TheSwamp
CAD Forums => CAD General => CAD Standards => Topic started by: CADaver on January 06, 2005, 08:19:29 AM
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To avoid hijacking a thread over HERE (http://theswamp.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3436) and to instigate yet another spirited debate:
1.) What is the thought process behind renaming files to match the revision?
and/or
2.) Creating an entire other file directory structure (including XREf's) for revisions?
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Renaming files destroys thier use as XREF's and duplicating the entire contract folder for each revision is a maintenance nightmare looking for a place to happen.
Why go to this effort, what purpose is served, what advantage is gained? Why not just revise the file and be done with it?
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my EDMS controls the revision system automatically ensuring I always access the latest revision but can access prior revisions when required.
Personally, I don't use X-ref's but it can be configured to automatically accommodate the X-reffing.
We're just about to update the EDMS to another system entirely but I belive the new system (Adept) also takes care of X-refs and links automatically.
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In my line of work, we frequently change the drawings, maintaining a set of drawing revisions including any xrefs works well for us because we deal with people, and people make mistakes and change their mind.
Take for example, one client who wanted their plans in a certain layout, after revising the plans 3 or 4 times, the final result was that the client wanted to revert back to an earlier incarnation. Keep in mind that when I speak of revisions, I am not talking about corrections, I am talking about things like .... move this wall, change that cabinet, move this wall, stretch this end, move these lights, add this widget, etc... when the client gets the drawings, they frequently, like 85% of the time at some point want to revert back to an earlier incarnation. It is for this reason alone that we maintain these files. It makes our job significantly easier. If we were not dealing with outside clients, it would basically be a WYSIWYG situation, so a revision history becomes unnecessary.
Imagine if one of your clients came back 6 months after you have completed a job and told you that he wanted to go all the way back to the second set of revisions..... If you have no revision history, you would have to aquire a set of the drawings of that revision and recreate that drawing, if the changes were significant enough, you would relish the thought of having a drawing to refer back to. Keep in mind, the client has already paid for this service and he may well expect that if you have already done the drawing previously, it is available. He will not want to hear that you have to recreate it and therefore incur additional expense.
So, I guess I have the best reason of all, it makes my job significantly easier, the boss is happier, the client is happier, and we get more work because of it.
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I agree totally that having a revision history is of prime importance. The question is "how best to handle the revision process" and that, like almost everything else in CAD is best determined by the user.
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We make seperate revision drawings as well. As of today I have never had to go back to a previous revision set for something. Guess I am lucky in that. Still a revision set is different then the original set and should be treated as such.
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Imagine if one of your clients came back 6 months after you have completed a job and told you that he wanted to go all the way back to the second set of revisions..... If you have no revision history, you would have to aquire a set of the drawings of that revision and recreate that drawing, if the changes were significant enough, you would relish the thought of having a drawing to refer back to.
Okay, how did you accomplish that prior to CAD? See I go back to manual drafting, and we NEVER recreated a drawing just to keep a revision history. We revised the ONE drawing when it needed to be changed, backing up to a previous revision required an eraser.
Keep in mind, the client has already paid for this service and he may well expect that if you have already done the drawing previously, it is available. He will not want to hear that you have to recreate it and therefore incur additional expense.
If he requires additional work, he needs to be ready to pay for it. Again how was this done in the manual drafting days, once the originals had been revised? The client paid for the changes or he didn't get 'em. And that's the way we still contract our projects.
The major advantage to CAD is accomplishing the desired task faster. If we unnecessarily burden the system with procedures that we never implemented for manual drafting, we've lost some of that advantage.
Rktect3j stated that he has never had to retrieve a previous revision, and in the last 30 years, I've only needed to do so 2 or 3 times (only once with CAD). So it seems maintaining previuos revisions may be spending a dollar on a safety net for a dime.
Now back in "those days", we kept a print of each revision in the project file, just for paper trail reasons. We accomplish the same today by using PDFs of each issue. This gives us the advantage of a plottable format that is not dependent upon XREF's, CTBs or anything else, and it's a considerable smaller file. We're not burdened by multiple files and extensive directory systems, nor XREF file path maintenance.
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Still a revision set is different then the original set and should be treated as such.
We never did so prior to CAD, why should it be necessary to do so now?
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I agree totally that having a revision history is of prime importance.
In DWG file format? Why?
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Imagine if one of your clients came back 6 months after you have completed a job and told you that he wanted to go all the way back to the second set of revisions.....
In my inductry the drawings would be the least of his problems. By then concrete is poured, steel is flying, and pipe is fabricated.
So, I guess I have the best reason of all, it makes my job significantly easier, the boss is happier, the client is happier, and we get more work because of it.
If that is truly the case then by all means carry on.
BUT... (always one of those eh?)
how often do you really NEED to go back, and how much time does it REALLY save, and is that savings REALLY enough to offset the cost of maintaining the history? And there is a cost involved in maintaining such a history, even if much of it is automated. There is still storage spcae required, time to find the right file(s), making sure the process is properly implemented, making sure something isn't missed, the time spent trying to find the desired file when it IS needed. Is the daily drain of a minute or two here and there REALLY offset by the retrieval of one drawing in a hundred? or a thousand?
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Still a revision set is different then the original set and should be treated as such.
We never did so prior to CAD, why should it be necessary to do so now?
I think the answer is because its easy and we can. Also, we have so much memory on our computers it would be wastful not to use it up. Disks are cheap as well and they can handle more information these days even without zipping them. This is just my take on it.
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I agree totally that having a revision history is of prime importance.
In DWG file format? Why?
oops... did I mention DWG format ?
I merely stated that having a revision history is of prime importance. the "history" can be in whatever format you prefer ~ it could be in dwg format, pdf, paper copy. It could even be in braille... whatever twangs yer strings
The exact format is immaterial, what IS important is that you have the history.
