Topic: Books on Civil and Land.

[mjfarrell]

Yeah, semantics is a powerful tool.

I consider lack of information about Part Builder an omission, and am told "not an om mission, just beyond the scope" of a book that calls itself Mastering? 

The worst part here is the customers pay for the right to become live beta testers of the product.
Because the other beta team can not find all the errors because there is not enough time, or they don't really use the tools in real world scenarios.


I am still trying to figure out the 'benefit' of being able to target extra alignments, feature lines, or polylines for my corridor?  I mean IF I know I need an alignment and profile for my corridor why would I simply not create the actual data that I need?  I guess in some instances this might reduce the total number of alignments or profiles one has to juggle, it just seems unnecessary compared to what should have been fixed.

[scout]

That is misleading.

It is difficult to say what exactly is happening inside of Autodesk.  They like to keep everything hidden.  But some things shine through.

Autodesk has a marketing team that has decided that they will release a version of the software every year, on the year.  There is no leeway given for this.  The needs of the software or the software development team are not considered.  They have a release schedule; they must release a version every March, no matter what.

You are right, sinc. I didn't mean to suggest that it was entirely that simple. What I was getting at is that people get promoted, moved around and hired from the outside. I'd like to believe that not all of them would get entirely brainwashed and jaded along the way, and might potentially become an advocate for the real issues.

[scout]

If they care about the product they can do something about it.
It might cost them their job, they might need to start the company that lets them write a better product.

I do not think that your suggestion of swimming in the same channels that have produced, or do not produce measurable results is the answer.  However a combination of methods must be employed as the status quo, only leads to more of the same.

"We can not solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."  A Einstein

It' is time to try another approach, such that the solution is no longer the problem.

I think I finally get your point. The black and white, raw truth and nonwavering mission. I think that you don't do yourself justice by associating yourself with Autodesk in any way, and I am not trying to be cheeky here. Seriously, the market could use a grass roots, open source, no-nonsense, transparent software package.

In the meantime, I have some deadlines to meet. If anyone has feedback about the Mastering Civil 3D text, I would really like to hear it. Honest feedback with specific examples would be the most helpful. Since I probably will be ducking out of the Swamp for awhile, it would be best to send me an email. dana dot probert at gmail dot com would work best.

[therock003]

Hi Dana.What will the main differences/additions on the new  Mastering Civil 3D 2009 be,since the previous release (2008).

[mjfarrell]

From my dialog with Dana on this, one would infer that the major change to the book will ONLY be that the graphics will match the 2009 interface. And perhaps the errata it currently contains might all be addresses. Other than that it will be the same book. 

[mjfarrell]

If they care about the product they can do something about it.
It might cost them their job, they might need to start the company that lets them write a better product.

I do not think that your suggestion of swimming in the same channels that have produced, or do not produce measurable results is the answer.  However a combination of methods must be employed as the status quo, only leads to more of the same.

"We can not solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."  A Einstein

It' is time to try another approach, such that the solution is no longer the problem.

I think I finally get your point. The black and white, raw truth and nonwavering mission. I think that you don't do yourself justice by associating yourself with Autodesk in any way, and I am not trying to be cheeky here. Seriously, the market could use a grass roots, open source, no-nonsense, transparent software package.

No Dana, you most likely do not get my point.  Notice that I do disassociate myself from Autodesk, I train people to use the products, I do NOT sell them.

Here is another insight into who I am.  (call Roy's Auto and ask)

They worked on my truck engine, replacing a front seal and sending unit.
On driving it home, I noticed that the sending unit was still leaking.
They replaced.
I drove the vehicle three to four hundred miles. The next time I drove the vehicle the OIL light remained LIT.
I pull forward, and notice a large ominous stream of oil on the ground.
The shop sent a flat bed. 
Fast forward to a conversation where I questioned HOW they determined what seal to fix in the first place, and if they measured my oil pressure then?  They had not, and could not verify that they were responsible for the 'damage' to my engine that now had the engine oil pressure at 90 psi the instant the engine was started, and climbing to frightening (head gasket blowing) pressure at idle.

A year later, when they had disassembled my engine, as I had suggested they discovered the 'problem' and fixed it.
However IF, I had not insisted that the problem was as they diagnosed, most likely that truck would now be in a scrap yard. Luckily I know enough about engines, and software, that I knew the 'problem' was not as diagnosed and the 'solution' based on the bad diagnostics did not yield a 'repair'

However in getting to this place, a REAL working solution; I am certain that every mechanic at that shop thought me the largest rectum in the known universe. However there was some measure of professional respect gained when my persistence yielded the actual problem and solution. They even thanked me for my patience and persistence. The truck runs fine, and they learned that the customer just might know something. Now I can't say that they still don't reffer to me as 'that giant rectum', because admittedly I can be one, It did get the job done.

