Topic: Drawing on top

[Artisan]

Just wanted to get some thoughts on drawing on top of other drawings in a file. Not using Xref's here, just using different layers and drawing on top of another drawing. In our case, we do residential, so my boss wants me to draw the second floor on top of the first and so on. Then we will set layer states and adjust our viewports to show what we need on each sheet. We are not really interested in using xrefs, so the only other option would be to lay the plans out in the same file, except they would be side by side, not on top of each other. Any thoughts or suggestions on this? Thanks

[Bob Garner]

I frequently do this when making study plans to determine where beams and framing has to go to support the stuff above.  We always go to seperate drawings in the end, though.  What do you do about line weights, colors, etc.?  By layer?  It seems you would need sublayers to identify all these things for each layer that is a separate floor plan.

Bob

[Trev]

hmmm.....
I would certainly take the xref route for what your doing. It's easier to manage.

As Bob mentioned your layering method. If you are using 'Bylayer' etc you will have to have tonnes of layers.

ie:Lev1_line_25_cont
Lev2_line_25_cont
etc etc.

also you may like to define a layer filter in your layer manager to show only Level1 layers and same for the rest of the building levels.

You will have to ensure the drawings are very well disciplined in their layering and that who ever is working on the drawings sticks to it. Otherwise you could end up in a layering nightmare.

Personally I wouldn't do it, I would use xref's. Basically thats what xrefs are for.

Another thing to think of, Do you use any 3rd party software or any programming extra's to help create your drawings? If so do they setup layers or draw objects directly to a specific layer name.
If you do have something like that then your nightmare will begin, as each time you draw an object eg: a door,  it places it onto layer 'door' then you will have to change the layer of that object. Every time.
You would be bound to forget to do that at times which will only mix your 2 floors onto the same layer.
hmmm messy.

[Artisan]

Thanks guys. Trev, I understand your point on this topic very much. We are using ADT 3.3, which of course creates doors, wall, windows, etc... on its own layering system. We had thought about redoing all of that and overriding those layering aspects. It will be a lot of up-front work to get that ready in my opinion. I am for drawing all of the levels on one file and then use my layout tabs to separate them. One could still use different layers I suppose, but it wouldn't be as cluttered as stacking them on top of things. The Xref may or may not be an option. I am the most experienced Cad user here, which isn't saying a lot. I have used Xref's in the past, but I have forgotten all of that stuff and would need a review. As for the other Cad person, well she's never used them and I would place her Cad level at a beginners level. She struggles with very basic commands still. My boss has been using AutoCad since Feburary and that's it. I and my other Cad partner will be the only ones using this setup. My boss is not really suppose to be drawing according to our big boss. I would like to set this thing up to suit my use with some things suiting my partner. I was just trying to get some thoughts on the stacking effect. Thanks

[CAB]

I use the layering technique. I use Arch-T which is designed to do just that
and that is how I got started. See this drawing Sample DWG
If you take a look at this you will need to use the "Express Tools layer manager"
not the newer ACAD layer manager. I use ACAD 2000 which doesn't have the newer
layer manager.
In model space you will see two houses. I usually don't put two on a drawing but
this was a special case. Zooming in on one you will see all layers on.
Arch-T has a layer manager too but only filters on Prefix like F1_ for
Floor 1. You can choose any prefix you want but the ET Layer manager works on the
individual layers. This way you can have one F2_ on with the F1_.
Well cycle through the layer groups set up in ET layer manager.
Arch-T also puts the layers on there own Z. So the second floor for example could
be drawn with z=11'-6". This is good and bad. If you draw geometry while in F1_
mode while F2_ layers are on and you snap to an F2_ object that point will be
at 11-6 and the other end of the line will be at zero. But you get used to avoiding
or fixing that. Gotta go. There are several threads on this topic.

[daron]

The problem I have with not using xref's, Art, is that if you draw your second level at ground level, when you move it up, your doors and windows stay at their ground level value. It messes with things bad. ADT is really good at working with schedule through xrefs, so this should not be a problem. My suggestion would be to push HARD for xref usage. Plus, it keeps track of its own layer standards that way.

