TheSwamp
CAD Forums => CAD General => Topic started by: Bob Garner on July 30, 2009, 11:27:38 AM
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The daughter of the owner of one of our favorite restaurants here is studying Architecture at a local university. She told me her professor gave her and several classmates pirated copies of AutoCAD for their drafting class. He even told them it was an illegal copy and to keep quiet about it.
I think that is just wrong.
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I am all for it.
AutoCAD's student copies are incredibly draconian and often inhibited to the use of students.
I used a pirated copy of Autocad 2000 all through college, because of it. A fellow class mate burned it to a cd for me, to use.
You upload a student-copy-made .dwg to any support forum, here, autodesk DG, or anywhere... yea.. just SEE how much help you get.
You print out some student drawings (not sure if they still do the watermark or border, but they used to) and see how professional it looks when you try to bring work examples to an employer.
Some autodesk software will only render PARTS of a rendering, or leave it 50-75% interlaced, depending on what software.
That teacher is brave and commendable for putting himself on the line to enable his students to have the tools at their disposal that they need to have the opportunities to work towards the success they deserve.
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AutoCAD's student copies are incredibly draconian and often inhibited to the use of students.
uh, did I read that right? student copies are inhibited to the use of students? ... meaning that student copies are to be used ONLY for student work?
GASP .... how dare they!
You upload a student-copy-made .dwg to any support forum, here, autodesk DG, or anywhere... yea.. just SEE how much help you get.
You print out some student drawings (not sure if they still do the watermark or border, but they used to) and see how professional it looks when you try to bring work examples to an employer.
Yes, the plot stamp is still there ... incidently, how "professional" would it look if you were to walk in and hand them drawings plotted on a pirated version and then told them .. "uh .. incidently, I did these on a pirated version of AutoCAD, cool huh"
Some autodesk software will only render PARTS of a rendering, or leave it 50-75% interlaced, depending on what software.
This does not affect the student's ability to learn how to use the software, merely the expected output.
That teacher is brave and commendable for putting himself on the line to enable his students to have the tools at their disposal that they need to have the opportunities to work towards the success they deserve.
No, this "teacher" is incredibly stupid and is jeopardizing not only his livelyhood, but also the institution for which he works.
Now all that being said, I do believe that the rules regarding the student versions are poorly thought out. If Autodesk were to offer really low cost or free student versions that perhaps could not plot drawings and would prevent any student version drawings from being plotted in a full version, it would lead to students having a better understanding of the software and ultimately lead to more users and more sales.
One piece of software that Autodesk has made some incredible progess in their licensing is Maya, there may be others, but this is the only one I am aware of currently.
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I think the teacher, is teaching them bad habits.
The school likely does have installed "NFR" version of the product for them to learn on in class, that has none of the limitations of the student version.
He should simply avail the lab for the students to use, and not give them the idea that pirating software is the 'right' thing to do.
For that matter they could simply download and install a DEMO version of the real thing to use for their presentation drawings.
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The school likely does have installed "NFR" version of the product for them to learn on in class, that has none of the limitations of the student version.
That's a really big "IF" right there.
That software still has to be bought, normally at full price, or donated to the institution by a reseller.
Not all institutions are so lucky. One of mine wasn't. My instructor told me that the college wouldn't approve the expenditure and the reseller denied him in a very apologetic way.
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AutoCAD's student copies are incredibly draconian and often inhibited to the use of students.
uh, did I read that right? student copies are inhibited to the use of students? ... meaning that student copies are to be used ONLY for student work?
GASP .... how dare they!
Nice. I like that. You take a statement by me... twist the meaning... and then for some icing on the cake you used sarcasm to drive your point home. That's talent. Can I write that down? I might use it later.
I did not mean that the student software is only for use in student work, I meant that the software overall is inhibited... the students are using a very inhibited software package that can not handle all the needs of a student; leaving them wanting.
You upload a student-copy-made .dwg to any support forum, here, autodesk DG, or anywhere... yea.. just SEE how much help you get.
You print out some student drawings (not sure if they still do the watermark or border, but they used to) and see how professional it looks when you try to bring work examples to an employer.
Yes, the plot stamp is still there ... incidently, how "professional" would it look if you were to walk in and hand them drawings plotted on a pirated version and then told them .. "uh .. incidently, I did these on a pirated version of AutoCAD, cool huh"
Then don't volunteer the information that it was done on a pirated version. How stupid would that be, to do? Don't ask, don't tell.
The employer is typically more interested in your capabilities in using THEIR software anyways, since you'll be working for them, so your prior tools are no longer of concern.
Some autodesk software will only render PARTS of a rendering, or leave it 50-75% interlaced, depending on what software.
This does not affect the student's ability to learn how to use the software, merely the expected output.
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Have you USED Autodesk student software lately? I tried 3dsmax and Maya before, and I couldn't see what the hell I was doing... I couldn't test rendering features at all. There was no way to mess with materials, lighting, render engine settings, or anything of the sort, because the only way to see the results of such manipulation is via rendered output, which is handicapped more than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.
That teacher is brave and commendable for putting himself on the line to enable his students to have the tools at their disposal that they need to have the opportunities to work towards the success they deserve.
One piece of software that Autodesk has made some incredible progess in their licensing is Maya, there may be others, but this is the only one I am aware of currently.