Think about this, I was willing to wait an entire YEAR for the repair, and I did not bother them weekly, or even monthly. I left them alone to resolve the problem.

Comparatively; I have been even more patient with autodesk considering I have been using the products since version 2.x.


Perhaps now you have a better understanding of who I am.  If not I can send you a link to some of the art I create, and you will see that I understand far more than black, and white.

[surveyor_randy]

Well.....IMHO it seems like the surveyor gets the shaft due to their *time constraints*.  I recently attended the "dog & pony" show for the 2009 version and all the guy had to talk about was how great corridors were now.  So I asked him, are parcels functioning properly now and can you have them associated with an alignment.  Then he started talking about how the new corridor features were so nifty.  If we didn't have a large engineering department here, we would have already abandoned C3D.  It is hard to explain to someone that it is a "better product" when it takes twice as long to get the same results.  Results that sometimes work, and sometimes don't work.  Anyways, I'd rather have 2008 with additional service packs that fix problems then a new version with new features, new problems and no additional service packs for 2008 (am I right in this?).

From a surveyor's prospective, I saw *NOTHING* that makes me want to upgrade to 2009 and learn a whole bunch of new tricks to deal with bugs.

[mjfarrell]

Awe, c'mon Randy...They are the SAME bugs you already know.
Including my personal favorite, The Figures DO NOT assume the figure style properties as defined in your figure preferences. Perfect; you spend time making and assigning figure styles, and then C3D simply randomly decides to not use them.

It also appears that the same process is being used to reissue the mastering book for 2009, by employing a similar face lift without changes to content (largely).

Hey did you here about the Corridor Improvements? !  ? 

Forgot, that just like autodesk, there will be another book, that addresses what should be in the other book.

[surveyor_randy]

Awe, c'mon Randy...They are the SAME bugs you already know.

Very true!  And the same bugs will exist in Civil 3D 2010.  I've got to write off all of the time dealing with their bugs because it is unfair to bill it to the client, they didn't force me to switch to C3D.  And that useless "send error report to autodesk" function.  Why even have it in the program?  I gave up sending in error reports other then to tell them that "with the amount of money spent on their application it shouldn't be crashing at all" or in ultimate times of frustration that "their software sucks".  SEND >click!<

The figure style issue is a REAL problem, we don't even mess with figures anymore because it is so @#$*& annoying!  Why bother even having styles for them?  We spent a lot of time setting them up as well.  Wasted time, that is.  As far as the Mastering Civil 3D series of books goes....."Mastering" AutoCAD Civil 3D should perhaps be called "an Introduction to"....  You certainly can only begin to teach someone some of the concepts of how Civil 3D works, but never mastery through a book.  Getting instruction from someone such as Michael would be your best bet.  As soon as the market slump goes away (if it ever does), and we have our next round of training, I am going to push hard for them to bring Michael in instead of the blabbering, tap-dancing-around-questions morons from Avatech.

Good example:
A training session showing how to do lane transitions from Avatech.....  the instructor (who will remain nameless), says, let's put a lane transition over here on this side of the corridor and have it daylight to the existing surface...C3D crashes and he says, well, for timesake, we will just put it over here instead.  So I ask him "what if the client doesn't want it there?" and he kind of half-assed answered my question by throwing around terms terms such as multiple regions, etc, etc....but never really explaining why it crashed or how to get the transition to work in that particular area.  Listening to his attempt at an answer made me feel like I was watching an old Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movie with all of the tap dancing going on.

The only thing that got me to come to the Civil 3D 2009 product launch was the free breakfast.  We probably won't be invited back to an Autodesk product launch again because we kept making smart assed comments and heckling the presenter.  Three famous quotes from people at our company that were made during the open question and answer session:

A day without a crash, is a day I feel I’m missing something.

If you’re not saving every two minutes……you’re a ROOKIE!!!

and

If it isn't working right, just explode the object

[mjfarrell]

Randy,

Don't be too hard on the Avatech guys; you should see all the carnage I see that they leave behind.

I would be amazed (they would too) at the increase in revenue and customer satisfaction if they had all their Civil folks come to one of my classes. Combine that with their supposed communications channel to autodesk, and we could almost expect real improvements in the product. Imagine the instructor actually knowing how the product worked! Imagine an instructor aware of the defects! Imagine an instructor that could answer your question, or show you the software wont do what you just ask for!

[therock003]

For some reason i dont see dana reacting to the statements that her new book is just another same version with pics of the new interfac and is also nothing more than paperweight (not my words of course)!

Anyway what about Harry ward and zimmerman.

Harry's book described procedures-scenarios-ways that the software can be used and not how to exploit every option.Maybe his new versions describe new procedures.