On average I carry out about 100+ revisions per year. Quite often I have clients request a new design which is remarkably similar to a previous revision ~ which is why I keep my revision history in dwg format.
The reason I originally started keeping a rev history in dwg format is that most of my sales contacts are based all over Europe & the Far East and language diffculties resulted many times in an incorrect design being requested, also many sales associates requested an amendment when what they actually required was a new design. Keeping a revision history in dwg format means I can respond quicker if that happens and it also means less work for me in the long term.
Additionally, in my particular discipline, 99.9999% of designs are Evolutionary and NOT Revolutionary, therefore the more building blocks I have at my disposal the quicker I can respond and the easier my work becomes.
When I receive a new design request, I can search my dbase of 10000+ dwgs in about 12 seconds against the new design criteria. If the closest match happens to be an old revision of some dwg, then that's the design I will use as the base for my new design.
why create work for myself ?
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Still a revision set is different then the original set and should be treated as such.
We never did so prior to CAD, why should it be necessary to do so now?
I think the answer is because its easy and we can.
I think that is probably the real reason, "We can, so we do". But, just because we can does not mean it is necessary, or desirable, or profitable to do. In fact I've seen evidence that it may NOT be desirable to do. A few weeks ago, a supplier sent us the wrong revision of a major piece of equipment. It was close and he missed his directory structure by just one click. It cost him about $5000 in back charges, and me a week of duration I really couldn't afford.
Also, we have so much memory on our computers it would be wastful not to use it up. Disks are cheap as well and they can handle more information these days even without zipping them.
Even if it was free, it still costs manhours to maintain, secure, search. Sure hardware and software are relatively cheap, but our average designer billing rate is near $45 an hour, that's 75 cents a minute spent making sure files are copied properly, directories are setup properly, finding the right file, etc.
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oops... did I mention DWG format ?
I merely stated that having a revision history is of prime importance. the "history" can be in whatever format you prefer ~ it could be in dwg format, pdf, paper copy. It could even be in braille... whatever twangs yer strings
The exact format is immaterial, what IS important is that you have the history.
Okay, we're on the same page with that then, I agree.
On average I carry out about 100+ revisions per year. Quite often I have clients request a new design which is remarkably similar to a previous revision ~ which is why I keep my revision history in dwg format.
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When I receive a new design request, I can search my dbase of 10000+ dwgs in about 12 seconds against the new design criteria. If the closest match happens to be an old revision of some dwg, then that's the design I will use as the base for my new design.
why create work for myself ?
Okay, you're using it as a design resource, not so much a retrieval of a previous release, I'll buy that. We do that a little differently by cataloging basic designs and using them as seeds for new design, sorta like big blocks.
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Get a document management system. It makes revision control a breeze and it automatically stores old revisions for you (in dwg format) so you can access them later. Which I end up doing quite often.
(http://www.theswamp.org/screens/tjr/meridian_revision_control.png)
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Get a document management system.
Have one, thank you.
It makes revision control a breeze and it automatically stores old revisions for you (in dwg format) so you can access them later.
Still loking for a profitable reason to do so.
Which I end up doing quite often.
Really? Why?
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Okay, how did you accomplish that prior to CAD? See I go back to manual drafting, and we NEVER recreated a drawing just to keep a revision history. We revised the ONE drawing when it needed to be changed, backing up to a previous revision required an eraser.
We maintained a reproducable copy set, it was a cardinal sin and you were subject to immediate dismissal for modifying a previous archive drawing that had already been issued for construction... instead, a copy was made of the sepias with the revision area blocked out, only the revision area was redrawn and the new copy was only modifyable in the area that was being changed. I have seen too many mistakes in the field because of changed drawings because someone changed the original. I will not put up with it and anyone who does it will not work for me.... but that point is moot since we haven't used hand drawn plans in over 15 years, probably longer....
If he requires additional work, he needs to be ready to pay for it. Again how was this done in the manual drafting days, once the originals had been revised? The client paid for the changes or he didn't get 'em. And that's the way we still contract our projects.
True, BUT, if you have the flexibility to offer that previous drawing at little cost to the client, then your client is happy and in turn you are happy.
The major advantage to CAD is accomplishing the desired task faster.
Exactly, and if by saving an archive drawing of a previous drawing I am able to reproduce for example the second revision of a drawing simply by plotting it, then CAD has served the ultimate purpose. If I have to recreate the drawing from scratch everytime then some usefulness of CAD is compromised.
If we unnecessarily burden the system with procedures that we never implemented for manual drafting, we've lost some of that advantage.
You have got to be kidding .... that has got to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard from you. It is precisely these new procedures that we have implemented that has gained us the advantage.
Rktect3j stated that he has never had to retrieve a previous revision, and in the last 30 years, I've only needed to do so 2 or 3 times (only once with CAD). So it seems maintaining previuos revisions may be spending a dollar on a safety net for a dime.
Perhaps, but consider my position, we archive all of our drawings individually per client on a CD-RW, these cost us on average $0.10 each and it is included in the cost of the clients work. We have never had a project even come close to filling up one.... never .... not in 10 years... So, I spend a dime to archive the drawings, and we can work right off of the CD.
Now back in "those days", we kept a print of each revision in the project file, just for paper trail reasons. We accomplish the same today by using PDFs of each issue. This gives us the advantage of a plottable format that is not dependent upon XREF's, CTBs or anything else, and it's a considerable smaller file. We're not burdened by multiple files and extensive directory systems, nor XREF file path maintenance.
If that works for you by all means continue, but it would be inefficient in my field... in fact, if I were to convert my drawings to PDF for archival purpose I would need MORE space. It just so happens that PDF's end up being larger than the original drawings, especially when you consider the number of pages in a PDF we would have to plot... one for each layout...so rather than 25 drawing files that total less than 1 meg, I would end up with 20 PDF 's each nearing 250k and that would make my PDF file over a meg....
We never did so prior to CAD, why should it be necessary to do so now?
