Author Topic: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview  (Read 8767 times)

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Dinosaur

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Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« on: May 19, 2008, 08:14:55 AM »
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I told you that I loved you and you said, "That is good."
I called you my darlin' and thought I always would.
But, now you've gone and left me and I don't know where you're at
You done stomped on my heart and mashed that sucker flat.
You Done Stomped on My Heart
Mason Williams

OK, enough of my inclination to make this some sort of morbid requiem . . . this was a professional relationship and therefore, it will be best handled by dissecting it with the modern phenomenon called an exit interview to determine what went wrong.  For better or worse, the primary focus of my professional career over the last 3 ½ years is now effectively over.  I have to deal with the reality that last Thursday, I likely fired up Civil 3D with the intent of creating production drawings for the last time.  Certainly there is a possibility of a different firm just waiting to exploit my Civil 3D talents, but for a variety of reasons I think this is unlikely at least for some time and herein is my purpose in writing this.  At least one Autodesk reseller if not Manchester and Autodesk corporate would seem to agree if this quote (taken with permission) is any indication.
Quote
What we are finding is that Civil 3D isn't really getting strong backing (in terms of hiring/training) for the same reasons Revit didn't... the lack of economic benefits being strongly pushed. In other words, we need clients that demand that type of deliverable. Revit use is exploding because the GSA and a variety of clients are starting to demand the benefits.  The good news is that it looks like Civil 3D use (and users) will be in high demand in the next couple years, unfortunately that's obviously..well... 1-2 years from now. So much like Revit before it Civil 3D is slowly expanding in the market and is widely known to be software that will really explode in the marketplace, but it's a matter of time for the client (often government agencies) to really start pushing for it.
I saw this constantly while trying to implement Civil 3D, but it is not only the clients who are failing to embracing this new design software concept.  In reality, I submit the designers are the ONLY group really pushing for full implementation.  Civil 3D is a designer’s dream come true even with all the pimples and halitosis each new release either ignores or introduces.  It is certainly no boon for the entry level drafting staff because the construction documents can be 90% complete most of the way through the design process leaving precious little work for anyone with no design responsibility.

The other group, the ones that Autodesk THINKS have bought into the Civil 3D concept, is the senior engineers and principals who are making all of the pertinent decisions regarding purchase, implementation and training.  They couldn’t care less that this tool completely spoils the design staff by doing much of the tedious work for them and continuously keeps the drawings current with the design.  This group is anything but on board and Civil 3D seems to do every conceivable thing to sabotage its own case with them.  Still, even now in it’s sixth incarnation, there are very few things that can be taken that last 10% to full completion within the program and still show all of the annotation and detail in the format that they who affix their professional certification to, the reviewing agencies who specify and verify compliance with design criteria of, the contractors who have to correctly interpret along with the customer who is financially responsible for all of the design documents produced.  EACH of these groups have valid reasons for demanding the documents be produced in the format agreed to by all parties and Civil 3D can not yet do this completely within the program.  The claim that software limitations currently prevent any deviation is NOT an acceptable excuse.

Civil 3D can come tantalizingly close now with the ability to edit parts of the label text, but whenever the design modifies a labeled element, those edits are lost which can lead to some embarrassing moments when previously cleared comments revert to their former state later in the review process.  Worse, as designers rely more on the dynamic updating, the assumption grows that everything actually is working as intended and the design is current when it most certainly is not so.  It is quite easy to break the dynamic link between say, a surface and a set of profiles with no obvious visible clue that this has occurred, leaving structures vulnerable to be fabricated and delivered with tops at bad elevations - PRECISELY the situation dynamic design ties were intended to prevent.

Good training can limit many of the roadblocks to a successful implementation, but a lot of the guys making the decisions just don’t accept that reality.  There is a solution that is still viable that in some very important ways is superior to the replacement and spending more and taking more days out of production just to start becoming effective with an unproven upstart.  Many of these guys actually talk to each other and Civil 3D’s reputation has now been established.  It is not an enviable one.