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Maybe Maya has made progress in the past couple years, I don't know, but I'm not sure what you mean about Maya being better. It used to have the same restrictions Max did, if my memory serves me right (though it's been a while)
Now all that being said, I do believe that the rules regarding the student versions are poorly thought out. If Autodesk were to offer really low cost or free student versions that perhaps could not plot drawings and would prevent any student version drawings from being plotted in a full version, it would lead to students having a better understanding of the software and ultimately lead to more users and more sales.
I'm really not sure how denying a student the ability to plot or render can really have no effect on a studen't ability to learn the full package.
The makers of Rhino have an excellent setup if you ask me. McNeel has the following pricing scheme:
Rhino US$995
• Students and teachers US$195
• School lab kit US$975
This is a VERY affordable price for a VERY powerful software package. What's the difference between the software version and the full version? NOTHING! They even let you use the software legally under license, for a full year after your student-status expires.
They require proof of student-hood, and then offer the price. Method of proof, here: http://www.rhino3d.com/proof.htm
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I dont have time to read this entire thread but i had a related...
I just got my first PC and i had just finished my internship (thats when i started programing and stuff; i didnt even know what the difference between word and notepad were back then). I knew a guy who was in the ...umm... if you did something "wrong" with your computer and the "government" had your computer... He gave me a CD of what he called the "REAL hackers handbook" and told me not to go to any of the websites on my home PC unless he was there. I didnt keep the CD cause i was afraid of it but it taught me a lesson.
I miss him (He's not around anymore). He was UBER scary with a computer.
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if it is any of the two local architorture schools - those are expensive
here is a link to do something about it:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=340446
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I must say, I find myself veering towards James' argument rather than Keith's (though I have the educational version of AutoCAD 2010 for when I pull my finger out to do some more CAD programming...)
In this case, it is actually beneficial for ALL for AutoDesk to have their software "pirated" for dissemination amongst a few students - I just see it as a sad thing that the Professor has had to put not only HIS job on the line, but also the reputation of the institution in order to do it.
Why is it beneficial to the students? That should be pretty obvious, gimme a full version over a student version every time.
Why is it beneficial to AutoDesk? Well it certainly isn't a lost sale, is it? It's either an educational version (free...) or a pirated version (which is the same price to the student, and the same revenue for AutoDesk). Why else? Well, it's locking the students into their specific proprietary platform. When they get out of college they are going to be a lot more likely to be locked into AutoDesk products, they will know the internals better if they have a chance to play with the full version. It's pretty well known that a lot of the "old school" hackers, sitting in their garages cutting code got locked into certain practices because they had pirated copies of certain stuff.
I don't necessarily advocate piracy, but I think there is an awful lot of BS sprouted through pure ignorance.
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How incredibly silly it must sound to an uninterested party, that someone would steal something (autocad license) in order to gain something (training, job, income) from a legitimate source.
I'll bet if it were their "something" being appropriated without proper payment they would feel differently. How angry and litigious would most people be if suddenly they were hit with this story:
Sorry folks, were just not gonna pay you for your work, we figured you got paid enough already from other people, besides, times are tough and business is slow .. by the way, your work sucks anyway, oh, hurry up with that revision, I need it so I can sell some services to this other company to make me some money ... oh, you? ... don't you worry a bit, if you would just work for a little bit or nothing, everything would be just fine, and I would be willing to pay you something, what I think is appropriate when I think it is appropriate, but as long as I can get you to do it for free, I won't bother. Incidently, when you start those revisions, make damn sure it is exactly like I want them, I'd hate to have to actually pay someone else more than I already don't pay you.
As silly as that sounds, it is EXACTLY the position that software pirates take ... the software costs too much, doesn't do enough, does too much, doesn't fit my needs exactly, I don't use it enough etc.
Well, if that is the case, then use something else, or quit whining about it.
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now, how about being honest here and tell if we have a license or pirate version, can be a good exercise :)
i understand the way big software companies let or leave open doors to allow their apps to propagate (and forgot about right or wrong)
i recall, when i wrote gbpoly that someone mention to me, let your arx being spread leave it open, or with less protection, so that way it will be known by everyone.... and i recall when i wrote draftteam that was pirate because back then, i did not any idea of how to do a protection of course not compared with the big software company guys
today, i get all the software that i need licensed and provided by my employer (a software company)
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How incredibly silly it must sound to an uninterested party, that someone would steal something (autocad license) in order to gain something (training, job, income) from a legitimate source.
It's not stealing, it's copying. Stealing would deprive the original holder of their item.
I'll bet if it were their "something" being appropriated without proper payment they would feel differently. How angry and litigious would most people be if suddenly they were hit with this story:
Sorry folks, were just not gonna pay you for your work, we figured you got paid enough already from other people, besides, times are tough and business is slow .. by the way, your work sucks anyway, oh, hurry up with that revision, I need it so I can sell some services to this other company to make me some money ... oh, you? ... don't you worry a bit, if you would just work for a little bit or nothing, everything would be just fine, and I would be willing to pay you something, what I think is appropriate when I think it is appropriate, but as long as I can get you to do it for free, I won't bother. Incidently, when you start those revisions, make damn sure it is exactly like I want them, I'd hate to have to actually pay someone else more than I already don't pay you.
That's not what we're talking about here, is it? You're arguing a different case. Also, anybody who "pirates" software to then make money is badly in the wrong. Piracy for learning is one thing, piracy in order to make money is not what we're talking about here.
