Author Topic: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question  (Read 4221 times)

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surveyor_randy

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C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« on: June 05, 2008, 08:25:02 AM »
Here is the scenario:

I am doing a variable width roadway.  The contractor wants me to set points on the EOP at 50' stations along the alignment.  If this was a typical ROW with a constant distance to EOP, this is no problem.  But since the distance to the EOP varies, I am kinda at a loss of an easy way to accomplish this.  I already created a featureline as my EOP.  There is no corridor.  This file was from an outside firm, originally done in Microstation and converted to a .DWG file (why the various DOTs like microstation is beyond me)

I could do it the old fashioned way with creating lines, trimming, setting points, etc but I figured that one of you creative geniuses at the swamp might have a better way.  Thanks!

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 10:02:30 AM »
go ahead and make an alignment, or at least a feature line for it, you can get your vertex elevations from the terrain model at this step.

convert the feature line into a figure and export the points from there

Or set your points along that EOP and then run the station and offset report.

Or use one of the SINKPAK3D tools..

Leaning heavily towards using an alignment...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:06:21 AM by mjfarrell »
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Michael Farrell
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surveyor_randy

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 10:49:29 AM »
Thanks Michael,

I already have an alignment.  No DTM surface was provided to us and the surface you are seeing was generated from plan and profile.  I am trying to find a way to generate cogo points offset from the the alignment at specific stations without having to type in an offset distance.  Points -> Create Points - Alignment -> Station/Offset.  I would like to type in the station number (ex: 1050) and then click on the EOP line and have it generate the point there rather then having to type a distance to the EOP.  The only way I can think of to accomplish this would be to draw perpendicular lines at each station and then set cogo points at where that perpendicular line is intersecting the EOP.

I'm not sure that I am being very clear on this.  At a given station along an alignment, I would like to be able to generate a cogo point perpendicular to the alignment on a selected line without having to type in a distance.  I'm not sure this is possible.

sinc

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 11:23:28 AM »
You already have an alignment, and a feature line for EOP.  I'd simply build a corridor, and use that to generate the points (using the Create COGO Points from Corridor command).

Your corridor simply needs a single link that can extend to the EOP line, using it as a target.

If you have 2009, simply name that feature line and use it as the target.  For 2008, there is a command in the Sincpac-C3D that turns feature lines into profiles and alignments in a single step, but it's also possible without that command (although I don't remember how many steps you'll have to go through - it's been a while since I've done stuff like that "the long way").

The benefit of using a corridor is that it will keep all your points at exactly the right station.  If you try to generate points along the EOP line directly, it won't follow the CL stationing.

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 11:32:21 AM »
sure, lets just use the proper command then....


Points>>Create Points - Alignments >>Station and Offest

Command: _AeccCreatePointStationOffset
Select alignment: <pick the alignment you want to reference>

Specify station: <enter desired station>
Specify an offset <0.000>: here you define the offset with pick points
Specify second point <0.000>:

Enter a point description <.>:

Specify a point elevation <.>:
and continue.

I assure you that you probably would get this done faster this way.

Use your centerline alignment, and define a sample line group.
Then set points along that offset where the sample lines intersect your eop.

You could expand on this and create a simple corridor that would also give you your points automatically from the corridor. Even without a terrain model in fact.
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2008, 12:12:33 PM »

I assure you that you probably would get this done faster this way.


Maybe over a very small area.

surveyor_randy

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 12:25:26 PM »
The only problem with the way that you suggested Michael, is that you already need a point on the line in order to do the pick points for your distance.  Let's assume that you have a road that is 1000 feet long and the EOP is a straight grade from one end to the other.  There are no intermediate points on this EOP feature line.  This line (EOP) is 20' off of the centerline (alignment) at one end and 60' off of the centerline at the other.  Is there a way to create a cogo point on this line (EOP) that would be perpendicular off of the alignment at a specific station?  I don't really care about the elevation because I can just pull the elevation from the feature line once the point has been created.  Right now, I'm thinking that I just need to draw perpendicular lines at the stations along the alignment and create a cogo point where the drawn line intersects the EOP and go that route.

It seems stupid to me if I'm not able to create points along an object based on a reference alignment.  Here would be the methodology I would like to see.

Select the alignment for the baseline:
Enter station number:
Select an object:

This would create a cogo point on an object offset from the specified station along the baseline.  The offset distance is really unimportant, what is important is that the cogo point would be on the selected object and perpendicular to the baseline at the given station.

Maybe I'll have to vba something that will do this, but again, it seems pretty dumb on Autodesks part if C3D doesn't have this functionality built in.

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 12:42:43 PM »
see sample line, or corridor method above
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Michael Farrell
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surveyor_randy

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 01:38:37 PM »
Thanks Michael,  I overlooked the part about using section lines.  Nice tip!   :-) At least that keeps me from having to manually draw perpendicular lines to the baseline.  I can probably vba a routine that will put a cogo point on the section line anywhere it intersects a feature line and then extract the elevation from that feature line.