We did... but either way, not necessary, but more efficient to do so....keep reading....
In DWG file format? Why?
Readily accessable, easily opened for further revision as a "NEW" revision
In my inductry the drawings would be the least of his problems. By then concrete is poured, steel is flying, and pipe is fabricated.
...and in my industry, it would not....construction would not begin until a complete set of plans are provided to the building department. Revisions after that point are not my problem, but if the client wants to revert to a previous design then so be it ... I get paid to do nothing, except plot out the original documents and seal them. If that means the client must tear down the structure and start over again, I have no problem with that...it isn't my money he is pissing away, it is his....
If that is truly the case then by all means carry on.
that IS the case, actually I have worked for other companies who did not archive previous revisions and we were frequently bit in the ass because someone revised something that wasn't supposed to be revised....
how often do you really NEED to go back,
3 times this week already
and how much time does it REALLY save, and is that savings REALLY enough to offset the cost of maintaining the history?
It saved me probably 12 hours work this week alone.
The cost to maintain the history is about a dime, exclusive of benefits of the maintenance also acting as a backup. And there is a cost involved in maintaining such a history, even if much of it is automated. There is still storage spcae required, time to find the right file(s), making sure the process is properly implemented, making sure something isn't missed, the time spent trying to find the desired file when it IS needed. Is the daily drain of a minute or two here and there REALLY offset by the retrieval of one drawing in a hundred? or a thousand?
If you had hair, I'd bet you would pull it all out in my industry after only a week or so....I know people, we work directly with the final customer, not a bean counter... Just to put it into perspective, I dealt directly with 38 clients last year, of those 38 clients, the average revision is 5 times. Out of those nearly 2/3 wanted at some point to revert back to a previous incarnation. If I can revert back to a previous version with the click of a button, then I am way ahead of the guy who has to redo work that he has already done in the past.
and to answer your question about why someone would regularly use previous versions of a file, ... it is because a majority of people cannot make up their mind what they want, and they change it several times before finally settling on a design.
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WOW...We have a new quote King now. :D
"Quote King Keith"
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It seems we're operating with two vastly different definitons of REVISON. We don't have revisions until it is issued to the building department. What you're describing are not revisions, but preliminary design options. We don't begin construction design until after that phase. During that phase we don't keep "previous revisions", we do separate option presentations. "You can get it like this, or like this, or like this".
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i have to post in this thread because i ran into this problem yesterday with this job. my boss told me to revise this drawing and save it as the same drawing but only to add rev_1_04-806.dwg which i strongly disagree with.
the way i was used to haneling revisions, whether it be revision 8 or 100. is i put it in a folder under the "dwg" directory name 04-8-6_rev_1 and so on. so that keeps the dwg directory the original drawing without revisions.
every revision cloud delta and title block revision note is on a layer called S-REV-1 and every other layer proceeds with a new number per revision. after i add revision 2 i use the previos revision set (revision 1 set) and do the process over with all the revisions in one drawing..simply freeze S-REV-1 and you will only see S-REV-2.
as for the dates of when drawings get plotted...i depend on the plot stamp and or the date on the title block.
i dont know whats the best way to keeep track of revisions. throughout my whole career as a drafter i probably had to deal with pulling old sets of drawings at least 50 times out of 4 years. and there has been times when i had to refer to the network administrator to retrieve old drawings that have been overwritten and requested to to be recovered.
i dont like the fact that some edit the drawing names per revisions it just screws up the xref process. why not xref the whole sheet and name the new sheet per revision?
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It seems we're operating with two vastly different definitons of REVISON. We don't have revisions until it is issued to the building department. What you're describing are not revisions, but preliminary design options. We don't begin construction design until after that phase. During that phase we don't keep "previous revisions", we do separate option presentations. "You can get it like this, or like this, or like this".
It's funny how you love to tell everyone they're wrong when you don't understand anything about their industry or the company they work for.
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CADaver wrote:
It seems we're operating with two vastly different definitons of REVISON. We don't have revisions until it is issued to the building department. What you're describing are not revisions, but preliminary design options. We don't begin construction design until after that phase. During that phase we don't keep "previous revisions", we do separate option presentations. "You can get it like this, or like this, or like this".
It's funny how you love to tell everyone they're wrong when you don't understand anything about their industry or the company they work for.
well let me clarify my point of view. its considered a revision when the engineer says...this is revision set. but when a client changes his mind, the engineer asks me to change this and that its just an update. but there are times when we need to revert back to what had been done and thats when i start to panic. because whats been done is done. and saving and exiting autocad is done. the only person you can depend on is your administrator.
could there be one single way to handle revisions? damn clients need to get there decisions straight.
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Well, let me put it like this ... if the file changes, it is a revised file, if it is a revised file then it is a revision, if it is a revision it gets a revision folder... it makes absolutely no difference if the design process is in the preliminary stages or after permitting had been done and construction has started. If I create a document and it is changed at ANY time, there is a 66% chance that client will revert back to some previous incarnation before construction is complete. If I don't want to spend all my time redrawing work already done before, then I MUST save all incarnations of the plans, regardless of whether final plans have been issued or not.
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It's funny how you love to tell everyone they're wrong when you don't understand anything about their industry or the company they work for.
Funny how you felt the need to jump in with a personal attack when you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.
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Well, let me put it like this ... if the file changes, it is a revised file, if it is a revised file then it is a revision, if it is a revision it gets a revision folder... it makes absolutely no difference if the design process is in the preliminary stages or after permitting had been done and construction has started.
??? What? Every time you decide to use a 3-0 window instead of a 2-8 you save a version?? That would be hundreds of versions for each drawing. I can understand why you don't wish to spend time redrawing, you're spending all your time saving previous versions.
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If one looks at the aspect of Industrial engineering, Radar Dishes, Medical Equipment, Switches and Controls, etc. you will find a great need for new documents for revisions. If a plant manager calls and says he has a problem with a machine - first question is What Revision? If he needs replacement parts, What revision? Functionality of the product depended on What Revision?