As silly as that sounds, it is EXACTLY the position that software pirates take ... the software costs too much, doesn't do enough, does too much, doesn't fit my needs exactly, I don't use it enough etc.
Well, if that is the case, then use something else, or quit whining about it.
You can't make generalised statement like that, I'm sorry. I neither accept nor agree with that blind, sweeping statement. What you're talking about are leeches who are despised by the "pirates" and the sharing community.
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How incredibly silly it must sound to an uninterested party, that someone would steal something (autocad license) in order to gain something (training, job, income) from a legitimate source.
It's not stealing, it's copying. Stealing would deprive the original holder of their item.
So you won't have a problem with me copying your homework or code or whatever, after all, you would still be the original owner, and I wouldn't be depriving you of anything.
I'll bet if it were their "something" being appropriated without proper payment they would feel differently. How angry and litigious would most people be if suddenly they were hit with this story:
Sorry folks, were just not gonna pay you for your work, we figured you got paid enough already from other people, besides, times are tough and business is slow .. by the way, your work sucks anyway, oh, hurry up with that revision, I need it so I can sell some services to this other company to make me some money ... oh, you? ... don't you worry a bit, if you would just work for a little bit or nothing, everything would be just fine, and I would be willing to pay you something, what I think is appropriate when I think it is appropriate, but as long as I can get you to do it for free, I won't bother. Incidently, when you start those revisions, make damn sure it is exactly like I want them, I'd hate to have to actually pay someone else more than I already don't pay you.
That's not what we're talking about here, is it? You're arguing a different case. Also, anybody who "pirates" software to then make money is badly in the wrong. Piracy for learning is one thing, piracy in order to make money is not what we're talking about here.
It certainly is what we are talking about ... in offices across the world, thens of thousands of people have spent countless hours writing code, rewriting code, developing additional tools and keeping abreast of industry requirements. This costs millions of dollars, dollars that the software developers must recouperate from somewhere. Now, I don't buy the whole "piracy costs a bajillion dollars a year" argument because I think it is inflated to justify their charging what they do otherwise. Now, if it were a matter of merely learning, as opposed to learning a particular program, I would agree with you that the software company would suffer no loss, however, the student is gaining a valuable lesson, and that is worth something, for without it, they would not be able to be employed in that field.
As silly as that sounds, it is EXACTLY the position that software pirates take ... the software costs too much, doesn't do enough, does too much, doesn't fit my needs exactly, I don't use it enough etc.
Well, if that is the case, then use something else, or quit whining about it.
You can't make generalised statement like that, I'm sorry. I neither accept nor agree with that blind, sweeping statement. What you're talking about are leeches who are despised by the "pirates" and the sharing community.
Well, lets see ... someone who gains (education is a gain, no matter how you slice it) by using the work of others without compensating them in some form, is the purest definition of a leech. Using that definition, the "pirates" are nothing more than self-indulgent leaches.
*edited to fix quote tags*
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Pirate Software? There is nothing to discuss. Its wrong. It called theft.
If you don't like the licence agreement, use something like Double cad, which is freeware, or buy a cheap alternative.
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You know, the actual name has the action in it.. "COPY"right. It's not theft. It's illegal copying.
If I steal a cd from a store, they now have one less copy to sell. If I copy the cd, that cd is still there to sell, but I now have an illegal copy.
Similarities.. sure.. but I do, like Tuoni, apparently, often have the urge to pick that nit, that they are not the same, despite what mainstream media will try to convince you of.
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You know, the actual name has the action in it.. "COPY"right. It's not theft. It's illegal copying.
If I steal a cd from a store, they now have one less copy to sell. If I copy the cd, that cd is still there to sell, but I now have an illegal copy.
Similarities.. sure.. but I do, like Tuoni, apparently, often have the urge to pick that nit, that they are not the same, despite what mainstream media will try to convince you of.
It boils down to theft.
This is a black and white issue. There are no room for grey in between.
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I don't see where the grey comes into it. No matter what you say, it's still not theft. Whether you agree with piracy or not, you cannot say it's theft. If i walk into a restaurant and take a meal without paying, that is theft. If I make a copy of that meal you cannot say that is theft.
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It is theft of intellectual property, rather than the theft of tangible goods. The end result is the same. Someone worked hard, spent money, did whatever to build something, write something, compute something, and someone else aquired it without the consent of the owner of said item.
Now, it is true that copyright does protect the owner of such intellectual property (and tangible goods too) from unlawful copying, but it is defined as a crime by most countries.
Of course with most software today, it isn't so much about having it .. software companies generally give you a copy for free, but you have to purchase the license.
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Did you pay Isaac Newton for his derived equations to explain the physics of the natural world?
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Did you pay Isaac Newton for his derived equations to explain the physics of the natural world?
He wasn't in for the money
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Or maybe he felt he had no right to claim ownership to knowledge, like many European cultures?
Keith, (or anyone), do you believe that a government's laws are the supreme source of authority, or do you believe there are greater things that dictate rights and morality?
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Yes
However due to mankinds inability to act morally, it has become the burden of governments, and or religions to pass laws in an effort to enforce morality onto society.
If all of us lived out our lives in the manner of (buddha, alla, or jawe) pick one; then there would be no need for any laws.
however we don't; so there are
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And if one holds a freedom or tenant of morality that Knowledge is free and accessible to anyone, then would not copyright law impede this in many forms and fashions, if it were to inhibit students who are not profitting monetarily from the use of said software? If there is knowledge being governed and distributed to only a select class or group, then that would surely prove unjust to many tenants and beliefs in much of the world.
