microstation, the Carlson rw5 files work in Anygraph too. You can even code the rw5 files to draw your linework in Microstation just like in Autocad. You really need a day in Jackson to see what it can do. Plus, Bass Pro Shops is having a sale!!

If you go to the website, look under the Support tab at the top and go to downloads. They have training movies that will show you what the software looks like and what it does. Just pick one that the subject interests you and give it a watch.

afterthought: We are owned by a sizeable engineering firm with multiple office locations. The company is running everything from R14 to 2007. In order to get everyone on the same sheet of music, they looked at just upgrading all of the offices to 2007.  With AutoDesk's current pricing structure, that runs a little over $500,000. We may soon have more Carlson converts with us.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 02:11:26 PM by Dent Cermak »

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2007, 04:00:21 PM »
Well, I was about to split this topic away into it's own rant, but now it seems like a very appropriate place for it to live.
I am going to call off the full alert and replace it as just one more annoying Civil 3D layer behavior.  I remembered that I had placed my bpoly's on their own layer, locked and froze it out.  My labels stayed in 2007 so everything was grand.  It seems 2008 managed to attach the layer state of the bpoly layer to that of my labels because when I turned it back hot all of my labels popped right into place even though they still show in properties to be on the separate layer.

LESSON LEARNED . . . don't assume Civil 3D will translate your mix of objects and their labels with your layering scheme and properties intact. 

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2007, 07:15:07 PM »
That makes more sense.

I've run into that particular... "feature".  I'm not impressed with it.  (It's actually been something of a thorn.)

But it's something I've seen.  I was rather confused when you said that all your labels had disappeared.  The big problem we noticed was labels resetting themselves from the dragged state, but not labels disappearing.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2007, 07:33:20 AM »
What really threw me was when I noticed that there were a very few labels that HAD appeared after translating into 2008.  These were identical in every way - created in the same session with the same styles and on the same layers as the missing ones.  The only difference was that these labels were placed individually on a segment while the missing were placed on closed bpoly's with the multiple option.  There must be something different in the commands between the options to cause this.

EDIT

One more bizarre twist to this is that the layer that has pirated my labels is set to be "no plot" however after the labels become visible they will still plot with no problem.  Therefore the labels seem to have only inherited the visibility properties of the layer and not its plotting status.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 08:07:34 AM by DinØsaur »

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2007, 08:12:39 AM »
One more bizarre twist to this is that the layer that has pirated my labels is set to be "no plot" however after the labels become visible they will still plot with no problem.  Therefore the labels seem to have only inherited the visibility properties of the layer and not its plotting status.

Consistency would be foolish.   :-D

As another bizarre twist, you can turn off or freeze the layer containing the linework, and the text will remain visible...  until you REGEN the drawing.  Then all the text disappears.  That was the bit of user-friendly behavior that clued me into this particular joyful aspect of C3D labels....   :-P

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2007, 08:03:31 PM »
I check out of here for a couple of weeks and It turns to this? :laugh:
Nothing much to report from my end.
Got my Vault built and ready, gonna wait until SP1 to put the product on the floor.
Got some cleanup work to do as the old vault was kind of a free for all.
Thanks sinc and dino for playing in this game. Both of you have helped a bunch.
Glad your stumble was a temporary thing Dino.
We all face something new everyday. Sometimes it's interesting and sometimes it just pisses you off.
Too bad the 2007 initial release was so crappy, I'm sure their goal was to have H&H and survey fixed by now but they had to go back and fix the guts.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2007, 08:18:05 PM »
The sad thing is, this program has developed a reputation for this kind of behavior to the point I was EXPECTING something like that to happen . . . just hopefully not as dramatic as it seemed at first.  I have been pushing this program into people's faces for the better part of 3 years now and I was ready to believe the worst at the first sniff of trouble.  How many do you suppose have observed some kind of deviant Civil 3D behavior early on in their evaluations, promptly demoted the discs to table coasters and gone about their business of making money?

John Mayo

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2007, 11:33:21 AM »
JP, Dana, Sinc, Dino & everyone else,

Thanks for the ramblings. They do help. I recently got our first few C3D jobs out & just started to use vault.

The adventure has just begun...

JM

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #133 on: July 04, 2007, 11:58:36 AM »
JP, Dana, Sinc, Dino & everyone else,

Thanks for the ramblings. They do help. I recently got our first few C3D jobs out & just started to use vault.

The adventure has just begun...

JM

Crap I've been outed.
Hope you enjoyed my adventures and feel free to take any knowledge gained.
Probably cost a couple of Benjamin's worth of beer to produce this thread.
Good luck in the whitewater raft ride that is implementing this product.  :laugh:

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Lessons learned.
« Reply #134 on: July 04, 2007, 03:49:48 PM »
Welcome to TheSwamp John.  There is a lot of information and helpful advice to be had here even beyond Land Lubber along with some of the most creative coders around.  Quite a bit of fun and irreverence is lurking about thanks to some very colorful characters.  Some more experience with Civil 3D is most welcome and any story, whether it is a success or failure, can yield valuable information for all.  What kind and scope of projects have you sent out with Civil 3D?  Any of it include storm sewers?  They are kicking my keester right now - sanitary works great but these storm networks refuse to bend to my will.