Little :O)
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If one looks at the aspect of Industrial engineering, Radar Dishes, Medical Equipment, Switches and Controls, etc. you will find a great need for new documents for revisions. If a plant manager calls and says he has a problem with a machine - first question is What Revision? If he needs replacement parts, What revision? Functionality of the product depended on What Revision?
Little :O)
The answer to each of those questions is "the latest" whatever that may be, unless you're using the same drawing over and over on different projects utilizing subsequent revisions. The few vendors, of which I'm aware, that used to do that, ceased doing so years ago after losing their shirts in court.
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It's funny how you love to tell everyone they're wrong when you don't understand anything about their industry or the company they work for.
I went back to check, just to make sure. No where in this thread have I said anyone was wrong at any time. I have asked some questions and made statements based on my own experience, but never have I said anyone was wrong. So, next time, check your facts before you shoot your mouth off.
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You're right...you never actually flat out said anyone was wrong. I apologize.
However you do continue to tell people how _YOU_ do it and the truth is it doesn't matter. You need to realize that different disciplines and different companies have different needs. Just because you can continue to modify a single file which has been submitted to a client without giving it a revision does not mean that other companies/disciplines can do the same. I don't understand why you can't accept that or why you would even care.
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Well, let me put it like this ... if the file changes, it is a revised file, if it is a revised file then it is a revision, if it is a revision it gets a revision folder... it makes absolutely no difference if the design process is in the preliminary stages or after permitting had been done and construction has started.
??? What? Every time you decide to use a 3-0 window instead of a 2-8 you save a version?? That would be hundreds of versions for each drawing. I can understand why you don't wish to spend time redrawing, you're spending all your time saving previous versions.
If it were only that simple .... In all of my years, I have only had a very few such changes, most are bastardized beyond recognition from revision to revision.... I would be elated to have something as simple as a window size change, but alas that is the exception rather than the rule...
But here is one for you ... what if the client is ready to build, and all he wants to do is revert to the previous revision and change a single window size....YOU would end up revising the drawing and likely spend hours doing so while I would have it done in a matter of seconds and move on to the next project.
The answer to each of those questions is "the latest" whatever that may be, unless you're using the same drawing over and over on different projects utilizing subsequent revisions. The few vendors, of which I'm aware, that used to do that, ceased doing so years ago after losing their shirts in court.
Oh my fellow, you would NEVER make it in the aerospace industry .... some of those controls have been though hundreds of revisions and there are hundreds of those controls in the marketplace....each revision only working with certain other revisions....if you requested the "latest" revision on a part, your part would never fit or might cause serious consequenses if it did fit.... now the NTSB and FAA regulations even require that certain projects be submitted to them in either DGN or DWG format, which incedently the state of Florida is now requiring on certain commercial and industrial projects .... do you think THEY delete the old ones? I think not ...
I might add that a DWG format file is infinitely more useful to the designing staff than a jpg, bitmap, tiff, or pdf of the same project.
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However you do continue to tell people how _YOU_ do it
Yes, and they continue to tell me how they do it, it's called a discussion, that's how they work.
and the truth is it doesn't matter.
Which "truth" is that, mine Keith's or Hendie's?
You need to realize that different disciplines and different companies have different needs.
Which I did, see my response to Hendie, that is if you're more interested in the truth than bashing me.
Just because you can continue to modify a single file which has been submitted to a client without giving it a revision
You've missed something there. We go through a priliminary design phase that is controlled by revision numbers just like everything else. Only based on preliminary design data. During that time the client gets his shots at different options (each a separate drawing file, number and all). But not EVERY change is a revision that's re-submitted to the client. If it were we'd be buried by paper on facilities that cover 130 acres containing several hundred pieces of equipment and several hundred miles of pipe. The majority of the changes are red-lined on a "Master Set", and only after the client is prepared to make a final descision (on some aspect of the design) are the changes made to the file.
Once that preliminary design process is final, it's final. At that point detailed design begins which incorporate final vedor supplied data and configurations. Literally thousands of changes will occur during that phase as final configurations are modified to fit together. Most of those changes will only be drawn to the attention of the client if it has a major effect on the contracted design concept, and then by letter, not revision. If the client has a problem with that change, we may hash it out on a "mark-up" print of the effected design concept drawing that would then be added to the design file for record. Once the detailed design drawngs are complete, the first issue is "Client Approval" (Rev. A), that's where he gets his last shot at it. Once approved, it's Issued for Construction (Rev. 0). Any modifications to that drawing after that will require subsequent revisions.
Just because you can continue to modify a single file which has been submitted to a client without giving it a revision does not mean that other companies/disciplines can do the same. I don't understand why you can't accept that or why you would even care.
If it works for you, fine (as I told Hendie). Why I care is with the current boom in PetroChem, Pulp-Paper, and power distribution, we're pulling in all kinds of people from other companies and other industries to fill the gaps. Some of these guys are showing up with the mindset that every revision must be maintained. On projects with 25,000-40,000 drawings, that rely heavily on xrefs, that are revised an average of 4 times each, the maintenance of multple revisions would be cost prohibitive. If you'll read my original post, I was curious as to the thought processes behind the descision so that I could more easily explain to these new guys why we don't. If you'll read it closer, you'l notice my primary concern was adding the revision number to the file name, which is a real killer for xrefs.
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But here is one for you ... what if the client is ready to build, and all he wants to do is revert to the previous revision and change a single window size....YOU would end up revising the drawing and likely spend hours doing so while I would have it done in a matter of seconds and move on to the next project.
Hours for a single window size?? I don't think so. If anyone here took more than a couple minutes to revise a window size, he wouldn't be here long.
Now let's extend your scenerio a step, the same client does the same thing, only instead of the last revisions window size, he want the revison before that's wondow size. What are your options? Cut-n-paste the old window sizes? Go ahead and make the changes to the current revision? Cut-n-paste the current design into the old window sizes? Sounds like keepin the earlier revision has done little good unless the entire last revision is scraped as well.