However, the USA, placing the dollar above all else, impedes many things in honest and victimless situations.
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when one puts a price on everything, nothing has any value
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively? Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively?
Yep.
Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
That is not what is under question. What is under question here is the morality of using a "pirate" copy (bear in mind, it locks a student into that platform...) over a student license (both of which cost exactly... £0 to the end person. Meaning a whole £0 loss in profits to AutoDesk - how will they ever absorb losses on that scale?!?)
I actually applaud the lecturer for giving his students an uninhibited copy of AutoCAD. The students get to use a "proper" copy of Vanilla, AutoDesk lose a whole £0, with the end result being that the students get trained up on AutoCAD... which equates to an extra seat (etc) sold by AutoDesk once the student graduates. It's a pretty well known fact that a lot of programs have only become de facto due to rampant piracy of their products, resulting in spiralling sales. Hell, it doesn't just apply to software, but also music.
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively? Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
They don't get paid for the student version, do they?
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively? Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
They don't get paid for the student version, do they?
Yes they do .. sombody had to write it and compile it
Also, the student version does cost money, it isn't free
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively? Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
They don't get paid for the student version, do they?
Yes they do .. sombody had to write it and compile it
That's not what he meant and you know it. He was referring to AutoDesk, not the programmers.
Also, the student version does cost money, it isn't free
Well, it didn't cost me a penny.
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Interesting discussion. Am I wrong in assuming we all get paid for our time, and the knowlege to use it productively? Shouldn't writers of software be able to do the same?
They don't get paid for the student version, do they?
Yes they do .. sombody had to write it and compile it
Also, the student version does cost money, it isn't free
Not to the student is doesn't.
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I suppose we could go around and around with this .. the student version of 2010 is about $150 .. it includes a CD and license key, but it does not include the manual.
The student version is fully functional and exactly the same as the full version with the exception of the educational plot stamp, which by the way can easily be defeated because it is nothing more than a setting saved in the drawing. If it is there the plot stamp is on .. not there .. plot stamp is off.
For those of you who are unaware, the only difference in the student version CD and the full version CD is the label. If you take a CD with a student version label and install it using a full license key, it will function as a full license.
This is not common knowledge ... I got the student version some time ago and when I "upgraded", I simply had to uninstall the student version and reinstall with the new key .. voila .. full version.
So all of these arguments about the student version being crippled ... not true .. the assertion that the student version is free ... also not true
If you want to argue about legitimizing an unlawful practice, at least find a compelling argument.
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I suppose we could go around and around with this .. the student version of 2010 is about $150 .. it includes a CD and license key, but it does not include the manual.
The student version is fully functional and exactly the same as the full version with the exception of the educational plot stamp, which by the way can easily be defeated because it is nothing more than a setting saved in the drawing. If it is there the plot stamp is on .. not there .. plot stamp is off.
For those of you who are unaware, the only difference in the student version CD and the full version CD is the label. If you take a CD with a student version label and install it using a full license key, it will function as a full license.
This is not common knowledge ... I got the student version some time ago and when I "upgraded", I simply had to uninstall the student version and reinstall with the new key .. voila .. full version.
So all of these arguments about the student version being crippled ... not true .. the assertion that the student version is free ... also not true
If you want to argue about legitimizing an unlawful practice, at least find a compelling argument.
If you want to argue about how the practice is unethical, at least don't spread lies.
KTHX
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For those of you who are unaware, the only difference in the student version CD and the full version CD is the label. If you take a CD with a student version label and install it using a full license key, it will function as a full license.
This is not common knowledge ... I got the student version some time ago and when I "upgraded", I simply had to uninstall the student version and reinstall with the new key .. voila .. full version.
So all of these arguments about the student version being crippled ... not true ..
Also: The only difference between different Vista distros is the label and the key. Are you telling me that Vista Basic (or whatever it's called) is exactly the same as Vista Ultimate?
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So all of these arguments about the student version being crippled ... not true .. the assertion that the student version is free ... also not true
If you want to argue about legitimizing an unlawful practice, at least find a compelling argument.
We already covered what the Cripples are on different software... and you yourself state... the cripples are there... and go away when you register it with the full, paid for license... if there were no cripples then why would you need to use a paid for license?
*edit* ugh, I'm sorry, I'm pretty crabby this morning... long, long night, and coffee isn't kicking in fast enough...
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... The only difference between different Vista distros is the label and the key. Are you telling me that Vista Basic (or whatever it's called) is exactly the same as Vista Ultimate?
We aren't talking about Vista ... your attempt to change the discussion is rejected
We already covered what the Cripples are on different software... and you yourself state... the cripples are there... and go away when you register it with the full, paid for license... if there were no cripples then why would you need to use a paid for license?
The only difference is the plot stamp .. and never did I say that the software was crippled, in fact I just re-read my comments to make sure that whatever I did say couldn't me mistaken as saying such. Your attempt to make me out to have said something is unappreciated.
plot stamp != crippled
The educational plot stamp is printed on ALL versions of AutoCAD, full license or not, if the drawing was created on a student version.
Now about AutoCAD Student version being free ... how about that .. a change from business as usual, as of the spring semester, A2k9 was $152 for a 14 month license .. it still doesn't change the fact that the software is (or at least was in A2k9) materially the same.