The grand results – from the project manager’s view, this software:
A.   Is expensive to buy
B.   Requires a massive shift in workflow to be efficient
C.   Mandates initial and ongoing training for production staff
D.   Changes skin every year and takes at least 3 months before hitting the floor
E.   Is impossible to collaborate with any software other than the identical Civil 3D
F.   STILL needs to be checked and double checked for errors
G.   Cannot produce on its own a complete document set meeting the required formats

Even more damning, within this business climate, many engineers are cutting staff and intending to take up the slack by running the CAD engines themselves.  Most of them have put in significant time with more traditional design software and can at least make do on their own through the tough times.  At the very least, they know what their old software can do and how to work around the things that it can’t.  For the reasons above, there is zero incentive on their part to retrain themselves regardless of any benefit in doing so.  Since the new and the old don’t work and play nice together, almost universally the new kid is going down the road kicking rocks.

Much of the functionality of Civil 3D is lost on the guys who ultimately write the checks and this is why Revit has found more acceptance than I expect Civil 3D to ever garner.  Architects like a bit of their own flair embedded in every design.  An engineer simply wants a document that is complete, correct and can be interpreted and built with little or no further input from him.  The concept of applying a visual style to an object and using that to create a design document will have an engineer’s eyes glassed over in minutes and even though there is some benefit in presentation abilities, those things don’t make it into the field for construction.  Civil 3D is in many ways a solution to a problem the engineer either doesn’t have or can find another way around and arguably causes as many problems as it solves.

As the designer that I am though and in testimony to how hopelessly I have fallen for its charms, I have a trial copy that I can continue to mess with, tweak fiddle and prod at my leisure.  I will keep my skills current and education ongoing in hopes that I am wrong.  If only the guys writing the checks were so driven and motivated . . . and had reason to be so.

MSTG007

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 09:05:34 AM »
WOW. I know I say that alot, I actually agree with what you are saying. Just think, one day, You update just one thing, and everything else adjusts, based on your design critera. The labels and all update. All you would need to do is print off the updated constrcution set of drawings and the update drainage report. TAH DAH!!! and its all synced up and works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok. I am a dreamer.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 10:14:22 AM »
Yeah, right!

Right after they actually LINK the parcels to the alignments.....and they STAY that way.

And right after they FIX pipes so that they actually function, like ALL other C3D objects.( or at least like they did in Land Desktop, or better)

Hello Version 2015!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 11:45:11 AM by mjfarrell »
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Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 11:38:20 AM »
I have a question (and yes, I'll expand on it once I have an answer):

If initial training/information exchange wasn't an issue...  which software would you use?  Why would you choose it?  This isn't a "loaded question", I'm trying to understand which software would allow you to do your job more efficiently and why.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »
Hi Brian!

Interesting questions you pose there.  Also great to see another augi member swimming in The Swamp. It would appear that the member disaffection is occurring as I predicted.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 12:10:59 PM »
I have a question (and yes, I'll expand on it once I have an answer):

If initial training/information exchange wasn't an issue...  which software would you use?  Why would you choose it?  This isn't a "loaded question", I'm trying to understand which software would allow you to do your job more efficiently and why.
I was writing mostly from the point of view of the project managers and the owners of engineering firms nearly all of whom would be quite familiar with some vintage of Land Desktop.  Although new requirements are coming into play that push LDT to and sometimes beyond its ability, generally almost any version can produce a set of construction documents using their existing work flow and personnel.    If I were to speak for myself, I would not consider anything other than firing up Civil 3D 2008, but only because I am with it, all flaws and pimples included.  My only alternate choice would be either EDSC with R12 AutoCAD or EPWIN95 on AutoCAD 13.  I learned this trade using the former and used the latter in production for 10 years doing exactly the same work I was doing through last week.  I would miss some of the newer features built into AutoCAD but either of those products can still produce the needed work.  It would not be worth my time to try implementing alternatives built on the more recent AutoCAD engines.  I have used trial versions of products including Carlson, MicroSurvey and even the new flavor of EaglePoint.  With the exception of Eaglepoint, they all seem to be LDT in a slightly different wrapper.  The Eaglepoint experiment was hobbled by my choice to install it for work with Bricscad.  While that combination holds promise for a way to ditch Autodesk, I still prefer Civil 3D.  The wildcard entries that I have yet to explore are PowerCivil and Bentley XM.  I have yet to score a working Demo of either for full evaluation but given I have yet to draw a line with any Bentley product, erase it and successfully duplicate the feat, I expect to have some problems.