Oh my fellow, you would NEVER make it in the aerospace industry
Oh? I did quite well in aerospace, but that was years ago, and I was a cub in the lofting bay....
some of those controls have been though hundreds of revisions and there are hundreds of those controls in the marketplace....each revision only working with certain other revisions....if you requested the "latest" revision on a part, your part would never fit or might cause serious consequenses if it did fit....
Not latest part, but latest drawing revision. Granted it was a long time ago and things change, but while the parts go through significant changes over time, the "DRAWING" of a part for a particular installation would remain valid for that model. (ie The hydraulic cylinder for the rudder of the Boeing 727-100c was modified several times prior to the 727-200QC, but the latest revision of the drawings for the original 727-100c part are still valid for the original part.)
I might add that a DWG format file is infinitely more useful to the designing staff than a jpg, bitmap, tiff, or pdf of the same project.
Certainly, we keep the current file status in DWG format. Only the previous revisions are PDF'ed.
Oh, on a point you made in another post about PDF's requiing more space than drawings, not true at all on our end. Three dozen 250K pdf's won't come anywhere near the 30-40MB file size of the original model, which will have to follow the previous revisions as well if they are to maintain viability.
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When referring to the single window size change I was speaking of the sceanrio where a client wishes to back up to a previous revision, with the only changes to that previous revision being the size of the windows......
IF you have significantly changed that drawing with 1 or more changes and no longer have the drawing at the REV_2 level, you will have to redraw (undo your work) to the previous state.... while you are busy undoing and redoing, I will have long completed my task of changing a window size....
What you are continually failing to understand is that there is nothing sacred in an architectural drawing, they are subject to change at any time before, during and after construction. Maybe this will help you understand ....
Client requests modification to restroom layout ... we comply ... Later client requests mods to the kitchen, which is directly affected by the location and size of the restroom, we comply, on the next revision, the client realizes the kitchen will not work as they had originally thought ...(this is the most common reason for reverting back to previous revisions), so they want the bathroom back like it was in the 2nd previous revision ... I can merely open that drawing, make the minimal changes to the kitchen and it is completed, if I were relegated to use your method, I would have to redraw the kitchen and the bathroom, as opposed to one or the other. The time savings can be immense.
There seems to me, as cheap as media is today and as simple as it is to put the data on disk and archive in a fireproof room (yes we do that on a daily basis), to be no good reason for not doing it except for being a stick in the mud ... "we never did it that way before so we ain't gonna start now" attitude will cost you money when dealing with drawings that are small enough to fit an entire project on a floppy.
At my last company, we had a bean counter tell us that it was costing too much time and money to do a daily backup of our files (we had nearly 40 gigs of files at an average size of 300k each) The tape backup was too slow, the time spent could be better utilized etc... all of the good reasons why we shouldn't do it...UNTIL...one day the server crashed....and it crashed bad....we had two options....put the entire office staff on 12 hour days 7 days a week until we could recreate all of the lost drawings, OR pay a recovery company nearly $20k to recover the data, verify the data, and give us the recovered files. In the end, we spent just in overtime alone enough money to have paid a full time person to simply sit in the office everyday m-f and copy the files to CDs for an entire year. The recovered files took nearly 6 weeks to get back, we hired 4 more people and worked 7 days a week, 12 hour days trying to create what we needed just to get by on a daily basis, it took us nearly a year and half to recover from that one incident.
I count it as insurance ... a necessary evil if you will ... you can either pay now, or pay later, and you WILL pay at some point ... it can either be an easy pill to swallow now OR you can explain to your boss why the lack of a $0.10 CD caused you to spend $500 reinventing the wheel, or in our case, why the lack of a $9 tape caused us nearly $38k in unexpected charges over the course of a year.
In my business you either save the revisions or you end up redrawing them in the end ... the client could care less how we do it, but it saves me a heap of work on a daily basis.
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IF you have significantly changed that drawing with 1 or more changes and no longer have the drawing at the REV_2 level, you will have to redraw (undo your work) to the previous state.... while you are busy undoing and redoing, I will have long completed my task of changing a window size....
Fine you can back up to the kitchen mods of Rev 2, what do you do with the mods that occured during revs 3 & 4? Going back to Rev 2 only helps if everything done since, Revs 3 & 4, is voided as well. And I don't think you're counting the time it takes to save, maintain, and search, the saved revisions.
What you are continually failing to understand is that there is nothing sacred in an architectural drawing, they are subject to change at any time before, during and after construction.
Oh, I understand it quite well, I have a half a dozen architects working for me right now.
Client requests modification to restroom layout ... we comply ... Later client requests mods to the kitchen, which is directly affected by the location and size of the restroom, we comply, on the next revision, the client realizes the kitchen will not work as they had originally thought ...(this is the most common reason for reverting back to previous revisions), so they want the bathroom back like it was in the 2nd previous revision ... I can merely open that drawing, make the minimal changes to the kitchen and it is completed,
And what do you do with the changes that occured to the living area between the two kitchen changes?
if I were relegated to use your method, I would have to redraw the kitchen and the bathroom, as opposed to one or the other.
Did you REDRAW the entire kitchen to make the now undesired revision? Or did you just make the mods needed? You're exaggerating the "REDRAW" effort, a wall moves, you move it back, no biggie.
There seems to me, as cheap as media is today and as simple as it is to put the data on disk and archive in a fireproof room (yes we do that on a daily basis),
The cost of the media is nothing, but manhours are expensive, VERY expensive. Now if your time worth nothing, there is no cost involved in copying files and caryying them around, but billing rates around here are considerably more expensive than "nothing". Consider 200 designers handling an average of 4 drawings files a day spending just 20 seconds each saving and storing the files. That's over 4 manhours a day at an average billing rate of $40 or $40,000 a year.