Tuoni, according to the Autodesk website, the one you seem to be pointing to for your information, AutoCAD was added to the free software available as of April 15, 2009, although the student engineering and design community has been available since 2006. So yeah, it has been free for about 4 months ... only to registered students or via recommendation from an educator.
All this being said still doesn't excuse piracy
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What damage is done if a student uses a cracked version? What damages does Autodesk have to say they have incurred?
And sorry, ever since I've been a student of drafting from 2001-2004, I've seen various places to try SELL you the Student version, or give you the CD free, and charge for the key, or what not, but the Student version was always available for free from the right places (no, not pirate ships) ... it was the textbooks that "came with" Autocad Student Version that required you buy an activation code, that I remember... silly scam, if you ask me.
If you would widen your perspective a bit, to focus on more than just AutoCAD, since the discussion, I thought, was about the principle of their software in general, and not AutoCAD, AutoDESK software is crippled in many varying ways.
I've already stated why even just a PLOT STAMP -is- a major cripple to the success and ability of a student to thrive in their student endevours. Feel free to read back, you can read it, just as easy as I can quote it.
AutoCAD is not even the worst offender in Autodesk's lineup of handicaps.
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... The only difference between different Vista distros is the label and the key. Are you telling me that Vista Basic (or whatever it's called) is exactly the same as Vista Ultimate?
We aren't talking about Vista ... your attempt to change the discussion is rejected
I wasn't trying to change the subject, I was merely pointing out it's a fallacy to say that because the software on the CD is the same that it's identical when installed.
Now about AutoCAD Student version being free ... how about that .. a change from business as usual, as of the spring semester, A2k9 was $152 for a 14 month license ..
Well it doesn't change the fact that it's free now.
Tuoni, according to the Autodesk website, the one you seem to be pointing to for your information, AutoCAD was added to the free software available as of April 15, 2009, although the student engineering and design community has been available since 2006. So yeah, it has been free for about 4 months ... only to registered students or via recommendation from an educator.
Yes, I realise this. I've been a member of the student thingie for a year or so - that's how I knew itr was free. 1) I got the email 2) I have a copy of it.
All this being said still doesn't excuse piracy
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, since the software (in your words) is materially the same, and as you have just said yourself is free... how does piracy of AutoCAD by a student for use in learning cause a problem?
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Autocad is not crippled .. there is merely a plot stamp, thus pirating a license to remove the plot stamp does not materially affect to the ability of a student to learn.
So, I suppose we havn't been discussing the issue at the crux of the matter.
What can you do with the full version that you cannot do with the student version?
The only somewhat legitimate answer is that you can't feel all warm and fuzzy about giving a plotted drawing to a prospective employer.
Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Ok, so here is a better question ... Would you personally purchase a full license of AutoCAD <enter version number here> after you have completed your student training IF you had a full version given to you for free?
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Autocad is not crippled .. there is merely a plot stamp, thus pirating a license to remove the plot stamp does not materially affect to the ability of a student to learn.
*sigh*... fine... here goes:
You upload a student-copy-made .dwg to any support forum, here, autodesk DG, or anywhere... yea.. just SEE how much help you get.
You print out some student drawings (not sure if they still do the watermark or border, but they used to) and see how professional it looks when you try to bring work examples to an employer.
So, I suppose we havn't been discussing the issue at the crux of the matter.
What can you do with the full version that you cannot do with the student version?
Get help?
The only somewhat legitimate answer is that you can't feel all warm and fuzzy about giving a plotted drawing to a prospective employer.
Warm and fuzzy? You think that's all there is to it? What an open mind you have. Something tells me you made up your mind long before even bothering to read what anyone says.
Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Steal what? What is Autodesk missing?
Ok, so here is a better question ... Would you personally purchase a full license of AutoCAD <enter version number here> after you have completed your student training IF you had a full version given to you for free?
Am I making money with it? If so, yes.
Am I simple a continuing student of the trade? Probably not, no.
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Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Piracy != stealing. Piracy != theft. Even though this is true in all cases, it has been proven in this thread that nothing is "stolen" from AutoDesk by a student pirating a copy of AutoCAD. They lose nothing. They gain a locked-in student.
Ok, so here is a better question ... Would you personally purchase a full license of AutoCAD <enter version number here> after you have completed your student training IF you had a full version given to you for free?
Why would I purchase a copy if I was given one? That's like saying would I go out and buy a copy of Windows 7 even though I get it for free anyway? Please rephrase that question, I'm honestly not quite sure what you're getting at.
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As a prospective employer of a user of autocad, or any product; I would have no issue with a STUDENT showing me work done on a(n) educational version of any product autocad or otherwise. Because I would know and understand that as a STUDENT they might not own or have access to the full version of the product. The fact that they took the time and energy to learn or master any version of the software product(s) I need them to know how to operate is a plus to me.
I would never have a problem with a STUDENT showing me their STUDENT projects as evidence of the lack of drive or tenacity to learn said applications. The opposite would be true.
"Gee Mr. Employer I can't show you samples of my work; because I only have the STUDENT version." Is going to get you NOT employed faster than showing me samples from a STUDENT version will get you the job.
And none of this has anything to do with any software publisher making any profit from the STUDENT version or not.
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Geez .. you guys are really spinning this one ...
