Author Topic: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview  (Read 8866 times)

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Dinosaur

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Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« on: May 19, 2008, 08:14:55 AM »
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I told you that I loved you and you said, "That is good."
I called you my darlin' and thought I always would.
But, now you've gone and left me and I don't know where you're at
You done stomped on my heart and mashed that sucker flat.
You Done Stomped on My Heart
Mason Williams

OK, enough of my inclination to make this some sort of morbid requiem . . . this was a professional relationship and therefore, it will be best handled by dissecting it with the modern phenomenon called an exit interview to determine what went wrong.  For better or worse, the primary focus of my professional career over the last 3 ½ years is now effectively over.  I have to deal with the reality that last Thursday, I likely fired up Civil 3D with the intent of creating production drawings for the last time.  Certainly there is a possibility of a different firm just waiting to exploit my Civil 3D talents, but for a variety of reasons I think this is unlikely at least for some time and herein is my purpose in writing this.  At least one Autodesk reseller if not Manchester and Autodesk corporate would seem to agree if this quote (taken with permission) is any indication.
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What we are finding is that Civil 3D isn't really getting strong backing (in terms of hiring/training) for the same reasons Revit didn't... the lack of economic benefits being strongly pushed. In other words, we need clients that demand that type of deliverable. Revit use is exploding because the GSA and a variety of clients are starting to demand the benefits.  The good news is that it looks like Civil 3D use (and users) will be in high demand in the next couple years, unfortunately that's obviously..well... 1-2 years from now. So much like Revit before it Civil 3D is slowly expanding in the market and is widely known to be software that will really explode in the marketplace, but it's a matter of time for the client (often government agencies) to really start pushing for it.
I saw this constantly while trying to implement Civil 3D, but it is not only the clients who are failing to embracing this new design software concept.  In reality, I submit the designers are the ONLY group really pushing for full implementation.  Civil 3D is a designer’s dream come true even with all the pimples and halitosis each new release either ignores or introduces.  It is certainly no boon for the entry level drafting staff because the construction documents can be 90% complete most of the way through the design process leaving precious little work for anyone with no design responsibility.

The other group, the ones that Autodesk THINKS have bought into the Civil 3D concept, is the senior engineers and principals who are making all of the pertinent decisions regarding purchase, implementation and training.  They couldn’t care less that this tool completely spoils the design staff by doing much of the tedious work for them and continuously keeps the drawings current with the design.  This group is anything but on board and Civil 3D seems to do every conceivable thing to sabotage its own case with them.  Still, even now in it’s sixth incarnation, there are very few things that can be taken that last 10% to full completion within the program and still show all of the annotation and detail in the format that they who affix their professional certification to, the reviewing agencies who specify and verify compliance with design criteria of, the contractors who have to correctly interpret along with the customer who is financially responsible for all of the design documents produced.  EACH of these groups have valid reasons for demanding the documents be produced in the format agreed to by all parties and Civil 3D can not yet do this completely within the program.  The claim that software limitations currently prevent any deviation is NOT an acceptable excuse.

Civil 3D can come tantalizingly close now with the ability to edit parts of the label text, but whenever the design modifies a labeled element, those edits are lost which can lead to some embarrassing moments when previously cleared comments revert to their former state later in the review process.  Worse, as designers rely more on the dynamic updating, the assumption grows that everything actually is working as intended and the design is current when it most certainly is not so.  It is quite easy to break the dynamic link between say, a surface and a set of profiles with no obvious visible clue that this has occurred, leaving structures vulnerable to be fabricated and delivered with tops at bad elevations - PRECISELY the situation dynamic design ties were intended to prevent.

Good training can limit many of the roadblocks to a successful implementation, but a lot of the guys making the decisions just don’t accept that reality.  There is a solution that is still viable that in some very important ways is superior to the replacement and spending more and taking more days out of production just to start becoming effective with an unproven upstart.  Many of these guys actually talk to each other and Civil 3D’s reputation has now been established.  It is not an enviable one.

The grand results – from the project manager’s view, this software:
A.   Is expensive to buy
B.   Requires a massive shift in workflow to be efficient
C.   Mandates initial and ongoing training for production staff
D.   Changes skin every year and takes at least 3 months before hitting the floor
E.   Is impossible to collaborate with any software other than the identical Civil 3D
F.   STILL needs to be checked and double checked for errors
G.   Cannot produce on its own a complete document set meeting the required formats

Even more damning, within this business climate, many engineers are cutting staff and intending to take up the slack by running the CAD engines themselves.  Most of them have put in significant time with more traditional design software and can at least make do on their own through the tough times.  At the very least, they know what their old software can do and how to work around the things that it can’t.  For the reasons above, there is zero incentive on their part to retrain themselves regardless of any benefit in doing so.  Since the new and the old don’t work and play nice together, almost universally the new kid is going down the road kicking rocks.