[CAB]

That would probably be the way to go with ADT. How do you do a quick
edit of the xref? Say you are working on the second floor & you need to
make a change in the first floor xref without closing the current drawing?

Is that how ADT is set up to work? One floor one DWG file.

Don't most people do a side by side when they draw a two floor house?
When I use that method I make a temp block from one floor & insert it
on top of the other floor to check how it lines up.

[ronjonp]

Say you are working on the second floor & you need to
make a change in the first floor xref without closing the current drawing?

CAB,

Have you ever tried refedit or you can just double click on an xref to do this? It opens the reference in the current drawing to be changed, make your changes save and joila!

Ron

[CAB]

Hay the refedit works. I use ACAD 2000 and the double click doesn't.
I only use xref's for title blocks but I'll try to use them more often.

Thanks Ron

[pmvliet]

I personally don't recommend running and entire job in one file.
Xref's make it very easy and it eliminates some of the user error where something gets erased accidently or lines get stretch when they are not suppose to. Xref's are no more complex then mylars from the old board days or onion skins sketches for today. For one man shops like Cab, it works well because everything is in on file and he doesn't have to hassle with 5 different files for 1 job.

The problem comes when you do get a larger job and you need to spread out the work to different drafters or companies/offices. You have to change your standard practice and this in itself can cause errors.

if you keep everything in one level, you will have to decide how you want to do things. If you want your plans stacked, you have to have the same layers for every stack. ie: floor1, floor2 etc. If you put the plans side by side, then you can get away with a lot less layers. I would do the stack just because the nature of my work is more complex and requires coordination.

If you do use reference files, you can open more then one file at once to edit. If you are running less them 2004, save, go into your sheet file and do a xref reload. in 2004 and above, when your reference file is modified/saved, it will prompt the user that a certain reference file has been modified, "would you like to reload it?" I use to have a small lisp that would allow you to select a reference file and it will reload it.

anyway, that was way too long.

pieter

[dubb]

umm...id like to say that i work with mulitiple floors. i xref each floor from the architect and then draw my structural on top of a that as a background. in this case all my live layers are on, and all the layers in the xref are turned into one layer, which is a layer that prints out lightly. the actual xrefed is not change...its just referenced and all i have to do is open up the actual background to edit. its simple and plus whenever i receive architects files i dont modify them because i get into legal issues and its not my drawing...im just referencing it. so, using an xref can save your butt because it doesnt require you to change the background file. as for you drafter, maybe she can join this forum if shes likes...im sure there are people who would like to answer her questions....maybe even people who dont know as much as the (big doggs) could answer them.

[Trev]

Artisan
since you need an xref refresher, try a simple test drawing. Xref's are very simple to use, plus you have full control over any layer etc.

In short for a particular job you may work on select a common datum point to use for the whole job. 0,0,0 is the easiest and straight forward to use. (easy to remember) Draw up a standard grid line drawing. save it. Now start a new drawing. eg: Level 1.  use the xref command and attach or overlay (overlay is better, but depends on required use) select the grid line drawing you just created, inserted at co-ordinate 0,0,0
Simple as that. Now you can begin drawing up your level 1 floor plan using the gridline drawing as the basis.
Now you can then do the same for level 2. xref the Level 1 drawing into newly created Level 2. etc. etc.

xref's can be unloaded if you don't need to see them in your drawing and layers can also be controlled within your viewports to get the visual you require.

Read up on xrefing in the help file also, as this will explain the differences between attach & overlay.

I would certainly advise you use xrefing, even more so as you mentioned other cad user is not very experienced, They will most likely mix layers on your drawing for each level. Making a giant bowl of spagetti, for you to sort out and repair. That is something you will want to try and avoid.

So do a few tests and a little reading to ensure you get a good idea of how the xrefing works. It will save you some potential grief at a later date.

If you get stuck, post your query in the swamp and you will get plenty of help.
Your in good hands here