Ok, you are a "student" ... you should be getting "help" from your instructor and labs at school, however, that being said, I recognize that there is a huge amount of help available for people in online resources. I have seen only a few instances where getting help required uploading a drawing, but I recognize the need does exist, however, that is a failure of people and their ignorance, not a failure of Autodesk and their plot stamp scheme. Opening a student version drawing will not cause every file to be infected, but using said file in a different drawing WILL. So as far as people not wanting student version drawings uploaded to forums and the such, it is because someone may use your drawing in another, thus they are taking your work for their own and subsequently they have the educational plot stamp as well. Seems perfectly logical to me ... but just in case I haven't been clear ... I have no problems with helping someone who has a student version drawing that I need to look at in order to resolve the issue, and there are lots of other folks who don't have a problem with it. Mainly because I won't be using it except to diagnose the issue, when the issue is resolved the drawing is trashed.
~ plot stamp is inconsequential
Tuoni ... the question is relatively simple ... but I'll play along ...
Lets say you were given AutoCAD 2010 full version by your instructor and rather than use a student version, you used the "full version" .. ok, fast forward to past graduation ... you still have the pirated copy of AutoCAD 2010, do you continue to use it or do you go out and spend the £2000 for a legitimate license?
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Ok, you are a "student" ... you should be getting "help" from your instructor and labs at school,
Those who can, do... those who can't... teach. I learned more on theSwamp, in a few months than my entire academic career.
however, that being said, I recognize that there is a huge amount of help available for people in online resources. I have seen only a few instances where getting help required uploading a drawing, but I recognize the need does exist, however, that is a failure of people and their ignorance, not a failure of Autodesk and their plot stamp scheme.
what what whaaaaaaaaat? A "few" instances? You're joking right? I'll eat my hat if you go through the "Dynamic Blocks" section and tell me that less than 3/4 of the threads pertaining to a specific project/problem did not benefit from the uploading of the drawing.
Opening a student version drawing will not cause every file to be infected, but using said file in a different drawing WILL. So as far as people not wanting student version drawings uploaded to forums and the such, it is because someone may use your drawing in another, thus they are taking your work for their own and subsequently they have the educational plot stamp as well. Seems perfectly logical to me ... but just in case I haven't been clear ... I have no problems with helping someone who has a student version drawing that I need to look at in order to resolve the issue, and there are lots of other folks who don't have a problem with it. Mainly because I won't be using it except to diagnose the issue, when the issue is resolved the drawing is trashed.
~ plot stamp is inconsequential
Now who's spinning.
I'm talking about reality, not your ideal, contrived, world where people won't fear the plot stamp. Simple fact: people run like gazelle from a lion when someone says "Warning: educational file!"
I don't mind helping people with an educational file either... I click right on by the warning Autocad pops up... doesn't change the simple fact that most don't. Reality.
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I have never had any issues working with a(n) Educational file.
I will help any and all users; more prevalent are issues I run into due to version or prodcut incompatibility.
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Tuoni ... the question is relatively simple ... but I'll play along ...
Lets say you were given AutoCAD 2010 full version by your instructor and rather than use a student version, you used the "full version" .. ok, fast forward to past graduation ... you still have the pirated copy of AutoCAD 2010, do you continue to use it or do you go out and spend the Ł2000 for a legitimate license?
If I was earning money off it, I would go out and buy the license. Though, actually, I'd get a developer license. If I was using it to learn and get to grips with the software (which is ultimately in AutoDesk's favour...) then in your example no, I wouldn't. I'd continue to use the pirated version. AutoDesk *still* haven't lost a penny, because in that case I wouldn't go out and buy the license anyway!
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Those who can, do... those who can't... teach. I learned more on theSwamp, in a few months than my entire academic career.
So what are the folks here? doers or teachers?
what what whaaaaaaaaat? A "few" instances? You're joking right? I'll eat my hat if you go through the "Dynamic Blocks" section and tell me that less than 3/4 of the threads pertaining to a specific project/problem did not benefit from the uploading of the drawing.
dynamic blocks are but a fraction of the problems people request help with, as evidenced by the huge number of topics in other CAD related forum subjects
Now who's spinning.
I'm talking about reality, not your ideal, contrived, world where people won't fear the plot stamp. Simple fact: people run like gazelle from a lion when someone says "Warning: educational file!"
I don't mind helping people with an educational file either... I click right on by the warning Autocad pops up... doesn't change the simple fact that most don't. Reality.
No spin whatsoever .. the gazelle pace at which people flee an "educational drawing" is due to ignorance on their part, just like early Europeans didn't eat tomatos because they were poison .. and those who did were obviously witches because they didn't die .. that doesn't make tomatos bad, it just makes the masses ignorant ... and quite honestly, would you want to take advice from someone like that?
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Those who can, do... those who can't... teach. I learned more on theSwamp, in a few months than my entire academic career.
So what are the folks here? doers or teachers?
what what whaaaaaaaaat? A "few" instances? You're joking right? I'll eat my hat if you go through the "Dynamic Blocks" section and tell me that less than 3/4 of the threads pertaining to a specific project/problem did not benefit from the uploading of the drawing.
dynamic blocks are but a fraction of the problems people request help with, as evidenced by the huge number of topics in other CAD related forum subjects
Now who's spinning.
I'm talking about reality, not your ideal, contrived, world where people won't fear the plot stamp. Simple fact: people run like gazelle from a lion when someone says "Warning: educational file!"
I don't mind helping people with an educational file either... I click right on by the warning Autocad pops up... doesn't change the simple fact that most don't. Reality.