Birdy

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 12:16:27 PM »
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Good training can limit many of the roadblocks to a successful implementation, but a lot of the guys making the decisions just don’t accept that reality.
Unfortunately, that problem is not limited to C3D.  :-(  I feel your pain.

John Mayo

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 12:19:02 PM »
We may acutally get what we were promised when a real affordable alternate is available.

Until there is real compitition, Autodesk has all the cards.

Feeling the pain.

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 12:50:09 PM »
If I were to speak for myself, I would not consider anything other than firing up Civil 3D 2008, but only because I am with it, all flaws and pimples included.  My only alternate choice would be either EDSC with R12 AutoCAD or EPWIN95 on AutoCAD 13.  I learned this trade using the former and used the latter in production for 10 years doing exactly the same work I was doing through last week.  I would miss some of the newer features built into AutoCAD but either of those products can still produce the needed work. 

I'm concerned about the statement that you could do the work with essentially AutoCAD 12 or 13. While I'm sure you COULD do this with that software, do you see any advantage to using a program like Civil 3D instead?  Point being, you need to quantify value and if YOU (the power or end user) can't do that then that can be a real issue in terms of communicating value to those that make the decisions.  They (decision makers) DO care if you can quantify "this software will save use $5,000 every year".  This doesn't just apply to Civil 3D... it could be any software. The decision makers could care less which software you are using if you can prove that the software WILL make the company more money. This can range from reducing errors, decreasing liability risks, removing man-hours and even decreasing overhead.  Now if the software CAN'T accomplish these goals then I wouldn't change over to it either!  In the end any product is just a tool that you can leverage your skills and the skills of your team.  This leads back to my original question:

Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is it enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.  In the end, THIS is the information that isn't being communicated to the firm owners (and the value for them and the product they supply to the client) and the software won't be adopted quickly until these questions are answered and communicated.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:58:05 PM by Dilbert »

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 01:00:59 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.

Until one attempts to use it where the entire team did NOT get trained together.

Until one attempts to use it, AS IF it were Land Desktop

Until one discovers the Survey Functions Do NOT!

Until one deals with the abomination know as Vault for 'project' management, it isn't.

Until one discovers that pipe labels and styles are NON dynamic.

Until one discovers the Problems (challenges) with Parcels and Sites.

Until one gets 'malformed data' in ones corridor sections.

Until one Discovers that Parcels and Alignments are NOT truly dynamic.

Until one works with C3D and discovers that despite all of that power some simple, innocuous task are near impossible to accomplish.  Yeah C3D does add some value, however autodesk STILL shipped the Land Desktop Companion this year didn't they?  Even they know that C3D is failing their customers yet they fail to address those issues.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 01:29:24 PM »
. . . Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is ti enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.
This is exactly my central point.  Civil 3D has value to ME as the designer, but little or no benefit to the bean counters.  I am now spoiled by Civil 3D and would not truly be content working with any other product that did not offer the dynamic updating and labeling features Civil 3D offers.  After 30 some years in this business I am weary with the tedium of the  submittal process followed by the inevitable return for comments demanding a complete rework that must be returned in 3 days only to be repeated multiple times often with demands that the previously rejected solutions be adopted.  Civil 3D at least makes this process tolerable as long as the model remains fully associative.  I am both grumpy and lazy . . . doing the work once is OK, but beyond that I am no longer amused.  Despite this, I could retain some comfort level with the EaglePoint, but internal plotter issues eventually precluded the retention of r13 and we moved on to LDT 2005 and upgraded yearly from there.