At my last company, we had a bean counter tell us that it was costing too much time and money to do a daily backup of our files
....
or in our case, why the lack of a $9 tape caused us nearly $38k in unexpected charges over the course of a year.
A completly different topic that has nothing to do with saving previous revisions.
OR you can explain to your boss why the lack of a $0.10 CD caused you to spend $500 reinventing the wheel,
Is easier to explain than a $40,000 revision history maintenance cost.
In my business you either save the revisions or you end up redrawing them in the end ...
I still think you're exaggerating the "redraw" effort.
the client could care less how we do it, but it saves me a heap of work on a daily basis.
Then by all means carry on.
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I guess this thread now has become "The Dueling Quoters". :lol:
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I guess this thread now has become "The Dueling Quoters". :lol:
That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??
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Fine you can back up to the kitchen mods of Rev 2, what do you do with the mods that occured during revs 3 & 4? Going back to Rev 2 only helps if everything done since, Revs 3 & 4, is voided as well. And I don't think you're counting the time it takes to save, maintain, and search, the saved revisions.
You either cannot see my position or you do not want to see it, either way, my point is that we have many times thrown away 4 or even 5 complete revisions and started back with a previous state. This is the RULE when dealing with most people, not the exception, so when you get to that point you do what is needed to make your job easier, in the end the cost is a very small aspect of the problem.
And what do you do with the changes that occured to the living area between the two kitchen changes?
More often than not a client will key in on a specific area, I can cut and paste a revision from an earlier incarnation faster than I can redraw it. You can too if you are truthful to yourself. That IS why we have wblocks, so we don't have to redraw everything every time.
Did you REDRAW the entire kitchen to make the now undesired revision? Or did you just make the mods needed? You're exaggerating the "REDRAW" effort, a wall moves, you move it back, no biggie.
Now you are starting to sound like the CAD manager you are .... trust me ... nothing is that simple EVER .. if it were you could have anyone use AutoCAD but you can't. The most common misconception is that you just move a wall ... what about the plumbing? electrical? HVAC? Cabinet design? all of those things will need to be addressed...if not you will have serious consequences in the field.
The cost of the media is nothing, but manhours are expensive, VERY expensive. Now if your time worth nothing, there is no cost involved in copying files and caryying them around, but billing rates around here are considerably more expensive than "nothing". Consider 200 designers handling an average of 4 drawings files a day spending just 20 seconds each saving and storing the files. That's over 4 manhours a day at an average billing rate of $40 or $40,000 a year.
So you don't backup your drawings? If you do, who does it ... do your designers not SAVE their drawing once they do it? It takes absolutely no more time to save a file as FP1_R2.dwg than it does as FP1_R1.dwg so that argument is invalid you too MUST save your drawings.... only in my field our drawings will save faster than I can press the key to save it. The time to save is more like 0.003 seconds not 20 seconds ... and you too archive your drawings, as do we....you save yours as PDF I save mine as DWG.... only difference is that if in 6 months I need to get something from a previous version, rather than redraw it, I can cut and paste, saving me untold manhours, while you would have to redraw it.
A completly different topic that has nothing to do with saving previous revisions.
Perhaps, but the fact is that our method works as a backup means as well. We operate off of CD-RW media, each client has one CD, it is checked in and out of the fire room at the beginning and end of each day, now perhaps that IS overkill seeing how the most common loss of data is user error and hardware malfunction, but here in the south, particularly where our office is located, fire is a real threat, particularly during the summer months.
Is easier to explain than a $40,000 revision history maintenance cost.
I don't have 200 users, I have 6 users, if we spend 20 seconds saving our drawings (which you do too) an average of 4 per day, that equates to about 40 minutes a week or about 35 hours a year .... to discount your $40 billing rate (that is NOT what you paid) lets say $12.00 per hour for a cad jockey .... that is $420 per year ... this week alone previous revisions have saved me 12 man-hours so now we only have an annual expense of $276 ..... I suspect the next couple of weeks I'll likely be in the positive for the year, thereby costing us money NOT to save the previous versions.
You have admitted that you indeed also mantain drawing revisions in PDF format... even if it is for space constraints, you too are doing the exact same thing I am, except your files say .pdf on the end and mine say .dwg on the end ... and my dwg files are seldomly larger than 250k ... If I were to implement your procedures here, it would mean more storage space would be required, more maintenance would be required (I'd have to get a pdf writer for each user, or burden one user with the task of doing all of the pdf plotting)
I think your argument has been proven to be incorrect.
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That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??
Is that what they're calling these days... "comparing notes".
Thanks for the clarification.
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You either cannot see my position or you do not want to see it,
Oh, I see it, I just disagree with it.
my point is that we have many times thrown away 4 or even 5 complete revisions and started back with a previous state.
And that is often the case? Nothing in the intermediate versions is required?
This is the RULE when dealing with most people,
I think that's the problem. It may be the case with the few folks you deal with, but it is NOT the for "most" by far. I've worked with clients on everything from carports to 90 story commercial buildings and I've NEVER had a client trash 4 or 5 complete revisions. "MOST" are considerably more frugal than that, at least the ones I've dealt with over the last 30 years are. If I had a client that trashed 4 or 5 complete revisions, he'd better have a check-writting arm that's in shape.
More often than not a client will key in on a specific area, I can cut and paste a revision from an earlier incarnation faster than I can redraw it. You can too if you are truthful to yourself. That IS why we have wblocks, so we don't have to redraw everything every time.
Quite truthful, and again two different topics, let's try to confine it to one at a time.
Now you are starting to sound like the CAD manager you are .... trust me ... nothing is that simple EVER ..
Taking the cue from you and your "just cut-n-paste" scenerio. You're quite right it is never that simple, neither is the "cut-n-paste".
Oh, BTW, you're right I am a Cad Manager, have been for over a dozen years. But I also log an average of 50 hrs a week as a production designer, and have been for over 30 years (20 with ACAD). So I am very familiar with what it takes to push a design out the door.
if it were you could have anyone use AutoCAD but you can't.