No spin whatsoever .. the gazelle pace at which people flee an "educational drawing" is due to ignorance on their part, just like early Europeans didn't eat tomatos because they were poison .. and those who did were obviously witches because they didn't die .. that doesn't make tomatos bad, it just makes the masses ignorant ... and quite honestly, would you want to take advice from someone like that?
People still run from the stamp though: fact. Possible help is lost.
Do students not need to learn about Dynamic Blocks? That is one example, but a good one... it's far from the only topic aided up uploading drawings, either.
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What damage is done if a student uses a cracked version? What damages does Autodesk have to say they have incurred?
Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Steal what? What is Autodesk missing?
Anyone?
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Dynamic blocks are indeed a good example of how a drawing is helpful to resolve issues, however, it isn't a fault of the plot stamp, it is a fault of ignorant people running around like chicken little. I'd be less likely to ask for help from someone like that anyway ... if they are that afraid of a drawing that they dare not even download it, then they have some serious issues already .. not the kind of help I need .. sorry
What damage is done if a student uses a cracked version? What damages does Autodesk have to say they have incurred?
Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Steal what? What is Autodesk missing?
Anyone?
They are missing revenue from those who would continue to use the pirated version, they are losing the rights granted to them under copyright law to control who has legitimate rights to use their software.
If you were to design a building and you sell those plans to one person, would you be upset if he gave out thousands of copies to his friends and collegues around the world so they too could build a building using your plans?
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Dynamic blocks are indeed a good example of how a drawing is helpful to resolve issues, however, it isn't a fault of the plot stamp, it is a fault of ignorant people running around like chicken little. I'd be less likely to ask for help from someone like that anyway ... if they are that afraid of a drawing that they dare not even download it, then they have some serious issues already .. not the kind of help I need .. sorry
So if the stamp wasn't there, the chicken littles would be able to help, though, right? Help with the basics that a student might need doesn't always require a master artisan of the software.
What damage is done if a student uses a cracked version? What damages does Autodesk have to say they have incurred?
Sorry, that is not a legitimate reason to steal, at least not as far as I am concerned.
Steal what? What is Autodesk missing?
Anyone?
They are missing revenue from those who would continue to use the pirated version, they are losing the rights granted to them under copyright law to control who has legitimate rights to use their software.
Oh yea, I forgot, Autodesk makes a lot of cash off those student versions... my bad.
If you were to design a building and you sell those plans to one person, would you be upset if he gave out thousands of copies to his friends and collegues around the world so they too could build a building using your plans?
Your apples taste like oranges. Extremely spun, lie-coated, FUD-injected oranges.
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your arguments are getting more lame by the post ...
So if the stamp wasn't there, the chicken littles would be able to help, though, right? Help with the basics that a student might need doesn't always require a master artisan of the software.
you are correct, but the masters would still be there and would be willing to help .. I guess it comes down to .. would you prefer help from Luke or Obi Wan .. or would you forgo help from the masters just so chicken little could help .. how silly an argument is that
Oh yea, I forgot, Autodesk makes a lot of cash off those student versions... my bad.
Please re-read my comment .. your attempts at twistery did not go unnoticed
Your apples taste like oranges. Extremely spun, lie-coated, FUD-injected oranges.
So, you would be ok with it then .. you are alot more magnanimous than 300 million others in this country
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:|
I'm done.
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:|
I'm done.
*Sticks a fork in JC*
Yup! He is!
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:|
I'm done.
*Sticks a fork in JC*
Yup! He is!
[voice=Pilsbury Doughboy] hooHOOOOOO [/voice]
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Wow, there's almost a full week on this thread. Tonight, we're going out for dinner there again and I have a bunch of electrical substation structural Acad drawings I want to give to Amy (the one with the subject professor). I'm trying to talk her into going into structural instead of architectural.
So, anyone wanna say anything to Amy or give her a message for her prof??
Bob G.
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Thanks for the abstract lesson in loose morals...
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Wow, there's almost a full week on this thread. Tonight, we're going out for dinner there again and I have a bunch of electrical substation structural Acad drawings I want to give to Amy (the one with the subject professor). I'm trying to talk her into going into structural instead of architectural.
So, anyone wanna say anything to Amy or give her a message for her prof??
Bob G.
"Good to see there're teachers that still care about their students" ?
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Wow, there's almost a full week on this thread. Tonight, we're going out for dinner there again and I have a bunch of electrical substation structural Acad drawings I want to give to Amy (the one with the subject professor). I'm trying to talk her into going into structural instead of architectural.
So, anyone wanna say anything to Amy or give her a message for her prof??
Bob G.
Ask her if there are also courses in ethics, and if she is enrolled in them.
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I agree. This country is rampantly overpowered by people who have replaced "ethical" with "legal" in the world of right and wrong. Some philosophy or ethics classes would be a very good way to open the mind the enable stronger thinking.
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I agree. This country is rampantly overpowered by people who have replaced "ethical" with "legal" in the world of right and wrong. Some philosophy or ethics classes would be a very good way to open the mind the enable stronger thinking.
Me thinks you just might be confusing the two myself.
Just because you do not believe what you are doing isn't illegal, does not make doing it ethical.
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I agree. This country is rampantly overpowered by people who have replaced "ethical" with "legal" in the world of right and wrong. Some philosophy or ethics classes would be a very good way to open the mind the enable stronger thinking.
Me thinks you just might be confusing the two myself.