Much of the functionality of Civil 3D is lost on the guys who ultimately write the checks and this is why Revit has found more acceptance than I expect Civil 3D to ever garner.  Architects like a bit of their own flair embedded in every design.  An engineer simply wants a document that is complete, correct and can be interpreted and built with little or no further input from him.  The concept of applying a visual style to an object and using that to create a design document will have an engineer’s eyes glassed over in minutes and even though there is some benefit in presentation abilities, those things don’t make it into the field for construction.  Civil 3D is in many ways a solution to a problem the engineer either doesn’t have or can find another way around and arguably causes as many problems as it solves.

As the designer that I am though and in testimony to how hopelessly I have fallen for its charms, I have a trial copy that I can continue to mess with, tweak fiddle and prod at my leisure.  I will keep my skills current and education ongoing in hopes that I am wrong.  If only the guys writing the checks were so driven and motivated . . . and had reason to be so.

MSTG007

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 09:05:34 AM »
WOW. I know I say that alot, I actually agree with what you are saying. Just think, one day, You update just one thing, and everything else adjusts, based on your design critera. The labels and all update. All you would need to do is print off the updated constrcution set of drawings and the update drainage report. TAH DAH!!! and its all synced up and works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok. I am a dreamer.
Civil3D 2020

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 10:14:22 AM »
Yeah, right!

Right after they actually LINK the parcels to the alignments.....and they STAY that way.

And right after they FIX pipes so that they actually function, like ALL other C3D objects.( or at least like they did in Land Desktop, or better)

Hello Version 2015!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 11:45:11 AM by mjfarrell »
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Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 11:38:20 AM »
I have a question (and yes, I'll expand on it once I have an answer):

If initial training/information exchange wasn't an issue...  which software would you use?  Why would you choose it?  This isn't a "loaded question", I'm trying to understand which software would allow you to do your job more efficiently and why.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »
Hi Brian!

Interesting questions you pose there.  Also great to see another augi member swimming in The Swamp. It would appear that the member disaffection is occurring as I predicted.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 12:10:59 PM »
I have a question (and yes, I'll expand on it once I have an answer):

If initial training/information exchange wasn't an issue...  which software would you use?  Why would you choose it?  This isn't a "loaded question", I'm trying to understand which software would allow you to do your job more efficiently and why.
I was writing mostly from the point of view of the project managers and the owners of engineering firms nearly all of whom would be quite familiar with some vintage of Land Desktop.  Although new requirements are coming into play that push LDT to and sometimes beyond its ability, generally almost any version can produce a set of construction documents using their existing work flow and personnel.    If I were to speak for myself, I would not consider anything other than firing up Civil 3D 2008, but only because I am with it, all flaws and pimples included.  My only alternate choice would be either EDSC with R12 AutoCAD or EPWIN95 on AutoCAD 13.  I learned this trade using the former and used the latter in production for 10 years doing exactly the same work I was doing through last week.  I would miss some of the newer features built into AutoCAD but either of those products can still produce the needed work.  It would not be worth my time to try implementing alternatives built on the more recent AutoCAD engines.  I have used trial versions of products including Carlson, MicroSurvey and even the new flavor of EaglePoint.  With the exception of Eaglepoint, they all seem to be LDT in a slightly different wrapper.  The Eaglepoint experiment was hobbled by my choice to install it for work with Bricscad.  While that combination holds promise for a way to ditch Autodesk, I still prefer Civil 3D.  The wildcard entries that I have yet to explore are PowerCivil and Bentley XM.  I have yet to score a working Demo of either for full evaluation but given I have yet to draw a line with any Bentley product, erase it and successfully duplicate the feat, I expect to have some problems.

Birdy

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 12:16:27 PM »
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Good training can limit many of the roadblocks to a successful implementation, but a lot of the guys making the decisions just don’t accept that reality.
Unfortunately, that problem is not limited to C3D.  :-(  I feel your pain.

John Mayo

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 12:19:02 PM »
We may acutally get what we were promised when a real affordable alternate is available.

Until there is real compitition, Autodesk has all the cards.

Feeling the pain.

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 12:50:09 PM »
If I were to speak for myself, I would not consider anything other than firing up Civil 3D 2008, but only because I am with it, all flaws and pimples included.  My only alternate choice would be either EDSC with R12 AutoCAD or EPWIN95 on AutoCAD 13.  I learned this trade using the former and used the latter in production for 10 years doing exactly the same work I was doing through last week.  I would miss some of the newer features built into AutoCAD but either of those products can still produce the needed work. 