Anyone CAN use the tool to the limits of his/her training.
The most common misconception is that you just move a wall ... what about the plumbing? electrical? HVAC? Cabinet design? all of those things will need to be addressed...if not you will have serious consequences in the field.
Same goes for your cut-n-paste method. You just can't paste the kitchen from Rev 2 into the floor plan for Rev 5 if Revs 3 and 4 have changed the adjacent spaces.
So you don't backup your drawings?
Again a different topic, one at a time, please.
do your designers not SAVE their drawing once they do it? It takes absolutely no more time to save a file as FP1_R2.dwg than it does as FP1_R1.dwg so that argument is invalid you too MUST save your drawings....
Changing file names is not an option if you're trying to be efficient using XREF's. Now if you wish we can discuss the advantages/disadvantages of their use, but that is another topic as well. So for us to maintain the previous revision, we'd need to save the drawing, and ALL it's associated XREF's as well to a different location. I was being generous when I said 20 seconds. The little area paving drawing I'm working right now has 17 XREF's. Getting all those to a separate directory properly named would take a little longer than 20 sec.
difference is that if in 6 months I need to get something from a previous version, rather than redraw it, I can cut and paste, saving me untold manhours, while you would have to redraw it.
you're exaggerating again.
We operate off of CD-RW media, each client has one CD,
One CD would barely hold one of our files. That's not true, it'd hold about a dozen and a half, so for the project I'm on now, I'd need... ummmm... lesee... carry the two... ummm... 2,000 CDs... ummm... no thank you.
(BTW, on another topic, have you been paying attention to the flack about poor disk longevity with CD-RW? You may wish to check it out.)
it is checked in and out of the fire room at the beginning and end of each day, now perhaps that IS overkill seeing how the most common loss of data is user error and hardware malfunction, but here in the south, particularly where our office is located, fire is a real threat, particularly during the summer months.
We're fully networked, and utilize mrrored servers in remote locations and daily tape back-ups of both.
I don't have 200 users, I have 6 users, if we spend 20 seconds saving our drawings (which you do too) an average of 4 per day, that equates to about 40 minutes a week or about 35 hours a year .... to discount your $40 billing rate (that is NOT what you paid)
I wouldn't do this for only $40 an hour, but that's me. The billing rate is what the client is paying us for each hour burned, regardless of what we pay the guy that burns it.
lets say $12.00 per hour for a cad jockey ....
Jenkies Scooby, we pay entry-level more than that. Heck, my secretary makes more than that (but then she has to keep ME in line).
You have admitted that you indeed also mantain drawing revisions in PDF format... even if it is for space constraints, you too are doing the exact same thing I am, except your files say .pdf on the end and mine say .dwg on the end ...
Hardly, the PDF are created during the batch plot sequence and added to the contract ZIP file automatically. It requires no user interface. I could batch some sort of eTransmit function to collect all the necessary support files for each drawing at each revision, but that would add serious time to the process.
and my dwg files are seldomly larger than 250k ...
It's been years since we've seen a file size that small, not since r12 anyway.
(I'd have to get a pdf writer for each user, or burden one user with the task of doing all of the pdf plotting)
Nope, see above.
I think your argument has been proven to be incorrect.
Hardly, it's only proven to be "not what you desire"
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That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??
Is that what they're calling these days... "comparing notes".
Thanks for the clarification.
umm... sure, what would you call it? At first glance it may seem unseemly, but Keith and I just approach the software from two completely different design worlds.
We could still share a coffee at the corner diner without drawing blood... I think... maybe...
ummm...
yo Keith, you're not at the corner diner are you??
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Just so you know ... I am not telling you that your way is wrong or should be changed, only that our method has proven to provide the best balance between effort and cost.
To address your latest comments ...
Yes, it is not uncommon to completely do away with 2 or 3 revisions and go back to a previous revision without any changes ... sometimes I think the client just wants to see what it would look like 3 or 4 different ways and then they choose the one that best suits them.
You should keep in mind that we deal with people who have the expectation that we will do as they ask...yes they pay ... and I might add DEARLY ... In an area where the average cost of a home is around $70 sf, ours lowest cost project runs in the neighborhood or $200 sf. I had one almost $800 sf.... We won't even look at starting a set of preliminary drawings for a client without a $10k deposit, they pay and they demand.. so we charge ... this IS our clientele, yes I have worked in other industries where you tell the client what they can have and they take it ... but in this company, it is either cater to the client or the client finds someone who will .... that is why we keep all previous revisions...does that make me a bad person for charging a client a $1000 for a revision set that all I have to so is plot and seal? I don't think so ... I think it makes me a shrewd business person... in fact just a little while ago I had a salesman come in and tell me to pull the third revision of a different client, change the name on the title block, plot them out and seal them.... I have to do absolutely nothing EXCEPT change the name, plot them, and stamp them. Now how more efficient can that be....also just so you know our clients and sales staff DO have a paper copy (sometimes PDF) of all revisions and they expect that if you HAD it you still do...and they frequently share them with other clients...
FYI.. $12 per hour is actually a pretty decent wage here ... typically beginning salary in this area for a cad jockey is $10 ... top wages are near $18 ... so there is a huge disparity in the cost aspect between your situation and mine.
Here again ... we have a limited number of xrefs, maybe 3 per set of plans, those do not get renamed, in fact only the parent folder gets renamed ... all subfolders remain the same.... there is no maintenance and no tracking required.... you pop in the CD, open the folder and see the revision history immediately, simply pick which one you want. If you want a new one, create the next revision folder, drop your files there and continue on.
As you stated our files are VERY small typically and in 2004+ they are even smaller ....
I personally don't care if the CD-RW media is no good after a year or two, by then the project is complete and the client won't need it anymore ... If it maintains integrity and I can use it, fine ... I will, otherwise I'll just take my chances....