Just because you do not believe what you are doing isn't illegal, does not make doing it ethical.
You're right. Very right. The two have nothing to do with eachother at all. Thanks for backing me up.
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Ethics is two things. First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.
Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.
emphasis added is mine....
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ok
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so it would appear that STEALING is both illegal and unethical
some might even call it SINNING
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I agree with that post. Stealing is illegal, obviously. I also hold it to be unethical. Depending on your tenants, it's very dominantly a sin, as well.
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Me thinks you just might be confusing the two myself.
Just because you do not believe what you are doing isn't illegal, does not make doing it ethical.
Amen Brother!!!
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I saw Amy again last night; she's the one with the illegal ACAD from her prof. She said she tried to install the copy of ACAD and it wouldn't. I told her she needed authorization codes. She knew that and also knew the copy was illegal. She was actually very sheepish about doing all of this.
Well I guess justice was served in the end insofar as illegalities were prevented. Amy said the students had full ACAD access in computer lab.
Bob G.
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Amy said the students had full ACAD access in computer lab.
...hmmm... oh Really! ;-)
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I dont think our office owns a legal copy of any autodesk product, come to that most software outside of the usual MS office!
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I dont think our office owns a legal copy of any autodesk product, come to that most software outside of the usual MS office!
See, now that I really can't agree with/defend. Why should you guys earn money using software you don't have a license to use? That's no different to the guy stood on a street corner selling "knocked-off" DVDs.
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I dont like it, far from it I am with you, I personally have a licenced copy (I used to have my own company before the downturn), so you could say as I am using my own licence, I am legit.
We had a job that required PDF underlays and at the time I could only do this easily using my licence that had the bonus pack at the time.
I asked them if they would pay for me subs this year or give a contribution, as I was now using my licenced version, they told me where to go!
The powers that be here won't pay for it, although they use it for their day to day business.!! if I could get a job somewhere else and report them I would!!
The bosses Beamers and Audis are kosher of course!
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if I could get a job somewhere else and report them I would!!
And I don't blame you! Sadly, I guess they're working on the basis that everyone wants to keep their jobs and will, therefore, keep it hushed up.
The bosses Beamers and Audis are kosher of course!
Figures :ugly:
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Uhmmm, I stopped reading this thread after the first page, but -
Students can download perfectly legal Autodesk fully-functional products for free from http://engineersrule.org and register to activate free 13-month student license. I have been doing this for the past 4 or 5 years. And yes it does print banner. As a faculty member I see that as evidence of ethical use of free student learning software, not a distraction.
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At least you admitted to not reading the thread, but if you had you'd realise we'd already discussed this.
If you're not going to read the rest of the thread, it boiled down to this: the fallacies that "piracy is theft" (it isn't), "piracy is stealing" (nope, it isn't that, either) and "piracy is a sin" (maybe to some it might be, though I don't remember reading about Jesus standing up and declaring "THOU SHALT NOT SHARE SOFTWARE"... oh, that and the idea of sin also requires religious belief, but hey... :/) versus trying to discuss why others don't see a problem with it.
There was also discussion about the banner from both sides. Well, I say discussion...
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..... it boiled down to this: the fallacies that "piracy is theft" (it isn't), "piracy is stealing" (nope, it isn't that, either) ..................
and there are some of us who will disagree with this analysis.
:)
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..... it boiled down to this: the fallacies that "piracy is theft" (it isn't), "piracy is stealing" (nope, it isn't that, either) ..................
and there are some of us who will disagree with this analysis.
:)
What, that piracy isn't theft or stealing? Well... it isn't. If you steal a car, that's not a breach of copyright. If you walk into a shop and fill your bag with CDs, that is theft. You download something in a way which breaks copyright, it isn't theft, it's breaking copyright. If it *was* theft, why have all of the lawsuits (when was the last time you heard of one going to court, btw?) been civil ones, and not criminal ones?
Tell you what, you copy my car, I'll steal yours and we'll call it quits, k?
;)
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Stealing is a moral concept not a legal one.
.. and my moral base is not religious.
I choose to make no further comment on this subject.
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..... it boiled down to this: the fallacies that "piracy is theft" (it isn't), "piracy is stealing" (nope, it isn't that, either) ..................
and there are some of us who will disagree with this analysis.
:)
What, that piracy isn't theft or stealing? Well... it isn't. If you steal a car, that's not a breach of copyright. If you walk into a shop and fill your bag with CDs, that is theft. You download something in a way which breaks copyright, it isn't theft, it's breaking copyright. If it *was* theft, why have all of the lawsuits (when was the last time you heard of one going to court, btw?) been civil ones, and not criminal ones?
Tell you what, you copy my car, I'll steal yours and we'll call it quits, k?
;)
Sweet! So when can we expect you to post all of your source code, blocks, templates, standards, and the like? As you said, its not stealing - its just a copy.
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I believe a lot of this discussion could be centered around what version of AutoCad is being copied? My
personal opinion is if you are using an older version, that 's not supported any longer by Autodesk and use it
for learning purposes, it seems to me that it would actually benefit Autodesk. Because when you have gone
as far as you can with using an older version, you will need to purchase the newer release anyway to keep
up with all the current versions in order to attain a position in the working world. So a copy of a newer, supported release would be unethical. Most employers won't usually consider an applicant for a job unless
they have experience with the latest version(s) of AutoCad. Does this make since? Just my 2 cents.
vinnyg