So the bottom line is Civil 3D makes my professional life easier - in fact I would be in a completely different field now were I not able to use Civil 3D, but I see very little to compel an engineering firm that adopting Civil 3D would be in their best interest.  The only real arguments I can see in favor of upgrading would be the long rumored abandonment of Land Desktop and the threat of continuing format changes resulting interoperability issues.

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 02:50:53 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.


I'm thinking in terms of the "ideal" setup where employees actually know what they are doing...   :?  Of course if training staff is too difficult (due to the software not being intuitive) that could be a huge issue...

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 02:57:31 PM »
. . . Why would you choose Civil 3D?  Would adding the items that you want to see add that value? (Obviously it would add value, but could you quantify it?)

Ultimately I understand what you are saying... I'm really asking, does Civil 3D (or any software) add value above what you could do in a "non-BIM" product?  Is ti enough value to offset the costs of adoption and realize a positive bottom-line? It really might not, I'm trying to get a grasp on the value statement.
This is exactly my central point.  Civil 3D has value to ME as the designer, but little or no benefit to the bean counters. 

Ahhh... so it has value, just not ENOUGH value.... that I can likely understand.   By the way, in an early post someone mentioned "file format" change and I would assume that was referring to C3D objects, but AutoCAD 2010 will have a format change (that I do know about) and will once again require a "saveas..." to save it to previous versions. In that regard, we will see that change across the AutoCAD based products...

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 02:59:09 PM »
On the surface, it would appear that C3D, does add value.

Until one attempts to use it with no training.


I'm thinking in terms of the "ideal" setup where employees actually know what they are doing...   :?  Of course if training staff is too difficult (due to the software not being intuitive) that could be a huge issue...

C3D and the word intuitive do not belong in the same paragraph.
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Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 03:02:18 PM »
Hi Brian!

Interesting questions you pose there.  Also great to see another augi member swimming in The Swamp. It would appear that the member disaffection is occurring as I predicted.

By the way, I don't spend much time on AUGI anymore either... at least not posting.  I'm becoming more passionate about using the correct products and the processes (implementation and financial impact of these decisions) than the actual "how-to" picks and clicks. I'm an expert in those too (AutoCAD and Revit) but its not my topic of passion like it once was...

Dilbert

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 03:05:28 PM »
C3D and the word intuitive do not belong in the same paragraph.

Yep, that's pretty much my thought process too...  that just means that it's prime to get kicked off the edge should a more intuitive solution come along with similar benefits.  Good comment.  :-)

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2008, 03:06:16 PM »

By the way, I don't spend much time on AUGI anymore either... and Revit) but its not my topic of passion like it once was...

You know I get that response from a lot of people. They have effectively become irrelevant to a large group of users. Otherwise I can't explain their persistent marketing of augi events and activities here at The Swamp.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2008, 03:07:10 PM »
. . . C3D and the word intuitive do not belong in the same paragraph.
How on earth were you guys able to use the words "Civil 3D" and "intuitive" WW.i  th   %%#out yyyourrrr KeYB...oar$D going i  nto mELt...dOwnnn ?