[mjfarrell]

Honestly, take your 50$, and go buy some good coffee, and perhaps spirituous liquor and crack that help file open.

Try different stuff, ask your questions here, try some more stuff.  Watch a few of the archived webcasts and do the exercises without downloading the dataset.  In the first pass forget about STYLES, just use the tools, and observe what happens.  Then do the exercise again, and this time adjust your styles.
Then do the exercise again, until everything meets your satisfaction. 

Watch my interface video. Watch all those videos and try to recreate what you see.  Post your questions here.

The single most important tip I can give you:

When modeling a corridor, name everything so that a(n) complete tool can look at your data, your alignments, assemblies, etc. and know what they are by name, and more explicitly in the descriptions of the objects, styles, assemblies, profiles, etc.  Further the Profile that is targeted by the baseline must be drawn as long as that parent alignment, (or the corridor stations adjusted to fit ONLY where one has designed the profile) or the corridor model will 'crash' down to elevation ZERO(0).

[scout]

For some reason i dont see dana reacting to the statements that her new book is just another same version with pics of the new interfac and is also nothing more than paperweight (not my words of course)!

Sorry- those pesky kids begging to be fed again.

The Mastering Civil 3D text will be updated to match the 2009 interface, of course. Based on our own experience using the book for teaching and reference, we have added exercises where we felt there were gaps. For example, I have refined the Lines and Curves chapter to include more hands on deed creation. Surfaces, Alignments, Profiles and Grading all have totally different UIs and constraints, so those chapters are rebuilt from the ground up. Visualization changed so much that I bagged the entire chapter and started over from nothing, and since I had to start over, I improved the exercises where I could.

There are still chapters in development and finalization and there is room to make some tweaks, but I CANNOT do that without some real feedback. Someone commented on the ROW tool, and I asked for more information and provided my feeling on the subject and page numbers of some clarification in the book, and I received no repsonse.

On several occasions during this thread, I have invited everyone to clarify what makes this book a "paper weight" in your opinion, including providing my email address. I haven't heard anything yet.

I would really appreciate some feedback on the book. I hear you loud and clear on Part Builder. I am ruminiating on that right now. But that is all I have heard. You can be mean, that's cool. Just be specific. As in: "You say to do this. That doesn't work" or "Someone really should know how to X in order to be considered to have Mastered Civil 3D."

It is hard for me to encourage a dialog between users and Autodesk using this discussion as a model. I am one of the authors of this book, and I am here actively seeking real feedback and so far, I don't have anything to show for it. Help me out here, or not. Either way, its cool. Just don't keep a girl's hopes up

[scout]

From my dialog with Dana on this, one would infer that the major change to the book will ONLY be that the graphics will match the 2009 interface. And perhaps the errata it currently contains might all be addresses. Other than that it will be the same book. 

I apologize for giving you that impression.

Yes, the captures have been updated and the procedures adjusted. New exercises have been added to show new tools and new applications. The exercises from the 2008 text were not eliminated unless they became obsolete. All of them have been updated and refined. Since I cannot share a preview version of the book at this time, I would like your feedback on the 2008 book because your comments will still be relevant.

Also, I would like to know (besides Part Builder which we have discussed) what you would have in _your_ mind that would be included in a Mastering text, and what procedures/chapters/etc. are good (shocking!) or could use improvement. And if you tell me HOW they could be improved, that would be helpful.

[dfarris75]

therock003, I'm the guy that sent you here from cadtutor (rustysilo - the one who knows some "mad civil"). I stepped out of this thread after it began to heat up so I don't know all of what's been said after the first page or two. What I can tell you is that any book you buy will more than likely end up being a desk reference at best. It is unlikely that any book will tell you everything about the software and I doubt that would really be possible anyway unless you want a book that's big enough to be a coffee table. If you have the money and would like to buy books there's nothing wrong with that. Buy them. Read them. Post a review on them so we all know how good or bad they are.

As a testimonial we've had MJF come in to our office for two sessions over the past few years. One session for Land Desktop/Civil Design and one session for Civil 3D. He did a fantastic job (imo) and if it were my decision I would have him back again. Unfortunately it isn't my decision and I work in an office where folks don't seem to understand what roi means so our investment doesn't get its full use. Still I've continued to learn and have learned a great deal about the software by simply following MJF's advice and using the help file. Additionally, I get much use out of online forums and tutorials as I'm sure you know.

Really, when it comes down to it you just have to utilize all sources in order to gain a strong understanding of the software. Sure you have to be aware with "official" training sources that they are training to make money so more often than not (especially with free online tutorials and such) they will leave out pertinent information just so they can get you to buy more training. That doesn't mean they're bad sources to learn from necessarily. That's how capitalism works. To some of us it sucks and yet others don't have a problem with it. To each his/her own. You have to glean from other sources to fill in the blanks they've left you with.