I'm concerned about the statement that you could do the work with essentially AutoCAD 12 or 13. While I'm sure you COULD do this with that software, do you see any advantage to using a program like Civil 3D instead?  Point being, you need to quantify value and if YOU (the power or end user) can't do that then that can be a real issue in terms of communicating value to those that make the decisions.  They (decision makers) DO care if you can quantify "this software will save use $5,000 every year".  This doesn't just apply to Civil 3D... it could be any software. The decision makers could care less which software you are using if you can prove that the software WILL make the company more money. This can range from reducing errors, decreasing liability risks, removing man-hours and even decreasing overhead.  Now if the software CAN'T accomplish these goals then I wouldn't change over to it either!  In the end any product is just a tool that you can leverage your skills and the skills of your team.  This leads back to my original question:

Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is it enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.  In the end, THIS is the information that isn't being communicated to the firm owners (and the value for them and the product they supply to the client) and the software won't be adopted quickly until these questions are answered and communicated.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:58:05 PM by Dilbert »

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 01:00:59 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.

Until one attempts to use it where the entire team did NOT get trained together.

Until one attempts to use it, AS IF it were Land Desktop

Until one discovers the Survey Functions Do NOT!

Until one deals with the abomination know as Vault for 'project' management, it isn't.

Until one discovers that pipe labels and styles are NON dynamic.

Until one discovers the Problems (challenges) with Parcels and Sites.

Until one gets 'malformed data' in ones corridor sections.

Until one Discovers that Parcels and Alignments are NOT truly dynamic.

Until one works with C3D and discovers that despite all of that power some simple, innocuous task are near impossible to accomplish.  Yeah C3D does add some value, however autodesk STILL shipped the Land Desktop Companion this year didn't they?  Even they know that C3D is failing their customers yet they fail to address those issues.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 01:29:24 PM »
. . . Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is ti enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.
This is exactly my central point.  Civil 3D has value to ME as the designer, but little or no benefit to the bean counters.  I am now spoiled by Civil 3D and would not truly be content working with any other product that did not offer the dynamic updating and labeling features Civil 3D offers.  After 30 some years in this business I am weary with the tedium of the  submittal process followed by the inevitable return for comments demanding a complete rework that must be returned in 3 days only to be repeated multiple times often with demands that the previously rejected solutions be adopted.  Civil 3D at least makes this process tolerable as long as the model remains fully associative.  I am both grumpy and lazy . . . doing the work once is OK, but beyond that I am no longer amused.  Despite this, I could retain some comfort level with the EaglePoint, but internal plotter issues eventually precluded the retention of r13 and we moved on to LDT 2005 and upgraded yearly from there.

So the bottom line is Civil 3D makes my professional life easier - in fact I would be in a completely different field now were I not able to use Civil 3D, but I see very little to compel an engineering firm that adopting Civil 3D would be in their best interest.  The only real arguments I can see in favor of upgrading would be the long rumored abandonment of Land Desktop and the threat of continuing format changes resulting interoperability issues.

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 02:50:53 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.


I'm thinking in terms of the "ideal" setup where employees actually know what they are doing...   :?  Of course if training staff is too difficult (due to the software not being intuitive) that could be a huge issue...

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 02:57:31 PM »
. . . Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is ti enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.
This is exactly my central point.  Civil 3D has value to ME as the designer, but little or no benefit to the bean counters. 

Ahhh... so it has value, just not ENOUGH value.... that I can likely understand.   By the way, in an early post someone mentioned "file format" change and I would assume that was referring to C3D objects, but AutoCAD 2010 will have a format change (that I do know about) and will once again require a "saveas..." to save it to previous versions. In that regard, we will see that change across the AutoCAD based products...

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 02:59:09 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.


I'm thinking in terms of the "ideal" setup where employees actually know what they are doing...   :?  Of course if training staff is too difficult (due to the software not being intuitive) that could be a huge issue...

C3D and the word intuitive do not belong in the same paragraph.
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Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 03:02:18 PM »
Hi Brian!

Interesting questions you pose there.  Also great to see another augi member swimming in The Swamp. It would appear that the member disaffection is occurring as I predicted.

By the way, I don't spend much time on AUGI anymore either... at least not posting.  I'm becoming more passionate about using the correct products and the processes (implementation and financial impact of these decisions) than the actual "how-to" picks and clicks. I'm an expert in those too (AutoCAD and Revit) but its not my topic of passion like it once was...