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 03:25:22 PM »
. . . Ahhh... so it has value, just not ENOUGH value.... that I can likely understand.   By the way, in an early post someone mentioned "file format" change and I would assume that was referring to C3D objects, but AutoCAD 2010 will have a format change (that I do know about) and will once again require a "saveas..." to save it to previous versions. In that regard, we will see that change across the AutoCAD based products...
I was convinced they would pull a surprise format change with 2009.  Without that extra kick, I don't see a whole lot of benefit in changing to 2009.  If this release had proven to be as flawed initially as its predecessors, I doubt anyone would have upgraded.  The jury is still out, but from what I could tell 2009 was much more ready to ship . . . provided one has the patience to wait out the sluggish program response with certain operations.  This alone would have likely doomed 2009 acceptance at my old firm.
Interoperability with anything other than the same release of Civil 3D has never worked in the past (although there has been some improvement) and I would only be pleasantly surprised if this ever changes.  I have abandoned all thought of saving my drawings down into anything other than primitive objects.  This was mostly a non issue for us as we only very rarely traded drawings with other companies.  Even bringing projects forward from 2007 to 2008 proved problematic.  I have encountered no similar issues moving forward to 2009 . . . but . . . the trust factor just isn't there with Civil 3D.  I am more likely to EXPECT problems with it.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2008, 03:25:50 PM »
Typed them words in two DIFFERENT applications and then PASTED them together<quickly> and hit send.


Brian, If you or Autodesk really wanted to know the good and the bad of C3D they would sit in on a few weeks of classes and take notes. And then they would know what should be fixed.  They must accept that there are problems in order to fix them. STOP with a new interface every other year to keep people confused, and fix the items that they just keep adding to the Technical Documents every year. Give the users what they asked for, not the 'features' they can design. Functions that Function, a STABLE platform and a consistent interface.

And I mean CONSISTENT, not the consistent that autodesk uses to describe the C3D interface, that my friends is NOT the definition of consistent.

Let's see, some sub assemblies CAN be left or right, and some can be + or -, yeah that's consistent!


Let's see some dialog boxes give a user a Drop Down, and others yield and ellipses, while others still present a pop-up box with a drop down in it.....Yeah THAT is consistent NOT


Or some objects ARE dynamic and others (All things Pipes) are NOT.....CONSISTENT   NOT

Or when user switches the Rotation of a Label coponent, it alters the X,Y axis in Label Style Composer as IF the user had defined a UCS, LAME!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 06:12:16 PM by mjfarrell »
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scout

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2008, 05:22:24 PM »

The grand results – from the project manager’s view, this software:
A.   Is expensive to buy
B.   Requires a massive shift in workflow to be efficient
C.   Mandates initial and ongoing training for production staff
D.   Changes skin every year and takes at least 3 months before hitting the floor
E.   Is impossible to collaborate with any software other than the identical Civil 3D
F.   STILL needs to be checked and double checked for errors
G.   Cannot produce on its own a complete document set meeting the required formats


Well put. Thank you for writing such a well crafted synopsis.

Dana

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 06:10:13 PM »
Well put. Thank you for writing such a well crafted synopsis.

Dana
Thank YOU Dana, I have the highest respect for you and your dedication to the industry acceptance of Civil 3D.  I was hoping that this would be seen as not simply a rant on what was wrong with Civil 3D but the very real struggles it faces to accomplish this and let those who have the ability to direct the needed changes to turn this wreck around.  I want desperately to be proven wrong eventually and be able to work out my remaining years piloting Civil 3D and its successors because otherwise, I will be looking at a complete career change at the age of 55.  Should James miss all of this, please relay to him that I am not a bitter user, only a passionate one who has watched the events leading to this thread unfold for several months and used any forum available to rail against their occurring.  In the end, I failed in heading off those that directly affected me, but there is still a decent chance to bring Civil 3D to its full potential.   