Oh... and I am not at the corner diner today ... I brought my lunch ... How about another time ...
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sometimes I think the client just wants to see what it would look like 3 or 4 different ways and then they choose the one that best suits them.
We handle that in the preliminary phase, and yes wee keep all those options active until the final set is agreed upon and construction documents are issued. Because we handle procurement, construction and installation as well, we burn a lot of time getting the design solidified prior to the construction issue. Once the construction documents are released, the very cheapest part of any revision would be the redraw effort. Once $9000 worth of stainless is cut to fit a $4500 commercial range, it's real expensive to "uncut".
You should keep in mind that we deal with people who have the expectation that we will do as they ask...yes they pay ... and I might add DEARLY ...
ours as well, I just think our project scale is different.
In an area where the average cost of a home is around $70 sf, ours lowest cost project runs in the neighborhood or $200 sf. I had one almost $800 sf.... We won't even look at starting a set of preliminary drawings for a client without a $10k deposit, they pay and they demand.. so we charge ... this IS our clientele, yes I have worked in other industries where you tell the client what they can have and they take it ... but in this company, it is either cater to the client or the client finds someone who will ....
And therein lies the major difference. Our clients don't come to us because we'll do it their way, but because we can do it at all. Most of our stuff is schedule driven, it gets done by May 1 (or whatever) or it doesn't get done. Like the old saying, you get things done fast, cheap, or accurate (read your way), but only two at a time.
that is why we keep all previous revisions...does that make me a bad person for charging a client a $1000 for a revision set that all I have to so is plot and seal?
Hope not, we have several Off-The-Shelf designs we charge full price for. 1MW, 5MW, 10MW, 20MW and 50MW power generation facilities, for which all we need is acceptable soil conditions.
FYI.. $12 per hour is actually a pretty decent wage here ... typically beginning salary in this area for a cad jockey is $10 ... top wages are near $18 ... so there is a huge disparity in the cost aspect between your situation and mine.
Sheesh, I'll say. You don't wanna know what I just hired a contract mechanical designer for.
I personally don't care if the CD-RW media is no good after a year or two, by then the project is complete and the client won't need it anymore ... If it maintains integrity and I can use it, fine ... I will, otherwise I'll just take my chances....
Some recent stuff was showing file degradation after only 60 days. Had something to do with the adhesive on labels. So be careful.
Oh... and I am not at the corner diner today ... I brought my lunch ... How about another time ...
Sure, I'll be in Orlando next weekend for a wedding.
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Well, unfortunately I'll be in Jacksonville next weekend.... Maybe one day ...
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"Missed it by thaat much"
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That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??
Is that what they're calling these days... "comparing notes".
Thanks for the clarification.
umm... sure, what would you call it? At first glance it may seem unseemly, but Keith and I just approach the software from two completely different design worlds.
We could still share a coffee at the corner diner without drawing blood... I think... maybe...
ummm...
yo Keith, you're not at the corner diner are you??
That is good to know that coffee is what keeps you to together. :lol:
Seriously though, it's good to see a debate not turn ugly, just serious.
Thanks guys,
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That is good to know that coffee is what keeps you to together. :lol:
Seriously though, it's good to see a debate not turn ugly, just serious.
Thanks guys,
You're welcome.
BTW, I have to go the coffee route, I used up all my alcohol privileges and I don't wanna have to go back to those meetings.
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If it works for you, fine (as I told Hendie). Why I care is with the current boom in PetroChem, Pulp-Paper, and power distribution, we're pulling in all kinds of people from other companies and other industries to fill the gaps. Some of these guys are showing up with the mindset that every revision must be maintained. On projects with 25,000-40,000 drawings, that rely heavily on xrefs, that are revised an average of 4 times each, the maintenance of multple revisions would be cost prohibitive. If you'll read my original post, I was curious as to the thought processes behind the descision so that I could more easily explain to these new guys why we don't. If you'll read it closer, you'l notice my primary concern was adding the revision number to the file name, which is a real killer for xrefs.
If you read my original post you'll see I said get a document management system. You claim you have one but it must not be too good considering any document management system worth anything will handle the xref paths for you. I could take a drawing that's xrefed into 500 other drawings, rename it to ChiliCheeseFries.dwg and when I open a drawing that it was xrefed into it would still resolve.
The key to problem solving is not to teach not to do it but to make it impossible for the problem to happen. I've followed that philosophy for some time now and it's worked quite well for me.
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If you read my original post you'll see I said get a document management system. You claim you have one but it must not be too good considering any document management system worth anything will handle the xref paths for you. I could take a drawing that's xrefed into 500 other drawings, rename it to ChiliCheeseFries.dwg and when I open a drawing that it was xrefed into it would still resolve.
Therein lies the problem. If I'm saving the previous revision, I have to freeze the xref'd files at that point in time as well. That would require a rename of the XREF as well as keeping th old name intact or, as I stated previously, a batch eTransmit function. If you DMS, does either of these, pray-tell, please provide it's name.
Even if it does, that only solves my problem locally, and does nothing for files already transmitted to clients or suppliers.
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I believe it does what you're talking about. No matter what we do to the files short of deleting them the XREF's always resolve. As far as transmiting them to a client it will fix all XREFs when you remove them from the vault.
http://www.cyco.com/ammeridian/
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Here is a screenshot showing that Meridian handles the XREFS
http://www.theswamp.org/screens/tjr/xref-manager.png
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We are currently using an older version of Meridian, and as far as I can tell, it does neither without a major interface from the manager. We cannot, at least we haven't found a way yet, to have it manage maintaining the previous revision of both the files and the associated xrefs. It will work on saving the previous revisions, but we haven't found a way of breaking it's link to the active xrefs and pathing to the previous revs xrefs without a major interface.
Granted I didn't spend much (read any) effort in the exercise, in that I see no real benefit, but our IT guys kicked it around quite a bit.