Topic: Back on C3D Pipes

[bdough15]

Alright I have my Sanitary Sewer functioning properly but now I am trying to get Storm Sewer to function what we consider properly.  We do not desing to the center of structure, we design to the inside of the wall of the structure so how do I make the pipes do the same thing.  The only way that I have found is to create a null structure at each wall so that the pipe is entering where we want it to and then have the structure itself in the center.  But the problem with that is that if the structure needs to move then really three structures need to move, am I looking at this wrong or is it that screwed up?

[Dinosaur]

You are looking at it correctly and it IS screwed up at least as far as the way C3D handles this design constraint.  I never found an acceptable way to design to inside face of structure and be able to edit the design in any rational manner.  Sanitary sewers worked perfectly for me but we designed to center of a round manhole.  We kept failing when designing to the inside face of rectangular structures on our storm water design.  I think the pipe length problems I had were finally addressed in one of the later 2009 service packs.

[mjfarrell]

What part of the pipes issue are you trying to solve by placing these other structures Doc?

I think there is a way to have the labels and slopes be calculated correctly using expressions, and label styles.

However this might not be what you want.  Can you spell it out a little better for me?  And should I stop by Morningside sometime tomorrow, after I leave Madison, S.D.?

And or are you doing the design outside of C3D, with the Hydroflow tools?

[bdough15]

What part of the pipes issue are you trying to solve by placing these other structures Doc?

I think there is a way to have the labels and slopes be calculated correctly using expressions, and label styles.

However this might not be what you want.  Can you spell it out a little better for me?  And should I stop by Morningside sometime tomorrow, after I leave Madison, S.D.?

And or are you doing the design outside of C3D, with the Hydroflow tools?

What we are trying to do is beable to have the pipe show up in the side of the structure not through the corner of a box.  Just something that we are tinkering with, so you probably do not need to show up but thanks for the offer.  We want to be able to show it how it will be constructed.  As far as labeling it I have figured that out but I have not figured out how to have the presentation that we would like without creating the null structures.

[mjfarrell]

I think I need to see a sample of what you are getting, and what you want to get.

If I understand what you are after, it might be doable with a trip into part builder.

Or, and this could be just crazy enough, use ROUND structures, that allow the pipes to enter from any angle.
Then place Square structures in the style....

[jugglerbri]

It's actually pretty simple.  Once your pipe is connected to the structure, simply move the pipe, within the structure, to where you want it to go.  The pipe length and slope are then calculated to that location.

In the attached image, I created two inlets with a connecting pipe and then copied them.  One pipe, I simply moved from the insertion point of the inlet to the point where the pipe would connect to the inlet.  As you can see, the pipes have identical invert elevations and are still connected to the structures.

[mjfarrell]

It's actually pretty simple.  Once your pipe is connected to the structure, simply move the pipe, within the structure, to where you want it to go.  The pipe length and slope are then calculated to that location.

In the attached image, I created two inlets with a connecting pipe and then copied them.  One pipe, I simply moved from the insertion point of the inlet to the point where the pipe would connect to the inlet.  As you can see, the pipes have identical invert elevations and are still connected to the structures.

I believe the OP was looking for a Plan view solution...

[jugglerbri]

This is a plan view solution, as well as a profile solution, section solution, skewed solution.  The pipes are coming into the structure at the correct location.  That's what was wanted, that's what I provided.

[mjfarrell]

This is a plan view solution, as well as a profile solution, section solution, skewed solution.  The pipes are coming into the structure at the correct location.  That's what was wanted, that's what I provided.

Well, how about showing a clear picture; one each of the above in context see I can see what that looks like.   

However I do recall a SP, or a recent release update that did change pipe label calculations.

[Dinosaur]

I would also like to see what happens to those pipe ends if he moves a structure.

[jugglerbri]

If the structure is moved, the pipe will go back to the insertion point of the structure so you would have to remove the pipe after moving the structure.

Just try it.  Draw a pipe network, grip edit the pipe to the wall of the structure.

As for the image, is this better?

[Dinosaur]

If the structure is moved, the pipe will go back to the insertion point of the structure so you would have to remove the pipe after moving the structure.

Just try it.  Draw a pipe network, grip edit the pipe to the wall of the structure.

As for the image, is this better?

OK, we are seeing the same thing to this point.  Now what happens to those pipes and structures when you put them into a profile view and start grip editing in the plan?
The first problem I run into is needing to have a precise x,y,z destination insert point.  On our designs, the curb elevation was the exact elevation of the street profile station - a hassle but doable.  Then the pipe ends must be adjusted as you outlined but what does one snap to?Somewhere around 100%of the time I would end up with the centerline of the pipe in profile at the midpoint of the inside face at the top of the structure and at this point unless I had hard copy somewhere showing the design invert elevation it was re-crunch some numbers time.  At best it was back into the pipe editor to plug in the correct design.  The real joker in all of this is the pipe ends don't move just at the one structure. almost always the other pipe end will jump as well and with disturbing regularity a few others will be affected as well.  This means the entire network must at least be visually verified to have the pipes attached as required and confirm that the lengths and slopes have not spontaneously changed to reflect a center to center design when you move something and the network is regenerated.  It does happen ... often ... and can be VERY embarrassing.