MSTG007

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 09:41:44 AM »
Dana, I have a question for you. How long have you been a the swamp? Just curious, The reason  I am asking, is it seems like there are alot of questions on C3D. And Alot of problems that people faced. Any ideas on some of the problems with what we post in here?
Do you think that Autodesk Employees or developers read what we post? Or do they just see the Bulk, or the same problem and attack that problem. I understand if its something specific, and hard, they can get to it when the get to it. This version or the next lol.
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scout

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 01:00:41 PM »
Dana, I have a question for you. How long have you been a the swamp? Just curious, The reason  I am asking, is it seems like there are alot of questions on C3D. And Alot of problems that people faced. Any ideas on some of the problems with what we post in here?
Do you think that Autodesk Employees or developers read what we post? Or do they just see the Bulk, or the same problem and attack that problem. I understand if its something specific, and hard, they can get to it when the get to it. This version or the next lol.

I depend heavily on my feedreader, and the swamp doesn't come through the way I'd like to read it in RSS, so I don't follow much unless there is a thread of interest. There are several people that I work with on a daily basis, both at Autodesk and otherwise, who do read the swamp and usually ping me when there is something that might be good reading. So yes, sometimes the chatter here does get picked up by people who might be able to get the issues in front of the right people. But not tons of them.

I would say though that IF people in QA, or development are going to read postings and customer information, they tend to read in the mainstream adesk discussion groups. They don't tend to monitor the swamp or AUGI just because there is more traffic on the main DG and it is indexed by google. It is also easier to follow threads from the web or OE or thunderbird type readers.

They also tend to be more responsive to the users on those groups because it is easy to begin to form a baseline understanding of their exposure to Civil 3D. After a few posts on the DG, it is easy to figure out who is a new user who is there for learning the product and gaining support, as well as who is an experienced user who is pushing the software into new territory. When one of the latter posts an issue, if the appropriate dev/qa person happens to catch it, there is often an exchange of data and a solution posted, or at least acknowledgement of the problem.

Just like all humans, some of the team is more accessible and more willing to help than others. Participating in the discussion groups is not part of their official job, and mostly they are in there on their own time. Should it be part of their job? No doubt. But right now it isn't.

The Wishes DG on both AUGI and the 'desk DG are truly monitored by the keeper of the wishlist. Respectful and constructive wishes that also provide some "meat" about why (such as a DOT spec for stormwater design, or similar) are of especially high interest.

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 01:13:29 PM »
WOW. its amazing what you learn once you ask the right person. Still what do you think is the best way to get your Questions Answered. I know the DG is there. There are so many. But as you mentioned above, the news reader or something like that, do they need to break out the forum or DG more? In to more detailed areas? I know they added the stormwater DG on Autodesk.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 01:17:38 PM »
WOW. its amazing what you learn once you ask the right QUESTION

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scout

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 12:39:06 AM »
WOW. its amazing what you learn once you ask the right person. Still what do you think is the best way to get your Questions Answered. I know the DG is there. There are so many. But as you mentioned above, the news reader or something like that, do they need to break out the forum or DG more? In to more detailed areas? I know they added the stormwater DG on Autodesk.

What kinds of questions? Questions about why/how the program doesn't work for you?

If it is wish related, put it on the Autodesk Civil 3D wishlist forum.

If you think you found a bug/defect or just wonder if something isn't working for others, just put it in the Autodesk Civil 3D forum. If you strike a chord, people will respond to you. This can help build up a bit of a body of knowledge on the specific issue (for example there are plenty of threads about the types of thing that Dino ruins into with Structure to Structure pipe runs) which in turn helps me or others like me build a case for change. It doesn't always work, and like I said, the attention from people that can help varies, but I don't believe time spent voicing concerns in a constructive way over there is a waste of time.

Like I said on the other thread, I have some deadlines over the next few weeks, so I won't be checking the Swamp much. If there is anything I can do to help more, drop me a line at dana dot probert at gmail dot com and I'll see if I can get you headed in the right direction.