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 01:53:56 PM »
build it as a corridor...

Create an alignment for center done...
Create and alignment along the eop
Create a profile....build a fake surface @ elevation 0 with a rectangular 'breakline'
Your Assembly
Link offset and slope
when you build the corridor assign your eop as the alignment for the offset to follow.
The use Corridor>>Utilities>>COGO points.

One could finish this task in under 6 minutes....
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 03:53:53 PM »
build it as a corridor...

Create an alignment for center done...
Create and alignment along the eop
Create a profile....build a fake surface @ elevation 0 with a rectangular 'breakline'
Your Assembly
Link offset and slope
when you build the corridor assign your eop as the alignment for the offset to follow.
The use Corridor>>Utilities>>COGO points.

One could finish this task in under 6 minutes....

Now you are getting close to the method I outlined, except you lost me on that "build a fake surface" part...  Why build a fake surface?  I don't understand...  (I actually have not needed to build a fake surface yet in C3D, which has been one of the great joys of C3D vs. LDT.)

The difference between this method and the one I outlined is that I would run "CAPFEATURE" (from the Sincpac-C3D) on the featureline to turn it into an alignment+profile.  Then use the new align+prof (both of them) as the targets for the corridor, and generate cogo points from the corridor.  Result is a bunch of points, all graded and positioned along the EOP line; probably takes not much more than three minutes, no VBA required, no picking of points required...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 04:03:43 PM by sinc »

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 05:15:43 PM »
build it as a corridor...

Create an alignment for center done...
Create and alignment along the eop
Create a profile....build a fake surface @ elevation 0 with a rectangular 'breakline'
Your Assembly
Link offset and slope
when you build the corridor assign your eop as the alignment for the offset to follow.
The use Corridor>>Utilities>>COGO points.

One could finish this task in under 6 minutes....

Now you are getting close to the method I outlined, except you lost me on that "build a fake surface" part...  Why build a fake surface?  I don't understand...  (I actually have not needed to build a fake surface yet in C3D, which has been one of the great joys of C3D vs. LDT.)



that fake surface is to use as a profile for the corridor to follow....might not be needed, just get's them used to the process for when there is a real profile to follow.
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Michael Farrell
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surveyor_randy

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 05:28:40 PM »
Good suggestion.

Sinc, I'm sorry, I blazed through reading the posts and didn't even see your solution.  They work great with variable width right-of-ways.  To be honest, I am working on a round-about highway interchange and these solutions aren't going to work.  I have on ramp alignments, off ramp alignments, roundabout alignments and the EOP isn't following just one alignment.  I think that I am going to need to use the 'creating section lines' idea and then just drop cogo points on the eop, boc, toc, etc by manually placing cogo points using the apparent intersection snap then grab the elevation from the surface.  A lot of work coming up for the tech but at least we are staying billable!

mjfarrell

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 05:44:16 PM »
Good suggestion.

Sinc, I'm sorry, I blazed through reading the posts and didn't even see your solution.  They work great with variable width right-of-ways.  To be honest, I am working on a round-about highway interchange and these solutions aren't going to work.  I have on ramp alignments, off ramp alignments, roundabout alignments and the EOP isn't following just one alignment.  I think that I am going to need to use the 'creating section lines' idea and then just drop cogo points on the eop, boc, toc, etc by manually placing cogo points using the apparent intersection snap then grab the elevation from the surface.  A lot of work coming up for the tech but at least we are staying billable!


Randy,

It can still be done as a corridor even with all of your various alignments. You just need my class ;) to be efficient at it.
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: C3D 2008 - Stationing COGO Points question
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 06:07:39 PM »
Yep, like Michael says, it can be intimidating doing a complex corridor at first.

And truth be told, there are some things that really drive me crazy with them.  But they are also one of the most-powerful and flexible tools in the Civil-3D arsenal.

I know when we first started, the Corridor Properties dialog looked like an IRS tax form.  But after working with them for a while, we can do some amazing things in very little time.

There is a whole different class of "standard errors" that are easy to make when doing survey work with Corridors.  It takes some new processes and procedures, because there are different "likely errors", and therefore different procedures to make sure errors don't happen, etc.  But these days, when everything goes right, the work a single tech can calc in a day might have taken two-three weeks using Land Desktop.

It's very hard to get Surveyors "into the flow" of using C3D, especially since some key support is missing from C3D out-of-the-box (that's the entire reason the Sincpac-C3D exists).  And the learning curve is disturbing.  But once you get through it, you turn into a real "calc'ing machine", the way one of my customers called himself.

There's still those times when work with C3D comes to a crashing halt, until some new problem can be identified and worked-around.  But those times are getting fewer and further-between for us.  There's still a debate in some corners of the Land Survey world, about whether C3D is worth it, or if staying on LDT is better.  We don't even view it as a choice.  C3D is so much better than LDT that they aren't even in the same class.  But it takes quite a while of working with C3D to get to that point.  (Training helps immensely, but it still takes time.)