MSTG007

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 08:47:16 AM »
Sounds good.  :laugh:
Civil3D 2020

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 10:21:10 AM »
I trust that what Scout is really saying is not "Don't waste your time at the swamp, only use the official channels"
Because that would lead to the question; If the Swamp is such a waste of time, why is she here?
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Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 10:58:27 AM »
I guess the discussion groups are a valid source for help as long as one is willing to put up with a major dose of arrogance unless and until one has apparently passed their muster and is deemed worthy of a response.  I tried a few questions over there and offered some answers as well.  I was respectful, posed well thought out questions and comments and received zero response except for a couple "yea, I see that too" comments.  From what I can tell, if you have a question that has no ready answer, the silence is deafening.  The discussion groups are fine if you have a question you know has been answered, but can't find or need to verify some procedure to solve something, but other than that I find them a waste of my time.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 11:13:35 AM »
I guess the discussion groups are a valid source for help as long as one is willing to put up with a major dose of arrogance unless and until one has apparently passed their muster and is deemed worthy of a response.  I tried a few questions over there and offered some answers as well.  I was respectful, posed well thought out questions and comments and received zero response except for a couple "yea, I see that too" comments.  From what I can tell, if you have a question that has no ready answer, the silence is deafening.  The discussion groups are fine if you have a question you know has been answered, but can't find or need to verify some procedure to solve something, but other than that I find them a waste of my time.

DinØ

I have other reasons to dislike the News Groups; just try to do a search and get a reasonable number of returns.
You get all manner of answers from all over the place. They may be indexed, however they are not searchable in a useful manner.
Further once you do find an article that might answer your question, one must weed through all the folks with "signature lines" that include every possible manner to contact them; because there tends to be a large number of Vendors representatives trolling over there hoping to find someone to market to.
Lately the trend is to see a user get 'ganged' up on by vendors from a certain company/website to the extent that I wonder, do they have any customers at all?
Combine all the snarky comments, with the feeding frenzy from vendors, and the draconian rules about what can be discusses, and how it may be discussed, and that's what you get. A bunch of folks trying to thump their chests, and or link you over to their marketing portal. (website, blog, whatever) If their purpose is to help the users they should POST the solution, leave off the encyclopedic signature lines, and the links to their website. The user came there for an answer, and the answer should be what is posted right there with no stinking links.

Trust me, if the users want to contact you, and want to do business with you; they will find you.
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Michael Farrell
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Jeff_M

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 12:16:53 PM »
Wow, I guess you see what you want to see. I spend a lot of time reading and replying to messages in the Autodesk C3D group, and, with the exception of very few posters, I sure don't get the same vibes as Michael & Stephen do.

And I sincerely hope that I am not one of those that gives them that opinion.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 12:23:42 PM »
No, you are not Jeff.  You are as helpful there or more than you are here . . . and you are also recognized as such on that site.  Try searching for postings by reed.stephens and observe the demeanor of the posts and the responses given and I think you will see exactly what I am talking about.

scout

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 01:32:02 PM »
I trust that what Scout is really saying is not "Don't waste your time at the swamp, only use the official channels"
Because that would lead to the question; If the Swamp is such a waste of time, why is she here?


Not at all. I think the Swamp is great. I think there needs to be independent places to discuss things. And the environment in here is typically very friendly for users, and far less intimidating.

What I mean was that if you wanted to be potentially read and/or responded to by someone at Autodesk, you would have a greater chance in the autodesk forums. Some 'deskers I know read the swamp, but none of them would ever post here.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 01:40:40 PM »
. . . Not at all. I think the Swamp is great. I think there needs to be independent places to discuss things. And the environment in here is typically very friendly for users, and far less intimidating.

in light of this statement

What I mean was that if you wanted to be potentially read and/or responded to by someone at Autodesk, you would have a greater chance in the autodesk forums. Some 'deskers I know read the swamp, but none of them would ever post here.
Why?

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 01:57:11 PM »
Actually not posting could be a good thing DinØ. That way they could concentrate on what was being said, and not suggesting there is no problem, or that existing kludges are acceptable solutions to user issues. Good thing the Swamp allows Guest posting!  They wouldn't even need to be 'real' members to view or post, and so no one would ever know who they were, should they choose to participate 'not as a part of the job', instead because of their passion for improving the product.


Perhaps not participating in the dialog officially might free them to find out what the 'lunatic fringe' of users are running into, and what parts of the product are openly detested. Get some good input on the product in an open forum, and then go back to the lab and do something about it. Leverage the passions of the passionate users to truly improve the product.  Instead of a site like augi that want to leverage the users as eyeballs to be marketed to. Let them sit in over here, where no one ever has to know who they are, and they have nothing to defend. Let them LISTEN to the customers, get mad even, when they say their pet function sucks; and then go fix the _ _ _ _.
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Mark

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 02:09:22 PM »
Anyone (as in they don't even have to sign up) can view this forum but not everyone can post in it.
TheSwamp.org  (serving the CAD community since 2003)

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 02:10:48 PM »
OK Dana, after that I concede that it would be a bit dicey but I think there may be a way to perhaps a one time or trial run at some moderated dialog between the Autodesk folk and some of the ordinary user base that aren't inclined to or are prevented from joining the beta program and for whatever reason, choose to stay out of the discussion groups.  Perhaps at some agreed upon time all parties could meet here, trade some questions and answers and have everybody learn something.  It would take a bit of prep work, but I think we could all be professional enough to get along for the time required and I would be more than willing to help moderate things so they didn't get out of hand.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 02:11:14 PM »
Thanks for that, Mark, I guess the guest posting is more limited than I thought.
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Michael Farrell
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mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 02:15:06 PM »
OK Dana, after that I concede that it would be a bit dicey but I think there may be a way to perhaps a one time or trial run at some moderated dialog between the Autodesk folk and some of the ordinary user base that aren't inclined to or are prevented from joining the beta program and for whatever reason, choose to stay out of the discussion groups.  Perhaps at some agreed upon time all parties could meet here, trade some questions and answers and have everybody learn something.  It would take a bit of prep work, but I think we could all be professional enough to get along for the time required and I would be more than willing to help moderate things so they didn't get out of hand.

DinØ,

If they want to talk about the product great, and I'll forget about (subscription). What did I say?

You know If they just come over and read a few select topics, like your pipes issues, and sinc's survey issues.
And go fix those items, and a couple of mine, then something truly great will have happened!

« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 02:18:17 PM by mjfarrell »
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John Mayo

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2008, 05:15:00 PM »
The NG's also get more silent as one's voice grows.

John Mayo

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2008, 05:19:44 PM »
http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5928030

I found the ansewer here pretty darn fast.

Thanks to all.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2008, 05:24:49 PM »
You are quite welcome.

Tell all your friends about The Swamp we welcome your questions!

(speaking entirely for myself of course)
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Michael Farrell
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scout

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2008, 09:45:55 PM »
Why?

I can't speak for other people, obviously, but I do know that the IP tracking and some other things that moderators can find out about users scares some folks away from even contributing even under assumed names.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2008, 10:42:21 PM »
Why?

I can't speak for other people, obviously, but I do know that the IP tracking and some other things that moderators can find out about users scares some folks away from even contributing even under assumed names.
Well OK, but I can assure you and any others lurking in the shadows out there, that while IP addresses ARE logged here and any member's activity can be tracked in that manner, that information goes nowhere except to the administrators and certain moderators who deal with approving membership status.  Beyond that, they are rarely even looked at unless someone is causing a problem on the boards.  Even then, the addresses are not shared with even the other moderators.
My previous invitation to dialog is still intact.  It looks possible on this end if there is any interest from Autodesk.  It sounds like an expletive NO from what you just shared, but I think it would be helpful to both Autodesk and the users if we could work things out.

mjfarrell

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Re: Civil 3D - The Exit Interview
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2008, 10:30:49 AM »
It seems so 1984 to think that the company would stop the workers from doing something to make the product the company makes better.
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Michael Farrell
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